irish kopite

April 19

14 hours ago, \'Appy \'Ammer said:

FA Cup file released today. Here is a screenshot of the neutral club ground semi finals.

And here is an example of a schedule that includes a fifth round replay and the FA Cup final being the last match of the season. AS IT SHOULD BE !!!!

Your timing is excellent given recent announcements!

January 31

3 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Also I just wanted to thank every one of you for participating and contributing to this thread I found theorizing about a "simpler" formation and reading through all the replies has actually been a rather grounding zen-like experience. When I decided to write about this subject I was in a weird headspace where I felt very lost on what I wanted out of the game, tactically ect. And I had a bit of falling out with the style I was using before this. Not getting a lot of satisfaction from it especially because the feedback from the boardroom hasn't been the best (I missed out on Champions League spot by one point and thus was given an ultimatum to win 9 points in my next 5 games in my Real Sociedad save ). Now I'm at a bit of a crossroads having created two splitting saves: one where I accept the ultimatum and fight for my job next season, and one where I refuse and perhaps accept the Leeds job, or even go back to my Braga save. Except I really love my Basque save. I think I actually find it hard to manage without the Basque players limitation (self-imposed in Sociedad's case). I guess there is just something comforting about having a limit on who you can scout and sign. Things just become too chaotic and stressful for me without such a transfer limit. I would never be happy with the players I already have and just keep chasing the next best replacement. At least that's how it's been in previous FM saves before I fell in love with Basque region.

I guess my experience with tactics has been similar. I was always chasing the next best tactic. They have been getting more and more complicated. Needlessly so. Until I realized that I wasn't having fun. So this is where I got the idea to go to something "simpler", a good old 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 maybe. And have to say so far it's been a rather liberating experience! Although I'm still working hard on trying to simplify things by limiting the number of instructions and exotic player roles. Old habits die hard I guess haha.

I've run "Bootroom" saves over many editions as Liverpool manager. I try to impose a clear way of doings things on the basis of what would the Bootroom do if they were around today?

1. Tactical style.

2. Training sessions focusing on small- sided games which emphasize an aspect of the team's approach. Like pressing the opponent, playing from the back, keeping the ball etc. Ok there's a bit of imagination here but read the descriptions in game! I also look for simple sessions which focus on the basic skills of first touch, passing, finishing etc. I avoid tactical sessions in keeping with Bootroom tradition.

3. Scouting- I'd focus on European players in the 20- 23 age bracket mainly with an occasional star signing. I don't hoard wonderkids at all with the exception of homegrown British and Irish youngsters. So if there's no homegrown talent coming through the underage teams or elsewhere in the league, I'll cast the net wide over Europe and S America.

4. Try to persuade retiring players to go on the coaching staff once I retain the current staff on becoming manager. Shankly did this in 1959, arguably the most important decision in the club's history along with his appointment. I don't have much luck though in persuading former players to go on the coaching staff.

5. I also use Appy Ammers European competitions file which recreates the old knockout competitons from the 80s and includes the old European Cup. I absolutely despise the current formats.

I tend to find doing the above things keeps me interested in a save. I dont manage any other clubs.

January 31

4 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

Nice thread if I may so. Looking back I can definitely see some commonality now between Paisley's Liverpool setup and that of Clough (Forest) and maybe even Fergie and Wenger, Utd and Arsenal respectively.

It was that reference to the right side of the (442 / 4411) formation being configured slightly differently to the left. E.g. John Robertson left (winger); Martin O'Neill right (tucked in); Giggs left (winger), Beckham right (tucked in); Overmars left (advanced), Parlour right (tucked in). Plus the opening post to this thread Barnes left (winger), Houghton right (tucked in). All of those successful sides defying the myth that all 442's were equal and that English sides always had an archetypal winger both sides and a big no.9 target man up top. Of course some teams did but as is being shown, many of the better ones were always far more nuanced and tactically aware than are given credit for.

Also I would like to give @irish kopite a huge shout out. His longer reply 3 or 4 posts above mine is absolute quality.

4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 can be far from the stereotype its portrayed as. Yes, definitely I agree with you. A big feature of 4-4-2s of this era was asymmetry, different angles of attack, different runs etc. As you say, this was also a big element of Ferguson's and Wenger's 4-4-2s.

Although I think Paisley went one step further in not having that genius left winger like Robertson, Barnes, Giggs, Pires etc. His No.5s on the left of midfield tended to be more creative midfield players than quick wingers. I believe he didn't trust wingers on the sides of midfield and almost as soon as he got the Liverpool job he started experimenting with Heighway's role.

I also understand he was hugely influential in persuading Shankly to play Keegan up front. Keegan was initially signed as a right winger but Paisley saw something in him during training, and the rest is history. Incidentally, this is how the Liverpool No.7 shirt ended up in the forward positions. Liverpool fans of my age don't really talk about No.10s, for us that's our No.7.

As you mentioned Wenger, there's a video of him from the mid to late 00s on YouTube somewhere in which he states his believe that 4-4-2 is the most rational formation due to its pitch coverage.

January 31

11 minutes ago, jc577 said:

Very interesting! I've been trying to crack this for years Could you link me to the material you were reading?

It's an old one but it gave me the ideas to mess around with on my day off. Now I went with a 4-4-1-1 and to emphasize the play out from the back quick break style I had two supporting full backs behind two attacking duties on the flanks. AMC- S with gets further forward and roaming behind a AF-A. It looks good and might do as my European system. Something different to mix things up.

Anyway, Dalglish would drop into midfield in these tough European away assignments so this was my initial inspiration for this system.

Thanks to @Cleon for this thread which was a great learning tool.

January 31

16 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Very nice analysis mate! Much appreciated 👍 A lot of tactical food for thought and quite a few elements that I also agree on in my own attempt to emulate this style.

We've a lot of similar interpretations. I'm not saying I'm definitely right and there may be some FM'ers in the Forums who saw Paisley's teams play? They don't seem to have been around here for some years though @Torskus77 @crouchaldinho?

I think you nailed the tactical style. It's closer in a modern way to de Zerbi and Xabi Alonso, interestingly two men who seem to be among the favourites to succeed Klopp.

The part I've always found hard to get right is the sudden switch in tempo from patiently passing the ball around the back to going straight for the jugular when the space opened up. I looked at some of Cleon's material this morning on using the cautious mentality with a good amount of attack duties to achieve this. I generally don't go lower than balanced mentality and think this is closer to Paisley and Fagan's Liverpool.

January 30

Great thread @crusadertsar

Every edition of CM/ FM since CM 01/02 I've tried to re-create Liverpool's style of play under Paisley. I'll try and keep this post as short as possible. Everything is merely my opinion based on many years of watching old matches, reading what info there is out there and listening to players from that era. I don't remember Paisley or Fagan's teams but I'm a child of the first Dalglish era!

The classic Liverpool style was by and large based on building from the back, enticing teams forward before a quick ball would speed up the attack. My opinion is that the Liverpool Way tactically speaking is misunderstood as a result of the free flowing football Liverpool played in the 90s under Roy Evans and to a lesser extent the brilliance of Dalglish's teams in his first spell. Naturally casual observers will remember the later teams of the Bootroom era which ended with Evans departure in 1998.

The classic Liverpool style was adapted from competing in European competition and really became nailed down in Shankly’s last season after Liverpool were knocked out of the 1973/74 European Cup by Red Star Belgrade.

It wasn't free flowing, it had it's moments alright. But it was designed to win trophies in as efficient a manner as possible and was carried out by some of the most resolutely disciplined players that English football has seen. These players were talented certainly but not all of them were world class. I think fluid counter- attack with a balanced mentality is the best way to describe the style. I also totally agree that there was little tactical micro- managing. The genius of the Bootroom era, and the much vaunted "secret", was in my opinion- player recruitment. Get that right, and Paisley nearly got all his signings spot on, and the tactics dictate themselves. Paisley was the master team builder, the best there ever was in my opinion.

The tactics did change with Dalglish's arrival in the summer of 1977 and the break-up of the Keegan/ Toshack dynamic duo over the course of the previous season as Heighway was pushed up front. Once Toshack began to fade away in 1977, Liverpool's attack became much more fluid and had less of a focal point. It was more 4-4-1-1 in my view with Heighway occupying a roaming role up front (CF-A) and Keegan then Dalglish tucked in behind in a type of Shadow Striker role. Heighway would clear the forward line so to speak and along with Dalglish, Ray Kennedy from left midfield and McDermott, in a very aggressive box to box role, would charge into it. Edit: I forgot about David Johnson RIP, who played in the teams at the end of the 70s and was Dalglish's more established partner before Rush. A different type of player to Heighway, 'the Doc' was more of a hard-working and mobile target man who worked the channels really well and contributed more than his fair share of goals. I reckon PF-A suits him and I've used Nunez in this role in FM24 in an attempt to turn him into a similar type of mobile target man.

That was the template until 1981/82 ( I think this is the era you're aiming for) especially with the emergence of Rush, Dalglish getting older and Souness really starting to emerge as a world- class all round central midfield general who completely bossed First Division midfields. He had no equal from then until his departure in summer 1984. This was the broad tactical outline right up until Rush's departure in 1987 and Dalglish went for some big changes to the style, particularly with the signings of Barnes and Beardsley. His style was more attacking and faster, there was more individual flair and less of the relentless machine like qualities of earlier teams.

I think the formation in the early to mid 80s was more 4-4-2 with Dalglish in a DLF-A role and Rush in an ADV FWD role, emerging as a new but different focal point to what Toshack was. He was perfect as Dalglish's pace and turn lessened the older he got but the more subtle his through balls and brilliant hold up play became. He released the ball at the perfect time. I've found these two roles actually work well together in FM with a fluid team structure and loads of support roles in midfield and defence. AK was a WB-S and Neal a FB-S (his role changed too as he got older and he moved into midfield a lot with Souness to give an extra man in possession if Liverpool built attacks slowly and the break wasn't on). Hansen a BPD and Lawrenson a bog standard CD. Whelan a WM‐S with sit narrower, Johnston same role but with stay wider and get more forward. Souness DLP-S, Lee BWM-S.

Some other key team instructions which I think are non-negotiables to replicate Liverpool's style.

1. I'm going to use some modern jargon! The Bootroom I think were big on compression, vertical and horizontal in order to cut down on the space the players had to cover to win the ball back in the middle third. This comes back to the efficiency of the Liverpool system where small squads played over 50 games at least a season to win a European Cup and were hard work was non-negotiable, "fancy dans" weren't signed. That to me means a mid press with a much higher defensive line, closing down much more and aggression in the midfield area with the defence closing down that dangerous space in front of them- Step Up More. The Bootroom referred to this as "countering", possibly counter- press in the modern jargon.(Paisley's teams were one of Sacchi's reference points).

Opponents were also enticed to go down the flanks and Liverpool used the sideline like a wall (Trap Outside), similar in fashion to Simeone's Atleti. I've heard Souness refer to Liverpool's midfield 4 which he played in as "pinched" when the opposition had the ball.

2. DRIBBLE LESS. Paisley detested fancy dan wingers dribbling into "no man's land" like "blue arsed flies" and disrupting the team's rhythm. Alan Kennedy told me that for years after leaving Liverpool he dreamt about being at Melwood and Ronnie Moran screaming "Get it, give it, GO!".

Also, a common tactical feature of the Liverpool midfield in this era was the use of a shuttler type of right mid paired with a more 'footballing" type of midfielder on the left flank in the No. 5 shirt e.g. Ray Kennedy and then Whelan. Case was something like a winger on Liverpool's right flank in the mid to late 70s but he would rather go through an opponent than go around them. A teak tough little tank who could play. Craig Johnston sweated blood, he was an unbelievably hard working player, if technically limited by his own admission.

3. Hold Shape. I know a bit contradictory with counter-attacking but Liverpool were disciplined and didn't run off forward like "blue arsed flies" when the ball was won, see above. The attacking was done by Dalglish to Rush. Goal. Efficiency, that word again, was the name of the game and if a counter wasn't on, it wasn't on. Liverpool built and squeezed the life out of an opponent with possession football until they cracked.

4. Situational TIs I use are-

Pass into Space, as there's two attack duties up front. This combination of TI and player roles I really like.

I usually take this TI off, drop the tempo and work ball into box if I'm leading. Liverpool did something like this in this period and strangled the life out of a game. They didn't get the machine moniker for nothing in this era. I suppose efficiency again. Liverpool didn't play like this for aesthetics. If Liverpool had the ball there was more chance of them scoring, the opposition not scoring and conceding. Crucially, the pass and move style cut down on the amount of chasing to win back the ball and potential injuries.

EDIT 5. Play Out of Defence. Jesus how did I forget this. This was also what defined the changes from 1973/74 and was certainly apparent in European away matches. As was the pass back to the GK who in this era was permitted to pick it up. Unfortunately this has been outlawed for 32 years, strangely in the same season the Premier League and Champions League began, as if co-ordinated to signify a break with the old First Division/ European Cup tradition. One of football's coincidences. It was a major feature in these matches though as Liverpool would silence the home crowd or drive them mad as they did in the Nou Camp in 1976 with a hilarious exchange taking place between Paisley and left-back Joey Jones over seats being thrown into the Liverpool dugout. (An enjoyable feature of Liverpool legends nights is some of the stories the ex-players tell about Paisley. Although he was a very intelligent man and a deceptively deep thinker about the game, at times cold and ruthless when it came to telling a player he was dropped or his time was up, he was also very eccentric with some hilarious and bizarre exchanges between him and the players).

Roll it out and Distribute to CDs and FBs tends to compliment POOD.

Hopefully my post is not too long. I tried to keep it as short as possible. I hope this might help contribute something in FM terms to an era of the club's history I revere and cherish. I'm something of a football nostalgic, even more so as I get older and the game and in fairness the club moves even further away from its roots, despite Liverpool going through a relatively comparable phase under the soon to depart Jurgen Klopp.

Thanks for starting this topic.

November 10, 2023

It hasn't been going well. The UEFA Cup changes I need to make to last year's file have caused me a headache. I'll need a rethink over the weekend to see if I can make the competition work as I intended.

November 7, 2023

25 minutes ago, \'Appy \'Ammer said:

I can't see it for Group Stage. I've double checked the fm23 editor and it's the same there as well. It seems you have to change the tab to Cup for the Round Defaults option to appear.

That's what I thought. I feared I was missing something. Thanks for checking.

November 7, 2023

Is anybody aware of how to access Cup Draw Environment for a Group Stage?

I can't seem to find it anywhere but is very easily found for a knockout cup round. Ideally I'd like to have a large environment for immersion.

Thanks a mill.

November 6, 2023

Thanks. Yes I think it's the most viable workaround.

I also feel very conflicted about football in the mid 90s. On one hand, I've fond memories of that era. The Premier League was well underway. It was the last few seasons of the champions only European Cup before the competition morphed into the Champions League. The format felt fresh and provided some big clashes in the March to May period. Looking back from nearly 30 years, a big thing for me strangely, as opposed to say the late 80s, was that top level football felt closer as it was televised live. It wasn't just highlights late at night.

However it was television that killed it. Locking out the smaller nations from the European Cup being a harbinger of what was just around the corner.

November 6, 2023

I'm going to try a 94/95 replication, which was the first season the European Cup/ Champions League proper commenced with a group stage. In this edition of my file, there will be dropdowns to the UEFA Cup for those who don't make the group stage. I just have to make the UEFA Cup work.

In reality what actually happened was the champions of nations 24-48 were locked out of the CL altogether and played in the UEFA Cup. I hated this, being from one of those minor European nations, so I'll take the liberty of amending the CL in the earlier rounds.

UEFA Cup and Super Cup finals will also revert to two legged affairs.

I've fond memories of this season and I'm a huge admirer of that brilliant Ajax CL winning team. In my view, they were the last old school European champion.

November 6, 2023

Hoping to release in the next few days. Some minor changes I want to do when I get some spare time. Thanks for the interest!

October 19, 2023

1 hour ago, \'Appy \'Ammer said:

Yes, and that used to be the European Cup Winners' Cup ! I've been reading "A Tournament Frozen In Time" by Steven Scragg. For anyone who's a fan of the old European competitions, his trilogy are a cracking read. And how I wish UEFA didn't get rid of the 'away goal' rule. Can't believe they opted for replays before that rule, and penalties to decide matches, were brought in.

I got the title to my thread in the FM23 editor forum from that book! He has a book on each of the three old comps, great reads.

October 19, 2023

7 minutes ago, USASoundersFan said:

Yeah. Unfortunately.

I'm not sure if this is true as those countries being able to realistically win a European competition is a definite positive. But perhaps you're right.

And I don't think that lower-league teams wanted top-tier youth sides in the EFL Trophy. I'm not sure if they would want top-tier first sides.

My original thinking on the Conference was teams from the Big 5 leagues should be kept out of it but commercial reasons alas mean that'll never will happen. If it did, it may kill off the competition for good.

A third competition is good. The unintended consequences of commercial necessity though is teams from those very same big leagues who may never win a CL or even the Europa have a good chance of winning a European trophy and I was delighted to see West Ham do so back in May, memories that will last a lifetime @'appy 'ammer. That has to be a good thing as seeing the same old teams winning European trophies gets boring.

October 19, 2023

BOOM

October 16, 2023

5 hours ago, Stone Cold said:

Why do you dislike the removal of dropping down to lower competitions?

Well, Ligue 1 was smart. I wish Primeira Liga did the same. We used to have 16 teams in it between 2006 and 2014 and then went back to having 18 teams. 18 teams is too much for such a small country.

Oh yeah good point.

Dull and predictable? In the last few years you've had Barcelona, Manchester United, Borussia Dortmund and Juventus finishing 3rd, and Atlético de Madrid and AC Milan finishing 4th. And also debutant Moldovan side Sheriff beating Real Madrid away. The CL gets predictable in the QFs, but not so much in the group stage. And the new format isn't going to make the QFs and beyond less predictable, imo. We all know that it's going to be the usual suspects contending for the trophy.

I remember that period. I was a kid, so I didn't think about the consequences of fixture congestion at the time, in addition to the fact that Benfica was going through its worst period in history and did not make the Champions League in those years. But if you want an example of consequences then look at the 2002 World Cup. Players like Figo, Zidane and Henry were physically in shambles by the time that competition arrived. There must have been a reason for UEFA to scrap that format after 4 seasons only.

From memory, it was scrapped for a few reasons. The main reason being there were just too many games for the big clubs and big players. By 2002, the globalization of the European game had accelerated to the point that the big European clubs had started to hoard the world's best players. The 2002 World Cup highlighted this and the 02/03 CL was the last 2nd round group stage.

It was also felt an entirely post- Christmas knockout competiton would create even more interest and excitement. Football fans identify more with the 32 team World Cup format and again from memory, UEFA wished to sprinkle its blue-chip competition with some of its gold dust.

October 15, 2023

I think the new Swiss format is a totally ludicrous concept which undermines the integrity of European competition. As Appy says above, they have gone downhill progressively since 1992, especially the European Cup. What has happened to that once great competition is borderline criminal.

October 12, 2023

Just now, hufcpaul said:

Because we are bored of FM23 and need 24.

And SI will release the FM24 Beta earlier than expected as a away of saying sorry, we messed up a bit with FM23!

October 9, 2023

On 07/10/2023 at 15:19, LazgoNNO2000 said:

because it too hard and anyways i was wonder are you going to do editing in FM Editor is when Nations and ECA Breakway from UEFA And FIFA in FM 2024

No. I don't have any desire to create any European club competitions after season 96-97.

October 7, 2023

5 hours ago, LazgoNNO2000 said:

oh it because it going to bug the game

I've no interest in creating the Intertoto Cup.

October 6, 2023

2 hours ago, LazgoNNO2000 said:

wow cool so will you added intertoto cup in FM 24

I don't have any plans to add the Intertoto Cup.

October 6, 2023

1 hour ago, gunner86 said:

I still think it will be closer to 3 than 2, I’m hopelessly optimistic it could be next week, but that’s based on nothing but my own hopes and dreams

SI seem to be more advanced in this game cycle than normal, certainly compared to the last 3 COVID affected versions. I'm with you, I think we'll get the FM24 beta earlier than usual and closer to 3 weeks than 2. Next week is a long shot but I'd be anticipating its release any day from Monday 16th Oct.

October 6, 2023

I plan to test my file when the FM24 editor is ready and I will release for FM24 as soon as it verifies.

I won't be doing any further editor work until FM24.

October 6, 2023

19 hours ago, LazgoNNO2000 said:

hey dude i was thinking but frozen in time file is not working

2023-2024 season was start and it never start qualfying rounds

Hi. Did you start your save in the 2023/24 season using another editor file?

I don't think my file will work with those files or retro databases. I haven't had time to do testing with these files.

October 3, 2023

I bought FM24 this afternoon. The set-piece overhaul clinched it for me as I finally snapped with this module in FM23. Fingers crossed it proves to be far more intuitive and adaptable to tactical changes.

I remember when I read the development blog back on my summer holidays in the sunny Med that the Beta is going to be released earlier this year due to how confident Miles seemed to be about how advanced the development of FM24 was at that stage of the cycle i.e. in late June/ early July.

So I'm going for a Beta release date of Tuesday 17th October, another bloody 2 weeks!!

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Posts posted by irish kopite