andrewsgn
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Posts posted by andrewsgn
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Does FM23 still have the issue of not being able to sign staff for B Teams? I remember it mostly being an issue playing in Spain in previous versions. The board wage limit for B team staff was much lower than staff would accept so all B teams would have no staff within a few years after their intiial contracts expired.
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I actually think the HB works OK in the left/right DM slots. They still drop in between the centre backs from a side DM position, much like they do when played centrally. The only issue I've encountered playing 2 DM's is IWBs will not cut inside properly.
EDIT - Just noticed this was FM21 so not 100% sure the HB works in FM21. It does in FM22.
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There's some bugs with B teams that have been around for awhile. B team coaches demand far higher wages than your board will allow so teams are not able to hire them or renew their contracts and end with empty B team staff. I've had mixed results with this. Not sure if it's due to nation, team reputation, or something else. For example, it hasn't been a problem for me managing Schalke but it was a problem managing Deportivo in Spain. You can try delegating it to another staff member but I wouldn't expect much success. This issue and B teams not having scheduled matches really turns me off from playing in nations that use B teams.
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Hello, I'm playing in Spain for the first time and wondering how people manage their B teams. I downloaded a database that includes the lower tiers so my B team is part of a league and has matches scheduled. However, I'm having trouble hiring staff because their wage demands are much higher than the board will allow.
Also, do B teams sign players on their own? Or only if you delegate responsibility? When I play in England I usually manage all aspects of transfers/contract renewals for the U23/U18 teams but not sure if I can/should do this in the same way with my B team.
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I play an offset 4-4-1-1 with a TM(S) and SS(A) and it often defends like a 4-4-2. However, the SS will drop deeper when the opposition enters your final third. I find it useful because he'll mark an opposing DM where a standard 4-4-2 might leave the DM unmarked.
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11 hours ago, cocoadavid said:
I am also thinking about trying and testing a support-duty-forward + shadow striker combo, one in the STCL strata and the other in the AMCR strata.
This setup works pretty well. I used it with Sunderland and beat Chelsea 4-1 Away in the EFL cup. My SS scored 2 of the goals. The SS defends higher up the pitch due to the attack duty so I thought this formation defended closer to a 4-4-2 shape than a normal 4-4-2 with an attack duty in the ST position, which defends more like a 4-4-1-1.
EDIT - To elaborate more on the attacking movement, I used a TM(S) combined with the shadow striker. I think a role like TM(S) or DLF(S) that holds up the ball would be most effective in giving time for the SS to make their forward runs.
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I've never managed in italy before but am starting a save with Milan. What's the story with the U20/U18 teams? Milan has a lot of players at both levels but most of the U20 players are out on loan. What squad sizes do you recommend for each level? Will U20 and U18 both have fixtures?
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Do U21 players count towards the non-EU limit or just players who need to be registered? Also if a player has a second nationality to an EU nation other than Italy, I assume they don't count towards the limit.
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4 hours ago, yonko said:
I feel an urge to manage in Serie A as one of my last saves on FM19. I haven't done it in so many editions that I forgot when was the last time I had an Italian save.
CM'93 Italia stared my addiction to CM/FM series. Parma used to be my favorite in the 90s. But my first love (before Barca took my heart in 1990) was AC Milan with Gullit, Van Basten and Rijkaard.
So I want to bring back the glory days for AC Milan. Anyone got any tips in terms of players that I should target in the first couple of seasons? I want to focus on Italians preferably. My personal preference is to use possession based 433 aka 4141 DM but I'm undecided until I analyze the players Milan start with.
Winter Update Database and No First Window Transfers, btw.
I'm thinking about starting a Milan save as well. I usually play 433 but I think I'm going to try to get Giampaolo's 4312 working with Milan.
This is my first save playing in Italy. Any advice on which leagues to load for transfers/regens?
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24 minutes ago, dokera said:
What Mentality/TI/PI do you use? Is it possible that it affected on CM(A)/IF(A) to create chances and W(S)/PF(S) to score goals?
This is my current setup:
I drop Overlap Left when I use a WB(S) as DL. The WB(D) is something I'm experimenting with as I find WB(S) crosses too much and Taylor is not a good crosser or dribbler. I was also a little vulnerable on this flank with an IF(A) and MEZ(S).
For PI's:
IF(A) - Sit Narrower, Roam From Position, Close Down More
W(S) - Close Down More
MEZ(S) - Close Down More
CM(A) - Roam From Position, Close Down More
DLP(D) - Take More Risks, Close Down Less
FB(S) - Sit Narrower, Take Fewer Risks
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Here's an example of the overload I mentioned a few posts above. By overloading the left we are able to create a goal with a few simple passes back to the right.
Hourihane (DLP-D) plays a ball out to my left back, Taylor (WB-S). Norwich is playing a 4-2-3-1 and are narrow and compact with all but their striker behind the ball.
Taylor cuts the ball back to Lansbury (MEZ-S). El Ghazi (IF-A) is just inside of Lansbury. Both of Norwich's DM's have shifted over.
El Ghazi stops his run and Lansbury plays a simple ball to him. Because the DM's have shifted we have a 3v2 with Grealish (CM-A) unmarked right at the edge of the box.
El Ghazi plays the ball to Grealish who taps it over to Bolasie (W-S) who has a clear shot and scores the goal.
As I mentioned I kind of stumbled into this but it's proving very effective. Granted, Aston Villa are one of the stronger Championship teams, but we've scored 38 goals so far in 15 matches. My AMR's (Bolasie and Adomah as W-S) have combined for 11 goals. My striker, Abraham, has 11 goals and 5 assists. Grealish leads the team with 7 assists as CM(A).
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On 18/06/2019 at 02:03, sporadicsmiles said:
To give a specific example of one of the common ways I do this. I pair an IF(A), FB(A) on the same flank, and on the same side of the midfield I have a playmaker. Attacking down that flank will concentrate 3 players (4 if you have a support role for your striker and he moves into the half space). This will draw defenders to one side, which automatically creates space in the center and the opposite side of the pitch. You then have roles such as CM(A), BBM(S), W(S), IF(S) on the opposite flank to exploit this. A DM who sits and holds to act as a pivot helps. This would be something similar to the top right example in the quoted picture. Fix the force on one side, attack it on the other.
This is very similar to the overload I created by accident. My setup is loosely based on van Gaal's 1998/99 Barcelona team with Rivaldo, Figo, Guardiola, Kluivert, Luis Enrique, Cocu, etc. I set this up thinking the IF(A) and CM(A) would be goal scorers but they have turned into the creators. I score a lot of goals because the IF, MEZ and WB overload the left side so when they pass back to the right the CM(A), W(S) and PF(S) are usually in a 3v2 situation. My CM(A) leads the team in assists and the PF(S) and W(S) lead the team in goals.
PF(S)
IF(A) W(S)
MEZ(S) CM(A)
DLP(D)
WB(S) CD CD FB(S)
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I feel like this was recently answered but I can't find it... Is there any way to force an U23/U18 manager to play players in certain positions without managing the matches myself? My top U23 prospect is an MC who I am re-training as an AMC but he's only played a handful of matches as a sub. He's the highest rated in ability and potential stars so should be a regular for the U23 team.
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3 hours ago, Cleon said:
I'm really surprised no-one is finding this useful or not asking any questions about anything at all.
I really enjoyed how you started at the beginning and are showing the evolution of your tactic vs only showing the finished product. I sometimes struggle with spotting problems and knowing what changes to make to correct them so it's definitely helpful to see you walk through it step-by-step. I think my big takeaway is that I am too quick to make changes without fully analyzing whether or not something is actually a problem and considering how the change may impact my overall tactic.
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On 6/9/2017 at 08:44, andrewsgn said:
I'm having great success in FM 17 using this tactic as inspiration. Playing as Aston Villa, I'm 1st in the Championship after 28 matches. We've scored 52 (3rd in championship) and conceded 22 (1st). We just beat Southampton to advance in the FA cup and lost in the EFL cup semifinals vs Man Utd. Highlights of the season so far are a 3-2 win vs Southampton in the FA cup, a 1-0 win vs Tottenham in the EFL cup and a 0-0 away draw to Man Utd.
The changes I've made are:
- Control instead of Attacking. I started with Attacking but found we gave the ball away too easily. I think to play this tactic on Attacking you really need the right players, which Villa certainly do not have. With Control we are averaging about 51% possession but are still quite aggressive going forward.
- Changed "Bergkamp" to AM(S). I added Get Further Forward, More Risky Passes and Shoot Less Often to mimic the AP role without the added dribbling/playmaker designation. I found the AP(A) recklessly dribbled into the teeth of the defense too often, probably because I don't have the right player for this role. I've found the AM(S) still makes a lot of forward runs but sits back a little more to pick out passes. The support role also has the added benefit of dropping back more to help defend. I find we often defend in a 4-1-4-1 with the AM(S) dropping into midfield while the CM(D) drops deeper.
- Added Close Down More to "Henry" and "Bergkamp". This was inspired by the video @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! posted above. A minor change but I've found pressing the CB's leads to a lot of easy turnovers. I usually disable this against tougher competition.
- Changed "Ashley Cole" to a FB(A) with Run Wide With Ball and Dribble More PI's. This is a minor change and probably makes no difference but I've gotten more assists without the Cross From Byline PI that comes hardcoded with a WB(A).
- Added an alternate tactic that drops "Vieira" and "Gilberto" into the DM strata as a RPM(S) and A(D). This was to address the issue @ceefax the cat posted re: the CM(D) being hard coded to close down more. I usually only use this tactic when we are heavy underdogs or if I'm worried about an opposing threat from AMC. The RPM still gets forward to support the attack but the Anchorman does a better job of shielding the back line.
- They key to this tactic for me has been Scott Hogan. I started the season with Kodjia as "Henry" but he has the Likes to Beat Offside Trap PPM which I find to be a deal breaker in FM 17. Things really clicked when I started using Hogan instead. For anyone trying this tactic I'd suggest somebody with the Comes Deep To Get Ball PPM for this role. Hogan leads the Championship with 19 goals in 21 starts for me.
I'm still getting fantastic results with this tactic. I easily won the Championship in my first season as Villa. Scored 91 and conceded 40 which were both best in the league. I'm currently 5th in the Premier League after 8 matches which is a great start for a team predicted to finish 16th. In terms of the tactic I've only made minor changes from my previous post:
- I couldn't get the 2DM version to work so I gave up on that and now drop the mentality to Counter in tougher games. I've used this version in away draws to Tottenham and Man City and a 3-0 home win over Liverpool so am happy with the results so far.
- I changed the "Bergkamp" role back to AP(A). I really think an attacking duty is best for this position but you need to have the right player, which I now have in Marco Asensio. Madrid transfer listed him and I managed to pick him up for 9m. He had 1 goal in 4 matches as AM(S) and has 3 goals and 3 assists in 4 matches since switching to AP(A). I may tinker with AM(A) to get rid of the playmaker ball magnet as I've noticed the attack is more focused on the right instead of the left. My "Pires" and "Vieira" have gotten much lower match ratings since making this change and "Bergkamp" now sees much more of the ball where it was previously spread evenly between the three. I'm worried about my attack stalling if Asensio is marked out.
- I also signed Kristoffer Ajer from Celtic and am experimenting with changing the CM(D) to DLP(D) when he's in the lineup. I haven't used this enough to form an opinion on its effectiveness
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I find players with the Likes to Beat Offside Trap PPM get caught offside way too often.
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I'm having great success in FM 17 using this tactic as inspiration. Playing as Aston Villa, I'm 1st in the Championship after 28 matches. We've scored 52 (3rd in championship) and conceded 22 (1st). We just beat Southampton to advance in the FA cup and lost in the EFL cup semifinals vs Man Utd. Highlights of the season so far are a 3-2 win vs Southampton in the FA cup, a 1-0 win vs Tottenham in the EFL cup and a 0-0 away draw to Man Utd.
The changes I've made are:
- Control instead of Attacking. I started with Attacking but found we gave the ball away too easily. I think to play this tactic on Attacking you really need the right players, which Villa certainly do not have. With Control we are averaging about 51% possession but are still quite aggressive going forward.
- Changed "Bergkamp" to AM(S). I added Get Further Forward, More Risky Passes and Shoot Less Often to mimic the AP role without the added dribbling/playmaker designation. I found the AP(A) recklessly dribbled into the teeth of the defense too often, probably because I don't have the right player for this role. I've found the AM(S) still makes a lot of forward runs but sits back a little more to pick out passes. The support role also has the added benefit of dropping back more to help defend. I find we often defend in a 4-1-4-1 with the AM(S) dropping into midfield while the CM(D) drops deeper.
- Added Close Down More to "Henry" and "Bergkamp". This was inspired by the video @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! posted above. A minor change but I've found pressing the CB's leads to a lot of easy turnovers. I usually disable this against tougher competition.
- Changed "Ashley Cole" to a FB(A) with Run Wide With Ball and Dribble More PI's. This is a minor change and probably makes no difference but I've gotten more assists without the Cross From Byline PI that comes hardcoded with a WB(A).
- Added an alternate tactic that drops "Vieira" and "Gilberto" into the DM strata as a RPM(S) and A(D). This was to address the issue @ceefax the cat posted re: the CM(D) being hard coded to close down more. I usually only use this tactic when we are heavy underdogs or if I'm worried about an opposing threat from AMC. The RPM still gets forward to support the attack but the Anchorman does a better job of shielding the back line.
- They key to this tactic for me has been Scott Hogan. I started the season with Kodjia as "Henry" but he has the Likes to Beat Offside Trap PPM which I find to be a deal breaker in FM 17. Things really clicked when I started using Hogan instead. For anyone trying this tactic I'd suggest somebody with the Comes Deep To Get Ball PPM for this role. Hogan leads the Championship with 19 goals in 21 starts for me.
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Absolutely. One of my favourite things about the 4-4-1-1 formation is different variations you get in attack.
I'm using a counter attacking offset 4-4-1-1 with Aston Villa and getting pretty good results. Currently 8th in the league and managed a 1-0 win vs Man City and away draws vs Man U and Chelsea. I'm loving the AM(A) role. Grealish has 5 goals, 2 assists and 3 PoM in 13 games and is 6th in the league in average rating. He drops deep into midfield during buildup but makes great forward runs into the box while attacking.
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I'm curious about your GK distribution. I often see people use very conservative PI's for GK's... Roll It Out, Distribute to CB's, Slow Pace Down, Fewer Risky Passes, etc. I've often defaulted to these as well when trying to create a possession system but I wonder if there's a time and place for more aggressive distribution. Do you find your GK giving the ball away a lot? I've used distribute to play-maker with a DLP in the DM slot but curious as to how it works with your DLP in the CM slot?
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- The right back may have a support duty compared to the left back's defend duty. So the right back may get forward a little more. Fine by me as he's up against my attacking left wing, Di Maria.
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There's no need to make changes because my team are doing what I expect them to do. I don't have to (for example) tell the team to Exploit the Flanks because they are already doing so - there's no space in the middle to exploit so my players act accordingly.
Great post and I particularly enjoyed these two points. On the first, many people's first instinct is to think about how to defend a more attacking opposition player. I love that your first thought was about the potential space it opens up for your attacking player on that flank.
On the second, I think it illustrates the potential harm selecting too many TI's can cause. If you tell your team to exploit a specific area it may prevent them from exploiting the space your opponent may be giving up naturally.
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I've read a few posts that conflict with what's written here so just wondering if you could confirm/clarify.
1) Do retain possession and shorter passing reduce width? According to the guide they do but I came across a post by RTH that stated retain possession does not affect width. In the tactics creator shorter passing does appear to affect width but retain possession does not.
2) Does Closing Down change the D-Line and vice versa? According to the guide changing the D-Line does affect closing down but changing closing down does not affect the D-Line. In the tactics creator changing the D-Line appears to affect closing down and changing closing down appears to affect the D-Line.
I know I'm probably getting hung up in minutia but I like to know what I'm changing when I select a TI and I was confused by the posts that conflicted with what is written here. It also doesn't help that the tactics creator screen is apparently bugged in what it's showing us.
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Cheers Cleon. I haven't come across your Invisibles 442 before so I'll have to look that up.
I came across this when searching so figured I'd share the link I think Cleon was talking about:
http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/418651-Community-Project-Recreating-Arsenal-Invincibles
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Rightly or wrongly, I simply view the Retain Possession shout as the Shorter Passing shout on steroids. "Even Shorter Passing" as it were.
The thing is, you can't just kick a ball with less force so that it goes a shorter distance and still expect your team mate to receive the ball. That team mate also has to move - to come closer in order to get the ball without the opposition intercepting the pass. So your team play more compactly - they play closer to each other in order to pick up the shorter passes. Shorter passes are also (usually) less risky of course.
You then apply that to the Team Shape Cleon has chosen. Highly Structured reduces individual player creativity, but also makes the team less compact. However, for this exercise in possession, more compactness is desirable, so something needs to be done to offset this "downside" of your players being less compact.
As I wrote earlier:-
That's tremendously helpful. The piece I was missing is that reducing the passing distance brings the players closer together to receive the passes. Thanks!
What are the best stats for players in a possession tactic?Obviously passing is one, would I be right in thinking that Off the ball movement, positioning, decisions would be good with first touch for strikers.
Cleon answered this in post #72: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/445500-The-Art-of-Possession-Football?p=10613884&viewfull=1#post10613884
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Retain Possession - was originally using Shorter Passing but swapped to this once I properly understood the impact of the team shape and how this helps negate the "downside" (for want of a better word).
Could you explain this piece? I'm sure this has already been answered but I'm still having trouble understanding the difference between Shorter Passing and Retain Possession.
According to THoG's Lines and Diamonds: Retain Possession reduces passing range, lowers tempo, reduces width and instructs players to attempt fewer risky passes. Shorter Passing reduces passing range, lowers tempo and reduces width. I'm failing to make the connection between the differences of these two TI's and your point above about the impact of team shape and "downside" of the team shape.
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*Official* Football Manager 2023 Feedback Thread
in Football Manager General Discussion
Posted · Edited by andrewsgn
Thanks for the response. It seemed to work OK in the German leagues as well in FM22 but was broken in La Liga. Basically you could offer a position in the U19 team but if you tried to offer them the same position in the B team their wage demands sky rocketed to a level the board would not allow. Even top teams like Real Madrid, Barcelona, etc. struggled to hire B team staff.