endlessxcircle

I want the debate, I want people to actually voice themselves (constructively of course), and for hopefully SI to take a bit of notice. At the end of the day I want to see a better game, as I'm sure we all do. There's been a long term problem with this community continuing to voice their displeasure yet still turn around and hand over money for products that quite honestly just aren't up or par or as promised. Then hang for updates and bug fixes for weeks, if not months, just to amend issues that shouldn't have even made release. With the upcoming switch to Unity, I think this is a really good time to re-evaluate where the game is at, what we want, and what the best way to approach that is. Again, you're basing what I said seemingly on the notion that I want 3D removed entirely, I don't. All I'm asking is for the attention to be moved away from this until SI actually produce a game where its fundamental components work efficiently and effectively. There's no point having a pretty looking 3D match to view if everything that a player needs to do before even getting to a match day is cumbersome, or broken altogether. Put it like this. Would you be satisfied with an FM game that had Cyberpunk like graphics, yet had fundamental issues when it comes to core elements with player recruitment, injuries, broken leagues, player registration, UI, etc? I don't think you would. I think like most of us you'd much prefer to have an FM title with faultless (or near enough) fundamentals, a cleaner more user-friendly UI, and everything that's promised on the tin to work as advised, even if that means a 2D engine for the time being. I know which one appeals to me more.

I suppose that may hinge on how the rest of the game functions, and of course what people value the most when it comes to playing. I think if the games foundations were executed flawlessly, or near enough, most players wouldn't mind if the ME was 2D only. I could see maybe some of the newer players, and by new I'm talking those who've really only experienced FM in its 3D state, might find it a bit more of a struggle. However, us older players who've either played with text only, or largely grew up on the 2D versions, wouldn't have much of an issue at all. The fact we'd be getting a more polished game as whole would far outweigh a lack of 3D. You raise a good point about the angry comments seen about the match graphic quality, but this kinda highlights my exact point of why 3D is, to a degree, a hinderance. We're never going to get a perfect 3D engine, and because it's 3D and players can view matches in a manner similar to that of watching actual football, it allows for finger margins, an increase in problems, and inevitably complaints. Maybe it doesn't happen with every release, but it'll only take one to get it wrong or have problems and it'll open a can of worms. A poll would be interesting, but also wouldn't tell us anything we didn't already know either. I say that because FM itself caters for a very specific age demographic these days, I wouldn't expect a 15 or 16 year old kid to prefer 2D when they've known nothing but 3D. Where as older players who have experience with text or 2D have kinda been squeezed out in more recent years, this is largely down to the time constraints of adulthood not meshing well with a franchise that's become more bloated and therefore time consuming to make progress through. I'd fully expect 3D to come out on top. Again though, not saying 3D doesn't have a place. It just shouldn't be what the game itself revolves around.

How much of the market is held by Xbox and PS5 players? I get needing, or wanting, to attract players on other platforms, but the main market is held by those who traditionally play the game on a PC/Laptop. Surely if you're playing on a console like the above, and you're wanting a visual football match, you'd play FIFA or whatever it's called now. As for text and 2D formats not cutting it in this day and age, that's certainly untrue to a degree. Full text commentary is probably used little by most, but there's still a solid core of players who retain preference for the 2D matches - I myself am one of those. Much like I've said before on it, 2D still provides the best tactical overview for seeing everything that's going on in a match. It's great for making any necessary tweaks and adjustments. And personally, I also enjoy both the imaginative component it creates and the hit of nostalgia. While I don't quite agree with your analogy, I understand thee is obviously a demand for the 3D side of things. I just don't believe it should be at the forefront of priorities, or marketed as being a primary component of the game. It's the cherry on top of the cake, not the cake itself. Without the latter being strong, the former is kinda redundant no matter how good it may taste (or in a 3D sense, look).

Sales are somewhat of a skewed marker to be using to justify the popularity of a game like Football Manager. It's always likely, and I'm sure history probably showcases this if you go back, but sales of each new release top the prior editions in most cases. The gaming landscape has also massively changed since the first initial FM release and what it's like now, particularly with social media and technology being more accessible to a wider spread of people. The premise of the game would still sell with or without a 3D engine, just as it once did. Which is my point, it's not a necessity for the game to function, to sell, or to be enjoyed, even if many do appreciate it. I'd imagine a real life manager would be surprised by just how much non managing related matters the Football Manager games allows the user to control. Realistically, Football Manager the game is more about being a combination of various roles within the football world itself such as owner, director of football, scout, etc on top of being a manager. As much as SI may strive to provide realism it's never going to fully replicate real life management in the same way. And hey, if a real life manager said player interaction isn't a vital component I'm all for it, particularly as someone that finds it one of the most tedious components of the modern editions lol. All areas should be invested in, but there are areas that also require greater priority over others until they function in an efficient and optimal manner. If this was FIFA I'd agree, but it's a management game within the football world, one that, as stated before, thrived for years on end without a 3D visual of matches. It shouldn't be the focal point of the game, not until the actual fundamental management related components are humming along well. When the core of the game works as intended, then by all means focus on the 3D side of things. But putting the attention into the 3D side first while the functionality of the core experience lags is entirely backwards IMO.

As I acknowledged in my original comment, I'm aware it's already somewhat possible through delegation and such. That said, there's still elements that could be adjusted or implemented within a proper mode. Not only that, but it's one of those things where if it's not in front of you, it can be missed. A dedicated full-blown manager mode that gets presented to players may actually see more people take it on. Doesn't even need to be a seperate mode really, it could simply be a few toggles in the game setup that basically "grey out" all the non-managerial tasks and controls when turned on.

There'd be more to gain from having a true "manager mode". By selecting such a mode it would literally force the player into being exactly that, a football manager. This would mean no control over things like signing your own scouts, coaches, directors, not being able to manage and adjust budgets, scouting is handled by the club, player recruitment involvement is reduced to where you give a shortlist of positions/players who you'd like and the rest is left to those in the specific jobs designed to handle these tasks, etc. Basically, you strip the game right back so the focus is on nothing but pure management and resembling more of what it's like in real life. Which, if SI really want to force the franchise down the realism pathway, makes complete sense. While this can sort of be done to a degree through delegation already, there's still elements where user control still has the power to tip the scale into the users favour more heavily.

On this for a moment. Wouldn't it make more sense to put the majority of the time, attention, and focus into developing the fundamental components that the game itself virtually lives and dies by, and having them function in the most optimal manner possible? The big three that've always been at the forefront of the franchise and make it what it is - tactics, recruitment and development. What use is having visually stunning graphics if the fundamentals lag behind and ruin the general playability? We all know the game can function, and arguably also thrive, without a 3D component. The more the franchise heads towards trying to produce the football equivalent of Microsoft Flight Simulator the finer the margins become, to the point where bugs become more game breaking. Can't help but feel this is a good time to re-evaluate for the franchise and actually have the developers and such earn their keep for once.

Never said 3D graphics needed to go in fairness. What I did state was that it's a bit of a gimmick to draw people in and create something more visually enticing, as such it also creates wider problems because you're going to get people complain about things like the fluidity, the animations, the way certain skills or sequences are played out, etc. We've seen all of that happen already, and it'll continue to happen until it's "perfected". My personal preference is 2D, even through I grew up on text only and have used 3D in the past, I always return to the 2D style because it's smoother, provides wider tactical overview and details, and I enjoy the imaginative element it provides that's entirely lost in 3D because you see exactly what happens. That's just me. I just think the wider aspect of the game itself needs far more attention and it shouldn't have to come at the cost of more emphasis being put onto the 3D side of things. There needs to be a better balance between how it's been handled.

The argument that the current versions are more successful needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. While I understand the general sentiment behind such a statement, it's also not a surprise given the reach the game now has, a lot which was entirely created through the older games and built on through prior titles leading to now. Due to the nature of the game it's unlikely an older title will retain greater popularity over a present day release. Re today's edition being far more beginner friendly is entirely wide off the mark. Maybe if you have prior experience in the game and are returning to the franchise to play it isn't as difficult, but if you're a fresh player it's a far more overwhelming venture. The sheer amount of additional detail and information, combined with a cumbersome UI make it even an overwhelming experience for returning players who've had time away. And having had recent hands on experience with both old and new, there's honestly no comparison to make between which is easier to pick up and play. If you haven't gone back and played CM 01/02 or early day FM titles recently, I highly suggest you do and you'll quickly realise the difference is night and day. I'm old enough without being "old", and it's not that I like the old way of CM/FM per se, it's that a lot of the charm those games provided has been lost with the direction the present day editions have taken. The old adage of "less is more" really needs to be applied more, because at some point, and it's happened already to a degree, it's going to begin to push players away or discourage new ones from taking it up. There needs to be a greater balance between casual ease of use and detailed complexity, whether that's though a single title or a return of a classic mode could be argued either way. PS: 2D style is the far superior match view. It lets you view the full-pitch, allowing full view of your tactics, and creates a much more immersive experience as it allows your imagination to be creative. 3D is a nice gimmick that's created more issues to solve because of poor animations, glitches, and other complications. Sure, it may look nice and give an additional touch of realism but it'll never surpass the sheer functionality that 2D provides/provided. Each to their own though of course.

Maybe so, and there's obviously a lot of water that has to pass under the bridge first, but I do think it's an important conversation to have if we're to have the franchise move forward in an improved manner from where things stand now. Even if for whatever reason the Unity engine stuff gets scrapped, changed or whatever else, the game needs some serious adjustment to make it far more accessible.

As we all know FM25 is going to be seeing a big shift with the new Unity match engine. With this being the case it seems appropriate to consider the future direction of the franchise itself moving forward. Now, I'll preface this with the fact I'm not playing FM24, invested very little time into both FM23 and FM22, and probably haven't really been truly invested since FM12, but up to then I've religiously played since CM 00/01. A lot of my "away time" and sheer struggle to get invested in more recent editions stems from the time commitment now required to be invested to garner worthwhile in-game progress and satisfaction. There's of course several reasons for this, age and life in general being two of the biggest impactors, but a big part of it is also the direction the game has taken with it's approach to realism and desire to be FIFA with it's 3D graphics. The game is not particularly user friendly when it comes to picking up as a new player, and it's awful for anyone who has limited free time or other IRL commitments - even if you know how to play. This is why I think with the upcoming changes to be had with FM25, it's a great time for SI to reevaluate not only what they want the direction of the franchise to head towards, but also to heavily consider what the wider player base would like to see. I know myself that I'd like to see a return to a more simplified experience similar to that of the earlier days of Football Manager, where it catered for a far wider audience. New players could get into the franchise easier, older players with more time constraints could still have meaningful saves with plenty of progression, and the overall game itself presenting and functioning in a less overwhelming, bloated and clunky manner. This has really been driven home by recently returning to CM 01/02 and to a degree CM 03/04. Whether all this is implemented into one single main game, or if a "classic mode" is reintroduced, I don't know, but I do think we're at a point in the franchise where decisions like this need to be made for the betterment of its future. Do SI and the people want the equivalent of Microsoft Flight Simulator, or do they want something that'll cater to a far wider spread of players?

In the same breath you could argue the game thrived more during the slider era, and was far more "pick up and play" friendly for the more casual audience. Not that sliders were perfect either, but in ways they provided a good balance for both the tactically interested or not. I wouldn't say the current state of the game caters to the casual player at all, it's one of the least friendly "pick up and play" games you could possibly get - but that's a different discussion I suppose. CM 01/02's tactic system was by the far the most simplified with player/team instructions, arrows, and then the additional choice to utilise the"wibwob" of things. A return to something along those lines would be interesting with the way the ME is in the modern releases. Maybe a toggle option that allows for varied tactical levels can be implemented, so the player can choose at the beginning a game whether they want a simplified tactical system or a difficult one?

It wasn't perfect, but certainly a step in the right direction until it was canned.

This is where SI have to tread rather carefully moving forward, as we're already seeing a sizeable shift in terms of the demographic that are able to play. Right now the game is a bit of a mess with it trying to be both a game but also, as you said, a simulation. If they're seriously looking to move down the path of the latter then they need to start removing all the aspects that a true football manager has no control over. Outside of a few key staff that a manager may bring on board with them when joining a club, a manager isn't responsible for hiring the clubs scouts, physios, managing finances, and alike. Make it a proper management experience, not the hodgepodge mess it currently resides as that was better served 20 years ago when it was actually a game that welcomed a vastly wider audience. The current state of the franchise definitely doesn't point in the direction of being acardeish or for the casual, it's anything but that, and has been for quite some time now. You can't just pick-up and play anymore, it's more or less a full-time job in itself if you're going to actually reap any benefit out of playing. As mentioned before, the audience has been massively watered down - and continues to be. Older players who work full-time, have families, or other adult commitments aren't really catered for unless you go down the shittier mobile or touch pathways - neither of which provide a true FM experience. It's also arguably one of the worst games when it comes to encouraging new players because of the complexity, bombardment of information, and real world time that needs to be invested to generate gain. As someone that has played the CM/FM games since 00-01, the franchise has lost the magic that made it so special initially. The constant pursuit of realism, 3D elements, and subsequently greater detail, has removed the gloss. Then you throw in the awful UI experience, the gimmicky "features" with every passing year, undercooked editions that feel rushed, I would no longer encourage buying into it every year as I once did many years ago. Really hoping with FM25 and the big changes ahead see SI pull their finger out once and for all. Sometimes i wish there was a true competitor to the franchise to encourage actual positive change with more players actioning their disproval through investing their money and time into an alternative, unfortunately all we really have are the older versions (to a degree), which isn't quite enough.

Well yeah, that's not particularly surprising given the game was far less accessible and promoted back then when compared to now. There's probably also more players these days that abandon the game after a month or two, or struggle to invest the hours necessary to get real value out of the modern versions. The fact CM 01/02 for example still has an active and avid community speaks volumes for a game that's now 20+ years old. Extra detail and realism wouldn't be as big of an issue if it was implemented better for one, instead it's come at the expense of several factors that make for an smooth, immersive and truly enjoyable experience. While SI's decision to bin off Classic Mode was terrible, and an even worse one as you said was to rebrand it to Touch and seperate it altogether, it still didn't quite hit the sweet spot IMO. I'd like to think they'll do more moving forward to include the more casual player, or those who just want to have that more classic experience within a modern day setup.

With FM having turned into this constant pursuit of realism, especially in more recent years, its come at the detriment of creating a game that both encourages new people to pick it up, but to also hold onto long time players that cut their teeth during the more simplistic CM or early FM days. There's no longer anything casual about the franchise, it literally has crossed over into becoming a fully fledged job in its own right if you're wanting to get maximum from it. As someone that's dropped the game many years ago, although have tried on several occasions to get back into it, I recently went back to playing CM 01/02 (and a little CM 03/04 in fairness) again and it kinda struck me just how much more immersive the older games were. Sure, they didn't have the fancy 3D matches (personally prefer 2D anyway), the overload of stats, the player and media interaction, or just the whole detail of the present day versions, but that was kinda the beauty of it - It allowed the player to be imaginative. That's now entirely lost. The game was also far more user friendly, not only in its ability to pickup-and-play but also with the UI navigation. This allowed new users, or those who could only play here and there whenever they had a spare moment, the possibility of still being able to indulge in a meaningful career and save. I downloaded the FM24 demo to check it out yesterday, after the monotonous task of creating my manager, delegating virtually everything humanly possible outside of first team dealings and transfers, and getting through two pre-season games, I shut it down. I felt like I was doing admin at an office job with the sheer amount of inbox material you have to sieve through constantly, not to mention people interaction you still have to engage in despite delegation. The game ironically, despite its increased detail, feels less about managing than ever before. And that's with looking beyond long term niggling issues a user still has control over despite it falling well outside of the scope of a manager. Sure, the older titles don't have all the bells and whistles but what they did have was the core of what the game was always meant to be at heart, while retaining a more user-friendly experience in the process. Maybe this is a pointless ramble, but I hope that SI take a little note with FM25 and the new engine that's forthcoming and use the opportunity to seriously consider that they don't need to jam every possible detail they can into the game. Believe it or not, sometimes less is actually more - even in a game that looks to simulate football management. You might find those, such as myself, who feel pushed away from the modern releases, along with newcomers, may feel more encouraged to get back into, or pick up, the game again.

Appreciate this, thank you. I presume there's a version for FM23 still out there? At this stage I'm pretty unlikely to buy FM24 and have since returned to CM 01/02 for my fix of getting in some casual gameplay. This sort of skin may help however if I opt to jump back into FM23 at some point, even if the general clunkiness of the franchise still remains intact.

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Started back with CM 00-01 and played constantly up until around FM12 - which is where I felt the game started to lose its appeal. Have gone back to playing CM 01/02 in the past on several occasions because there's still a large community for it. Would dabble with some of the earlier FM releases but having moved across to an M1 based MacBook it's quite difficult trying to get any of them to run - if you can even find the game available to begin with. Do intend to try and see if I can get CM 01/02 up and running again though. It's always good to have around, as it's far easier to just casually pick up and play which kinda suits life a bit better.

It's still a game at the end of the day, and as such there has to be a balance - something that has been lost for a number of years now in the search of being as detailed as possible. I highly doubt those who have to deal with people 8-10 hours a day (or more) in their real life job, want to come home and wind down their day by playing a little FM want to deal with ponderous media interactions either. Personally, the franchise was far better without it all. It provided for a better overall gaming experience, which is what keeps players around.

Wouldn't say I'm "micro-managing" anything, having been a long time player it's not as if I don't know what I'm doing or want to be doing. Given the breezy nature of how you think things are, maybe you can load up a fresh save as you normally would and after 8 hours show your progress here? For comparison I've loaded up the last save I played in FM23 with Chelsea (includes transfer updates). I've got 10 hours of game time logged and I'm in September of my first season - or 9 Premier League games in. Running 126k players, across 7 nations, 15 leagues (all playable). Custom DB - Large, w/ current international, players from top divisions and players from clubs in continental comps loaded across South America, Asia, Europe, Africa, North America and Oceania. I signed two players, sold or loaned out 12. Hired one staff member, released none. All responsibilities delegated outside of hiring/firing senior staff and transfers, and some senior team match day responsibilities. I wouldn't say my methods are anything extensive by any means. Edit: Additional context I'm playing on an M1 MacBook Pro (8 Core) with 16 GB RAM.

Various things, as outlined in another post but touch on again. Clicking through welcome screens, staff meetings, filtering through other tedious media and inbox related matters. Assessing the squad and staff on hand, looking over finances, deciding who to sell and buy, scouting players for needed positions and other areas of interest, creating and fine tuning a tactic/s, extending contracts that need to be extended, the process of actually buying, selling and loaning players, going through and delegating all the areas not wanting to manually handle, arranging more friendlies if required, playing the friendlies, and so on. All fairly common place stuff, a lot of which I've done since CM 00/01 but just takes 5x the amount of time it used to. Not hard to be 8 hours in and not having reached the end of the transfer window or so, much less near enough complete a full season.

I see it as one of those cases whee less is more. I understand wanting to provide a really in-depth simulation experience, but there is also a threshold where it actually becomes too much and in turn detrimental to the overall experience. This is now where I feel the game is at. 8 hours to get beyond pre-season or the first transfer window isn't entirely an exaggeration though, even with delegation of tasks. By the time you assess your team, scout, sell and buy players, sort your staff, create and tinker with tactics, deal with all the tedious board and staff meetings, plus the general media and welcome screens, it all adds up. It's certainly far and away from what the game used to be like. Last time I'd have completed a full season in 8 hours or less I'd have to go back to sometime before FM12 (stopped playing for several years after FM12). I'm sure there's ways to reduce that somewhat, but it's not as if we're able to power through a full season in couple of hours like once could do in say CM 01/02. FM has now approached a stage where it's genuinely a full-time job on its own, if you're actually wanting to get proper playability out of it. Might be okay if you're young, at uni or whatever else, but as an adult it's a damn struggle trying to squeeze in proper FM time into general life - unless I suppose you're a full-time streamer and FM is your job so to speak.

Long story short, I'm an older player (CM 00/01 days) and played religiously until around FM12. Since then I've dabbled with a couple other releases (FM16, 22 and 23) but have found it pretty monotonous because of all the bloated and tedious features now in the game. My question is, what's the best way to streamline the current full FM experience so it has more of that classic CM and early days FM feel? I know delegating tasks is one of the more recommended options, but it doesn't quite remedy everything either. The game is still exceptionally slow to plow through, we're talking 8+ hours of real time to not even progress past pre-season or through the first transfer window. With an abundance of tedious clicking thrown in for good measure. What other options are there? Including if there are skins out there that reduce the information overload and provide a more minimal and simplified experience. Would really like to get back into the game without it feeling like a full-time job that you have to push everything aside for to get any value out of.