[How to soak up pressure and hit a team on the counter as an underdog? [UPDATED for FM24]]

On 08/02/2024 at 00:07, ultrAslan said:

Coming back with an update on my quest to master soaking up pressure and hitting teams on the counter in Football Manager! After posting my original question during my FM 23 days, I've since moved on to experimenting with counter-attacking tactics in FM 24.

I'm excited to share the tactic that I've fine-tuned, which has served me incredibly well against top-tier teams in the Champions League, helping me secure back-to-back Champions League trophies. The screenshot attached shows the setup that has brought my team great success. By setting up with a cautious mentality and focusing on a quick transition play, my team has been able to capitalize on the counter-attacks effectively. 

Here's the screenshot of the tactic that made it all possible:

In depth about the player roles and duties:

Advanced Forward (AF): This player is the tip of our spear, constantly probing the defensive line and ready to exploit any space behind the opposition's backline.
PI: Close Down More

Winger (W - Attack) and Inverted Winger (IW - Support): Flank players with contrasting roles; the Winger provides width and direct runs, aiming to stretch the play and deliver crosses, while the Inverted Winger cuts inside to overload central areas and link-up play. The player I use as a Winger is right-footed, effectively a hidden inside forward, combining flank runs with cutting inside. For the Inverted Winger, it's crucial to have a left-footed player with a playmaker style, capable of spraying passes to the advanced forward, mezzala or the winger in space. He is the hidden playmaker in your team as the DM is marked by the opponent. I had the privilege of playing Arda Guler in this role.
PI: Close Down More for both flanks

Mezzala (MEZ - Attack): Operating in half-spaces, the Mezzala offers forward thrust from midfield, combining with wide players and the striker, making late runs into the box and supporting the attack dynamically.
PI: Close Down More, Shoot More Often, Dribble More, Tackle Harder (the last three PIs were extra, tailored to my player's capabilities)

Central Midfielder (CM - Support): The engine of the midfield, balancing defensive solidity with support in attack. This role circulates possession and offers a passing outlet, ensuring smooth transitions and also an extra late attacking threat when you counter.
PI: Close Down More, Get Further Forward, Dribble More, Shoot Less Often(Dribble More & Shoot Less Often was based on the attributes of my player)

Deep-Lying Playmaker (DLP - Support): Positioned deeper in the midfield, the DLP dictates the tempo from a withdrawn position, providing defensive cover as well as initiating attacks with their range of passing.
PI: More Direct Passes, Close Down More, Tackle Harder

Wing-Back (WB - Support): The attacking threat on the right side as he runs behind the Inverted Winger. He is the lungs of my wings with a pace of 17. With the TI: overlap right, his individual mentality becomes balanced, taking more risks than usual.
PIs: Pass It Shorter, Take Fewer Risks, Cross More Often, Stay Wider, Close Down More, Tackle Harder

Inverted Full Back (IFB - Defensive): A new role in FM24, the Inverted Full Back provides excellent cover. When the team counters and the Wing-Back moves forward, the IFB tucks into the middle to provide defensive coverage alongside the central defenders, ensuring solidity if the ball is lost during a counter.
PIs: None

Centre Backs (CD - Defensive) and Ball-Playing Defender (BPD - Defensive): The traditional Centre Backs focus on defensive duties, while the BPD is given more freedom to step out with the ball and play adventurous passes to start counter-attacks.
PI for BPD: Dribble More, Close Down Less (Dribble more, because his dribbling was 13 and this is a very underrated PI. I saw some goals or assist from this role when the player was literally taking the ball and dribbles his way to the final third and bangs for a goal or passes the ball for an assist. Thanks for the tip @Cloud9).
PI for CD: Pass It Shorter, Take Fewer Risks, Close Down Less

Sweeper Keeper (SK - Support): An active participant in the team's counter attacking play, with his vision he can start a counter from his hands.
PI: None

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In-Game tweaks against higher reputation clubs with superior players:

• For away games, I set the mentality to Cautious.
• For home games, I opt for a Balanced mentality.

What did you do when you were 1-0 behind?
Even if we fall behind 1-0 or 2-0, I switch the mentality to Balanced so that the team is pushing the opposition back and take more risk then the cautious mentality.

Did you use Opposition Instructions?
I chose not to use Opposition Instructions in any of my matches. In FM24, opponents frequently alter their tactics, roles, and player positions, which can make micromanagement exhaustive and overwhelming. While Opposition Instructions can be beneficial, I didn't utilize them in my save game while I was refining this counter-attacking approach. I got this tip from @crusadertsar 

Optional: You can change the duty of a Mezzala from attack to support and the Wing Back on the right on Attack. Remove the overlap from the right TI as this do not change the mentality of the Wing Back. And you will also have an agressive Inverted Winger. So your wings wil be the major threat when you counter.

Key Attributes
In addition to my tactical setup, I want to highlight the key attributes that I prioritize when scouting and selecting players for my team. This strategy is crucial for ensuring each role is filled by the best-suited player, allowing the tactic to function on its best.

 

Underrated PI: Dribble more on a Ball Playing Defender can save your day:

Some example videos of where we win the ball from the opponent and counter them:

 

 

 

How to win a game with lesser possession then the opponent(A picture tells more than a thousand words):

After many years of playing Football Manager, I gathered a wealth of knowledge and experience. Winning against the top teams was always my biggest struggle, and I've learned that such achievements don't happen overnight. Patience and trust in the process are essential. I set a 10-year goal for my Galatasaray save to win the Champions League, and after 5 years, my squad was perfectly assembled with the right kind of players. The provided screenshots and example videos showcase the fruits of many years of dedicated team building – it really does pay off.

I would like to extend my special thanks to @Cloud9 and @crusadertsar for their knowledge on the counter attacking systems that enable smaller teams to take on the elite. Also, a heartfelt thanks to @Cleon and @Rashidi for their in-depth content, which has greatly enhanced my understanding of game mechanics. 

What happens when you try playing on positive mentality against top teams? 

[Building around an enigmatic 10]

Do you think Szoboszlai would be a good 10 to build around? 

[Mastering the low block, an offensive approach?]

What do you see as weaknesses of the tactic? 

[How to get wide players to cut in]

Can anyone share what's the difference between an IW and a Winger with cut in with ball PI? 

[Adding Youth Players to First Team Training Units.]

On 29/01/2024 at 17:27, toiletfootball said:

This means that I can set up mentoring more easily

I think this is incorrect. Putting them in training units does not allow them to be mentored by senior players. Instead, selecting them for a senior match would allow them to appear in the mentoring pool... I think

[Adding Youth Players to First Team Training Units.]

On 29/01/2024 at 17:40, herne79 said:

The main downsides are:

1) Using coaches who don’t have a decent working with youngsters rating.

2) Your youngsters will be on a first team training/rest schedule meaning the first team schedule is geared towards their matches.  So your youngsters may not be getting the right rest and training due to their potentially different playing schedule.

For under 18s Training takes precedence.  Playing in matches is still important but Training is key.  They’ll still develop if you do as you outline but they may be compromised in their development.  Carry on if you like but keep a close eye on how they are developing and change if you see issues.

What do you see as benefits of adding youth players to Senior team training units? 

[What should my DM do in my tactic? Other than AVG rating what metrics should I use to judge his performances?]

5 hours ago, Dr Naysay said:

Added to what's already been said I would look at his passing stats and how his winning possesion to losing possesion stats look and how solid he is aerially.

Because you play out from the back a lot of traffic will still go through him and it sounds like you want him to keep it simple and progress the ball forward either to wingbacks or you CMs but he will probably also need to be a little press resistant with his mental attributes too.

Something like this can give you a quick snapshot of whether he's doing what you want.

How did you create that visual? 

[New football fan finishing my first ever season on Football Manager]

Man Utd should hire you in real life! 

On 22/01/2024 at 00:46, Stephensburg said:

Hi guys! I am a new player here. Just recently finished my first season on FM2024, this is also my first FM game and I just recently got introduced to football by my friend. I always thought that football was quite long and didn't really see how people were hooked by it. A long-time friend bought me the game and just said try it out. I'm quite a fan of Tycoon games and min-maxing stuff in games keeps me entertained.

I love how FM is just super deep and realistic regarding the players. Even though I don't really know much about football yet(or soccer, excuse me if I don't know what term I should use), the management, the number of things to do, like trying out which tactics work, players mood and relations toward you affecting their performance, monthly budgets and transfer budgets while considering what the board and fans want, made me like the game a lot.

I know I'm just barely scratching the surface. I would like to ask what's next? I know I can continue and do 2,3 or 10 seasons more. But what can I do further to min-max my team? What do I do with my head coach's salary? If I negotiate a lower salary for my coach do my club's finances go higher?

I know there are youths that I honestly don't understand yet, and some of my main team star players got angry at me for breaking the promise when they asked the youth to play more. I thought they were already playing a lot via 21s and under tournaments.

Also, one of my backup save files kinda lost the head coach?  It still says before loading the game that I still manage Man UFC but after I load it, it just puts me into a screen where I select a new head coach and asks me to use a profile or create a new one?

Loving the game so far!

 

[Player attributes as related to player roles and duties]

I think OP is just trolling us. 

[Choosing your HOYD, what is the influence of preferred style and formation?]

11 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Mentoring is important for developing players. I believe if they are influenced by the more experience player is based on reputation/squad status and less on their age itself. 

Imo the last few versions, mentoring has felt like a bit of a gamble in terms of the outcome. I now set up more controlled mentoring setups to try to ensure positive outcomes.

Either way you won't see overly drastic changes from mentoring to a players personality. 

Do you start mentoring when they're in the U18 or only when they hit first team? 

[Choosing your HOYD, what is the influence of preferred style and formation?]

On 22/09/2023 at 07:32, Cloud9 said:

2-3 years (until they turn 18) is a long time for the general personality to impact them before you're able to start mentoring them in the first team. 

There's a trick to getting your Senior team to mentor your U18 players. Is that still helpful? 

[keep conceding through balls, especially long balls despite lower line]

I would do two things: consider setting up one central defender to be on a cover role that is marking tightly the poacher or AF striker. Try to have your midfielders to close down their creative midfielders. What do you think? 

[FM24: Liverpool 2.0]

Played a season with Liverpool without transfers on. Won everything that I could except the Carabao Cup as I got knocked out by Man City. We won the Europa league on penalties too against Inter, lucky us. I built my own tactic which allowed goals and assists to come from all over the team and I think I ended the season with more than 5 people scoring double digit goals. The diversity allowed me to do significant rotations. 

Was not able to cash in on Thiago and Matip, and they're leaving on a free unfortunately. 

[FM24 - Positional Play Explained with examples]

1 hour ago, NineCloudNine said:

I’m finding that HB dropping between CBs and IFB moving into a back 3 when the CWB on the other side attacks are both working beautifully.

Less so IWB moving into DM, I suspect because there is a lot more movement involved. In my Liverpool save (which I started purely to use TA-A as an IWB) he seems to spend half the game running back and forth between FB and DM. I’ve had more success playing him as either a CWB or as a DLP-S. Maybe there’s a lesson in there! 

Could you share your formation and your insights about TAA's movement as an IWB vs a CWB? My understanding is that the CWB can go both side and sit narrow depending on where the DM and Wide Midfielder is at. Isn't that more movement than an IWB which is just sitting narrow all the time? 

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

17 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

Yes. From manual:

A maximum of three Tactics can be worked on at any one time. The Primary Trained Tactic benefits from 60% of the contribution towards the team’s Tactical Familiarity, with the other two each gaining 20%. Familiarity rises and falls depending on the team and player instructions set in a tactic and is remembered across all tactics. For example, if a player is tasked with Short Passing in all three tactics, the Familiarity will be higher in that regard, which contributes towards the overall score when extrapolated across all players and instructions.

====

One of the reason why I have the same tactic in three slots.

Thanks @fc.cadoni, much appreciated. It makes sense to have the same tactic in 3 slots to quickly learn it but unfortunately I'm a "middle of the pack" team and want to have some flexibility in applying different tactics against different opponents. What would you suggest I do?

 

Also, would it be possible for a single player to have full role and position familiarity on two very different tactics or do they only have the ability to master one? 

[[FM24] "Increase Realism"- Megapack MAY UPDATE by Daveincid]

20 minutes ago, CrowManager said:

Pretty good to watch the AI do stuff like this

I'm not up to speed here - what's the AI doing? 

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

1 hour ago, Skywalk3r83 said:

Any changes to my tactic? I usually use a preset Gegenpress and adjust a bit here and there.
Player roles are fine i guess, maybe some team instructions I can turn off etc.?

Depends. Do you find any gaps or weaknesses during your matches?

One thought that I had was to change one BPD to a standard CD. 

[Building a mid-block 442 to counter high-press 443 and 4231]

33 minutes ago, lied90 said:

Because CF(s) drops deep enough to link up with the midfield, while also being high enough to link with the AF. Lots of striker support roles just drop too deep to do both as good as CF(s).

Thanks. My initial idea was that the WP would sit narrower and link up with the forwards. However, I guess the tradeoff there would be width on the right. Any thoughts about the CWB creating width because of its roaming PI? A combination of three changes: 1) IWB to CWB, 2) WP to Winger, and 3) PF to CF (s)

 

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

Would it be strange to have very different tactics in your 3 slots? I'm thinking a high-pressing gegen 4231, a low block counter attack 442, and a tiki-taka 433 ala Barca to cater for different types of opponents. 

Does it impact training and role familiarity of your players? 

[[FM24] "Increase Realism"- Megapack MAY UPDATE by Daveincid]

Anyone who has tried this database update - how has it been for you? 

[Building a mid-block 442 to counter high-press 443 and 4231]

23 minutes ago, lied90 said:

I'd probably have the PF as a CF(s), CF+AF is a great combo. Players often don't use CF because of the highlighted skill requirements, but it's really not that important.

I'd change the WP to DW or W with get further forward PI, just to get up the field and wide.

Could you share why that's a great combo?

[Simple crafting of a 4-3-3 DM]

16 hours ago, BadAss88 said:

I was thinking about this 4-3-3, any suggestions?

I'm not sure about my midfield trio, should I choose for a MEZ-A or CM-A? And will he not occupying the same space as the IF-S, should I choose a IW-S there?
And where do I place my playmaker best? DM or CM-strata? On defend, support or attack? DLP or AP? Or no playmaker at all?

• I think either combination works 1) IW-S and MEZ-A or 2) IF-S and CM-A. On 1), you can also put a custom PI for the IW-S to stay wider to create space for MEZ
• I see the Mez as a creative playmaker already so not sure if you need another one in the CM-strata. I like the DLP-S currently as it works quite nicely with the BBM bouncing between the boxes. 

[Building a mid-block 442 to counter high-press 443 and 4231]

I just found out about @Daveincid realism custom database update which I'm planning to try out. One of the most interesting feature of this database is added realism around injuries (i.e. 20% more injuries) which makes intensive counter-press tactics less viable due to the constant sprinting. In anticipation of that, I'm trying to develop a mid-block 442 inspired by @crusadertsar's previous article on the 442. Essentially, it works like a mid-block counter-attack tactic.

Overall: 

• Defensive Phase: Defend in a traditional 4-4-2 mid-block, hopefully overcoming 5 or 6 men forward which is usually what we see in the meta these days. TI stay on feet to keep the shape while defending
• Attacking Phase:
  • Attack can originate from a few scenarios
    • Left FB (FB-A) overlapping down the left and sending crosses in
    • LM (IW-S) cutting in and supplying passes into the final third
    • RM (WP-S) either cutting in or roaming depending on rest of the team
    • RCM (SV-S) arrives late
    • Right Wing Back (IWB-S) provides a ball from deep
  • Other TIs
    • Overlap left and Underlap right to enhance the above attacking scenarios

PIs:

• Both CDs to stay winder to cover Right FB attacking runs or Left FB inverted runs
• DM to take fewer risks

Questions:

• Will my PF and AF who are both on attacking position be too far away from the rest of the team in the attacking phase?
• Should I figure out how to stretch the field on the right as both my WP and IWB sitting narrower at this point? Maybe IWB becomes a CWB instead.

PS: Unfortunately, I won't be using Liverpool in the new save but likely a Tier 2 (Championship) or Tier 3 (League 1) team just using my most recent save to build a tactic.

 

[I'm having trouble with lone strikers...]

3 hours ago, Leoben said:

It is frustrating when the team you choose is basically engineered to play only that formation. I can't play a 4231 as I do not have a no.10 and the club starts will very little to spend. So that leaves me to play a 433, which doesn't bother me as I like the formation -- it's tactically solid and good in defence and offence, well at least it is supposed to be.

Strange. I thought Newcastle has a decent budget. How about a 442 with a supporting striker? I'm sure a 442 can be a 325 in possession with the new positional play feature. 

[What do I need to change?]

4 hours ago, hm86 said:

Do you think having an AM on support would be better or maybe an AP on support, then change the DLP to a different role to prevent to many playmakers? I could also switch the wingers to support?

Agreed on the AM change to either an AM (S) or AP (S). I think it largely comes down to what attributes this player has. 

Yes, I think I would change the DLP to a CM perhaps as there are lots of creators in your team such as the wingers. I also wonder if you want to change one of your wingers to support so that your tactic is less symmetrical and would have some variations.