Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

June 11, 2021

On 09/06/2021 at 14:58, woodyy2r said:

Ozil... are you going to do more on your FC United save thread? I'd be super keen to see what you've been up to. I promised to share my tactically evolution of AS Cannes on there too!

Possibly. Playing an English club and a lower league side are probably the most common request.

I actually made the decision to re-run the save. Firstly, I am not particularly experienced at motoring through the football league system so I learnt a lot during my first run through which I would now like to apply. Secondly, I was using an unofficial update which unbalanced the game. Ole Gunnar Solksjaer got Manchester United relegated playing an obscure 3-1-5-1 and retrained Aaron Wan Bassaka as a striker :lol:

I've become a lot more pragmatic tactically and had to be a lot more resourceful in attracting the right players. Essentially it's almost a pre-cursor to this thread; building the foundations of a football club which took Benfica to the level they are in this save.

If I do go ahead with a thread, I would want to make it as replicable as possible; not relying on getting lucky with newgens or lucrative cup runs.

On 09/06/2021 at 14:58, woodyy2r said:

I'm assuming this is the 3421 tactic mentioned

Good guess! :lol:

Not bad for a semi-professional, non-league side

June 10, 2021

You're also playing against one of my heroes there, Phakamani Mahlambi

June 10, 2021

Wonderful post, thank you for sharing :applause:

Do you mind if I ask you what kind of output you're getting out of the MEZ (A) on the right and what kind of player you're using?

I used to love 3-5-2 variants but have moved away lately in favour of 3-4-3 (ish) variants because I get more attacking output out of a front three plus wingbacks but I still feel there's untapped potential in there somewhere.

Another question, if I may, is how did you do in the league? and - something I'm becoming increasingly interested in - how did you get on in the league above?

June 10, 2021

On 04/05/2021 at 12:30, woodyy2r said:

I would love to say that we started well, however the first 15 minutes, Toulouse were all over us, dominating both possession and territory. Basically pinning us back around our box. This is not how I want us to play. Our CBs are not of a high standard and it was only a matter of time. 18th minute in...

Quickly followed by my youth CB (#3 Sylla who scored vs PSG) losing his man from a corner (22 minutes)

It's a really bad start and whilst we improve a little I'm very upset by us conceding 2 poor goals. We improve for the next twenty minutes and gain a foothold with some possession. I'm thinking about what to change at half-time when in added time...

It's frustratingly similar to the first goal and we go in 3-0 down. Poor defending, 3 goals from only 1 CCC and I'm frustrated but mostly I'm mad at myself!

Tactical Change

I'm mad at myself because in the league vs 4231 I invert the diamonds... I'll explain

The tactics above have the defence as CB(d) - CB(st) - CB(d) and Midfield as CM(d) - AP(a) - CM(d). If you think about the passing triangles this creates in possession with the GK and the WBs. You have 4 'diamonds':

GK - LCB - RCB - CB

LCB - LWB - CB - LCM

RCB - RWB - CB - RCM

CB - RCM - LCM - CM

And with the DLF dropping in I hope to create a 5th in the att 3rd.

However Vs 4231 this setup doesn't work defensively and is wasted in attack. In defence, the wide midfielders naturally mark the opposition CMs, the stopper then has 2 jobs, to both man mark the CF and step out to the AM (potentially leaving the CF in a channel between the 2 CBs). Added to this, the wide CBs on defend duty have a very low mentality (highly structured) so don't get out to the flanks - good for marking the CF, bad for helping the WBs. We have given Toulouses' AM (Rabello) so much space that he is running the game and has 2 assists, and whilst the goals have all come from crosses, it's because we can't keep the ball and are being pinned on our penalty area. In possesion, our CB(st) never sees it - if he isn't marked by the CF he is by the AM, leaving the wide CB's two options to progress the ball, pass to a likely marked WB or hoof it to Ganago, who has proven he isn't good enough to be a focal point vs this level of opposition (this was optimistic at best if I'm honest). Both terrible options and explains our predicament perfectly.

As I say, I knew all this, but I was so worried about Toulouse overloading flanks and having CMs who would help out the WBs (coupled with the fact that we played so well vs PSG) that I overlooked it. So at half-time, we change the defence to CB(st) - CB(co) - CB(st) and the midfield to BWM(s) - DLP(d) - MEZ(At). I push the WBs to Att mentality and sub Ganago who's been useless as an outlet, for Pau as a F9 - more movement.

The 'diamonds' in possession become:

CB - LCB - RCB - CM

LCB - LWB - CM - LCM

RCB - RWB - CM - RCM

CM - RCM - LCM - F9

And we look like... (sorry no players didn't take a screenshot at the time but Sitti, our best player, is the creative force in the Mezzalla(a) position.

Now this might look like a tiny change - but it completely changes how we progress the ball and the questions the AI have to answer. Does the high press Toulouse are playing with mean that the AM or wingers have to leave their man to close down the wide CBs? If so, spaces start to open up. We will be utilising the 6 v 4 at the back now and there should be diamonds or triangles everywhere. But... have we dug too big a hole for ourselves?

Wonderful post, thank you for sharing :applause:

Do you mind if I ask you what kind of output you're getting out of the MEZ (A) on the right and what kind of player you're using?

I used to love 3-5-2 variants but have moved away lately in favour of 3-4-3 (ish) variants because I get more attacking output out of a front three plus wingbacks but I still feal there's untapped potential in there somewhere.

Another question, if I may, is how did you do in the league? and - something I'm becoming increasingly interested in - how did you get on in the league above?

7 hours ago, woodyy2r said:

Completely fair point. I'll do this. It was only because I had been asked.

Thank you for the sentiment :thup: For the record, I have no preference. These threads are always intended to be a discussion and - more than anything - I am interested to see how people adapt these ideas to their own team.

I will copy my answer above into your new thread and respond in whichever you choose :thup:

June 9, 2021

17 hours ago, FJW said:

How would you set up a 3-4-2-1 formation? I ask as it’s such a popular formation in recent years IRL.

That's a really good question; possibly an entire thread of it's own to give a thorough answer :lol:

I love the 3-4-2-1, however it's a formation with it's own strengths and weaknesses and it doesn't necessarily suit the way I am playing with Benfica.

Personally I like 3-4-2-1 as a medium or low block pressing system. In a high-block - such as the system I play at Benfica - it suffers from only having 3 players in advanced positions to press and the double pivot is typically a little deeper than you could afford playing a 3-man midfield in a 4-3-3.

The second 'con' is that it costs me an attacking player. In recent saves, I have been trying to create a 3-1-6 in attack whereas the 3-4-2-1 naturally gives a 3-2-5 attacking shape. 3-2-5 is still a great attacking shape, but it's different to my current approach.

This is not intended to put anyone off.

Actually one of my best saves at the moment is employing a 3-4-2-1 variant but it's a very different side. 3-4-2-1 could be argued to be a very advantageous formation given the state of modern football:

The ease in which it transitions between a 5-4-1 defensive shape and a 3-2-5 attacking shape.
Defensively the back 5-man defence helps counter-act the tendency for modern coaches to play 2-3-5/3-2-5 attacking variants.

Hope this helps :thup:

June 2, 2021

12 hours ago, zlatanera said:

Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I'm curious about your preferences with goalkeepers. Obviously Geronimo Rulli in FM18 is pretty much perfect, what with his Model Professional personality and well-rounded attribute spread for a Sweeper Keeper. But now you have a newgen, Fernández, whom I don't believe we've seen an image of. Is he in a similar mould? Would you prioritise a good passer of the ball over a higher Rushing Out attribute?

Good question - here is Jose Manuel Fernandez today.

He was actually picked up by one of our scouts very young and spent a few years playing cup matches and for Benfica B before eventually taking over from Rulli.

I actually prioritised mental attributes - namely, anticipation, decisions and positioning. Plus vision was very nice to have.

Looking at his development - particularly vision, which is not covered in GK routines - I think the tactical team training served his development extremely well.

As you can see, we had a base to work from but nothing was too high.

Anticipation 14
Decisions 10
Vision 12

The combination of being tutored by Rulli, Tactical team training and Sweeper Keeper goalkeeper training, appropriate game time and the Benfica coaches/facilities served him well.

Every now and again I'd use individual training to correct an imbalance but generally it was fairly straight forward to let him develop.

June 1, 2021

13 hours ago, FJW said:

Any PI’s on the 3-4-3 diamond?

Do you think it would work as well using a slightly less gung-ho ‘Attacking’ mentality?

Again, fairly minimal:

Goalkeeper distribution to centre backs
MCR/L and ST move into channels
AM roam from position

Think that's it, off the top of my head.

Yes, I actually think it would work best with a Control mentality. The weakness is clearly defence, so having the ball as much as possible mitigates that and the general formation should be able to control possession really well.

My biggest concern would be in the overall quality of the team, I would re-think if we weren't such a dominant side as the lack of wide defenders is a clear weak-spot.

Enjoy :thup:

May 31, 2021

16 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

You really think FM21 has the worst tactics creator? I would like to disagree. I think it's the best in the series. Why do you think it's so bad?

I find it hard to go back to FM18. Just find it's too easy and primitive. Sure, it's fine when, like your Benfica save, you focus on youth development and growing club finances. But tactically it is much too easy to cheese the system and develop a super tactic that wins season after season. I prefer the challenge that FM21 brings where you have to consistently adapt your tactics to break down stubborn sides. But that's just me.

Yes, of course everybody has their own opinion.

For me, the biggest issue is the lack of functionality since removing Team Shape. Unfortunately users can no longer create simple, perfectly logical systems due to not having the functionality (see Total Football thread). Almost every time I try to create anything in the recent tactics creator I end up with varying degrees of compromise for no logical reason.

Right now I am interested in a lot of the ideas coming out of Germany where you have lots of sides playing well-organised, collective systems. In FM2018 I can set a structured team shape to give me that well-organised system and then lots of Support duties to get the team playing as a collective. If I do the same in a new FM then I can only use the Support duties, then I am labelled Fluid and I understand that is only a label but it's just not what I want.

Actually at this point, I would not want to go back. I would like to see the removal of Team Mentality and Duties. Instead I suggest you choose your formation, roles and then select your individual mentalities. Team mentality would simply be a description, based on the combination of individual mentalities you have selected, perhaps with a preset of suggested TIs which are customisable. To me, doing this the other way around puts the cart before the horse. Building tactics from the bottom up would be far more realistic and give you infinitely more possibilities.

:kriss:

16 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!the tactical ideas/principles in this thread have been great to read about and learn from. The fact that you are in the process of bringing a 3rd generation of young players through is also a massive achievement. What's your process for recruiting and developing so many talented young players?

Good question. It's quite a long answer but you should hopefully find everything you need in the earlier content of the thread

Long story short, I'm typically focusing on:

Finding the best raw talent available
- Through my own academy
- Through feeder clubs
- Through extensive scouting
Creating conditions for them to develop
- Maintaining club facilities
- Hiring high quality coaching staff
- Having tutors available early
- Ensuring they have enough game time at the correct level
- Monitoring progress every 3 months and adjusting accordingly

My approach has always been to produce intelligent, technically capable, well-rounded and versatile players who work hard and have a good personality.

You actually don't need the highest ability in the world. I've been surprised how much I can get out of a 3-star player. See earlier posts about Luis Pinheiro, Pedro Rodrigues, Goncalo Oliveira in this thread. They all came through with the original golden generation and peaked at 3-star potential but Luis Pinheiro is entering his 10th season at Atleti having made 300+ appearances, Pedro Rodrigues played 200 Premier League matches and captained Arsenal and Goncalo Oliveira generated £100m+ in transfer revenue over his career and scored 150+ goals for Milan, Real Madrid and Bayern.

As a result, many of the guys who don't make it into our teams go on to have good careers elsewhere. As for the volume, you've got to be organised and create a production line. I typically hire 11-18 new young players every season. Say we call it 15 and say I've had 12 seasons to produce players (given more recent players are still in the academy), that's 180 so slightly over half are making it through to top flight leagues.

15 hours ago, john1 said:

Wait? Newcastle Utd got to CL semi final?! and impressive 28 goals in over 2 legs against Man Utd and Newcastle.

Yes! :lol: Newcastle are a cool story in this save. Rafa Benitez got them relegated in 2019 but then Didier Deschamps took them back up and got them back into the top 6 within a few years. Looks like they must have had money from somewhere as they've spent upwards of £100m every year for a decade.

6 hours ago, gokalpcakir1 said:

are you using any pi

Nothing particularly fancy, just goalkeeper distribution and move into channels on the central midfielders/attacking players off the top of my head. Roaming on the AMC also :thup:

May 30, 2021

5 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Any chance of you giving the more recent game (fm21) a chance and developing some tactics there?

Eventually I am sure I will be forced into it by my database getting further and further out of date. At the moment I am stuck in a trade-off of old database but better tactics creator vs current database with a very poor tactics creator. I've tried a couple of times with demos and even actually purchased last year's game but never managed to find a system I was remotely happy with. Hopefully it's addressed eventually in a future version. The main reason I am playing is an interest in the tactical side of the game and recent versions just don't cut it.

It's already getting difficult to find new saves. Hence the longevity of this save!

May 30, 2021

35 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

Love this thread so it's great to see new updates even at this stage. Keep them coming!

Thank you for the kind words :thup: Glad to hear people still enjoy as the updates are a little harder to write retrospectively and keep the tactical ideas fresh.

May 30, 2021

1 hour ago, gokalpcakir1 said:

I'm trying to play fm21 on the same lineup, but I'm skeptical about the instructions. Any suggestions for fm21?

More recent FMs have lost some of the functionality that we had through Team Shape up until FM2018 which makes life more difficult.

My advice would be to grab a note pad and pen and roughly map out what you want the individual mentalities to look like across the team. For example, if you're trying to re-create the system above you might go for something like:

                   Positive
Attacking          Attacking          Attacking
         Attacking           Attacking
                   Positive
    Positive       Positive       Positive
                   Positive

Or even up that to Attacking and Very Attacking depending on how you judge the number scale.

Once you've decided on that, use the Tactics Creator to try to create that. You most likely won't be able to get exactly what you want but you can try to get as close as possible.

People had a go in the Total Football thread I made last year. I am not sure if anyone ever actually managed to get there but it's a good starting point.

Unfortunately the FM Tactics Creator works back to front in that player's individual mentalities are derived from their Team Mentality and Duty rather than simply allowing managers to set the individual mentalities of their players.

Good luck :thup:

May 30, 2021

Juanma Xavier's first Benfica goal :applause:

2031/32 Update

Until weeks before the 3031/32 season, we expected this season to be our last at the Estadio da Luz.

At the same time we had a squad of players in the prime of their careers.

The plan was to have a bit of fun and put on a show to celebrate the final year at the Estadio da Luz and manage the transition from one generation of stars - Costa, Valentim, Alves, Guimaraes - to another - Xavier, Teixeria, Serrano, Cesar etc.

Despite the disappointment of the planned stadium falling through weeks before the start of the season, we decided to go ahead with the show :cool:

My idea, was to bring together a combination of the collective, high-intensity pressing and high-tempo possession played in earlier seasons, with the 3-4-3 diamond.

The idea was fairly simple:

The centre forward to occupy opposition defenders and act as a focal point for the attack.
Two high and wide wingers.
A midfield diamond.
A 3-1 diamond to build up from the back
Leao in an completely free role.

The mentality structure was:

        15
17      17      17
    17      17
        15
  15    15    15
        15

The shape also allows us to seamlessly rotate in the most talented young players at the club.

Results were spectacular. I actually think we nearly broke the match engine :lol:

I actually think we nearly broke the match engine :lol:

Ultimately we stormed our way to our 13th Champions League title, equalling Real Madrid.

All the while, playing some spectacular football :applause:

:applause:

Off the field, sponsorship is down - I assume having not won the Champions League last season - however shirt sales are now up to nearly £100m with the overseas expansion clearly paying dividends.

Perhaps most importantly, we're having another go at the stadium.

Whilst the Portuguese league finally joined the "Big 5".

On a sad note, the club waves good bye to two legends.

Both to Manchester City who are starting to look like a Benfica retirement home :lol: It's pretty much only them and Manchester United, and occasionally Chelsea, that can afford any of my players.

There we go. With that you're up to speed on the save. Next season is going to look very different. Excited to bring through a 3rd generation. Have a few ideas in my head and a bit more free time over the next couple of weeks to make updates more tactically focused :hammer:

May 30, 2021

After nearly a year away, am finally back at home with some time to relax and get in a bit of FM.

Internet connections in remote corners of East Africa mean my updates have fallen a little behind. I'm going to do two back-to-back updates to catch up. I actually played this season a couple of months ago so apologies if this is vague/brief.

Season 2030/31 Update

97 Caixa Futebol Academy graduates are now playing in the top leagues across Europe plus we are playing an entirely academy produced team ourselves and a majority academy produced squad.

Transfer wise - last time I spoke about being at a cross roads with a a few of the squad reaching the age I should think about selling and an academy side which just won the UEFA Youth League and looked stacked with talent.

After much deliberation, I decided to extend many of the existing first team and to sell on some squad players in order to make space for the academy guys to come through.

The academy players need to develop and are some way off the level we now play.
- This is much more difficult at a £1bn super club than it was in 2017 on the fringes of Europe.
At this point it's only really Premier League clubs who can afford the likes of Valentim, Costa, Alves etc who are approaching the time to sell before their value drops off. This year, there was low interest/activity from them. Barcelona and Real Madrid bids are consistently lower so I decided to sell some of the younger guys who I was not sure would quite make our first team.
The big decision was Leandro Pereira. He and Braima Alves are the best left backs in the world and having both at the club is overkill. I am pretty sure he'll overtake Braima soon but the state of the transfer market meant Pereira was the far more attractive sale.

This took the club over the £1bn mark for the first time. Given all of these are future transfer fees we should stay there for the foreseeable, until we can finally invest in the stadium.

As an Arsenal fan, I feel some interesting echos of some of the later Wenger squads. Mainly in terms of a few slightly too idealist decisions throwing out the balance of the squad.

Firstly, as mentioned before it has taken until now to replace Gedson Fernandes.
- Letting Gedson leave 2-3 years ago to embark on an unsuccessful experiment to show-horn another creative midfielder into the side was a mistake.
Similarly now, letting Jota and Umaro Embalo leave and also replacing them with creative attacking midfielders also cost us a bit of directness in attack.

Valentim, Lisboa and Costa are all creative playmaker types. All would ideally like to play at 10 but Lisboa can play False 9 or wide, Valentim and play False 9, wide or deeper in midfield and Costa can play wide, in midfield or as a deeper playmaker as deputy to Dantas.

In a slight formation shift, I decided to try playing Costa a little deeper, and moving Lisboa out onto that flank and playing a strikerless 4-3-3 rather than 4-2-4.

This year was an experiment. I wanted to try using a 4-3-3 formation, to create the 3-1-6 attacking shape I have been using for the last few years.

It meant our defensive shape shifted from 4-4-2 to 4-5-1, which I am indifferent about.
It gave an extra man in midfield.
Costa played a more comfortable role, but Lisboa was slight more out of position.
I was interested to see how Leão in a strikerless system with space ahead of him rather than the man to play off.

The 4-3-3 becomes a 3-1-6 in attack by:

The half back drops between the centre backs to create a 3
The Deep Lying Playmaker sits deep creating the 1, and also a diamond to out-play the opposition press.
The wingbacks, Mezzala, Shadow Striker and Inside Forwards push forward creating a 6 man attack.

Overall it was a very good season, but ultimately we did not win the Champions League which is currently the marker of success.

In domestic cups and easier league games, we used a more structured version of the same shape.

We have some exciting talents coming through here, many coming from last year's UEFA Youth winning squad.

Serrano is an electric winger who is superb on the left and I am trying to develop to cut in off the right.
César is a very composed half back, central defender or deep playmaker.
Mahao also has first team potential at centre back.
Xavier and Teixera are possibly most exciting but I am trying to be pragmatic. Somehow we have an absolute production line of creative midfielders but I really want to find balance.
Cho Hyun-Jin, Sow, Carvalho, Barbosa and Sousa are all looking like good squad players or could command decent fees.

As the season went on, I experimented with Xavier, Teixeira and Serrano coming into the first team.

This time, we stay in 4-3-3 but with a assymetric variant of the 3-1-6 in attack.

Alves plays deeper and comes inside to create a 3 with Kouassi and Soares.
Dantas is again the 1 as the deeplying playmaker, this time at the base of the midfield.
Serrano, Nkosi, Xavier, Teixeira, Lisboa and Leao all drive forward creating a 6 man attack.

I actually loved this shape, however with the caveat that it was only employed against weaker sides when the league was won. My one reservation is that my central midfielders are not creating the same attacking threat as inside forwards but I want to continue to experiment.

O Capitão

:applause:

From now on I want to start saving these each season. It's difficult to compare, not having the older ones, but looking at the financial reports or merchandising is growing quite rapidly, particularly over-seas sales. This is one year into the push to establish international partnerships in US, China, Japan etc.

Apologies again for the rushed post and lack of match engine analysis. I am trying to quickly update to get on the same page as the actual save.

May 20, 2021

I really enjoyed reading this thread; particularly the use of video and the match engine screenshots. Well done and thank you for sharing! :applause:

Like many, I have become increasingly fascinated by the 'German school' of managers currently dominating football. I'm in East Africa at the moment and there's a lot of German football shown on TV due to a football-mad population and it's a really interesting league.

Previously I had thought that the league was 'press, press, press', but there is far more too it than that. Sides do certainly press and it's extremely well organised but not necessarily high all of the time.

In the same way you identify formations being flexible, I am noticing that the playing style for someone like Nagelsman for example is more flexible than for say Klopp or Guardiola.

I notice some principles are pretty constant, such as:

Very collective, well-organised defensive shape
Often building from the back but in a more direct way than other leagues
Structured well-organised attacking shape

However the how high they press and how directly they attack can vary depending on the game, similarly to the way that you identify formations changing.

I am still playing FM2018 so I am able to use Team Shape so for me I would be setting my formation and using lots of Support duties to create that collective playing style and a Structured team shape to create that organisation (rather than giving individual freedom in more fluid shape). Then use different team mentalities to adapt the pressing intensity and directness on a game by game basis.

My comments are more broadly related to the likes of Nagelsmann, Tuchel, Rose, Favre and co. rather than the Red Bull style (which you seem to have nailed).

I love the 4-2-4 shape by the way :applause: did you go for 2 centre forwards and 2 inside forwards?

May 11, 2021

On 04/05/2021 at 14:11, zlatanera said:

That might be worth a shot, actually. I left it out of my initial post but in terms of merchandising my Roma side, after that prolonged and ongoing period of success, brought in €154m and €170m in consecutive seasons. Man Utd on the other hand were around €30m. Creating my own superstars is certainly an element in that, but I also have a commercial affiliate in the Chinese top flight, and multiple partnerships in the US whereas at United I had 0 affiliates full stop.

A problem exclusive to Roma though is that we’re nowhere near close to filling the Olimpico and FM(19, at least) doesn’t offer the chance to “do a Juventus” and build a smaller, better one.

I've played a little way ahead and can confirm that commercial partnerships with feeder clubs does seem to have a fairly noticeable effect on merchandising income.

I have signed partnerships with:

FC Tokyo
New York Cosmos
LAFC
Shanghai

After around a year we are recording higher merchandising revenues in February/March than we have in earlier seasons after winning the Champions League.

We have signed a new TV deal which is around £64m per year (up from 50something before) however no progress on sponsorships.

I'll keep an eye on it and post some screenshots when I get to a reliable internet connection if you're interested :thup:

May 4, 2021

11 hours ago, zlatanera said:

On FM19 so potentially irrelevant to anyone actually keeping up with the latest versions of FM, but I notice a similar issue with sponsorship. A year after winning a League and Champions League double with Man Utd we took €288m in sponsors. At Roma with 7 consecutive Serie A, 6 Champions League (5 consecutive), and basically everything else every year for the period 2019-2025 we took a mere €81m. Serie A is ranked 3rd in the world, Luka Jovic just had 49-goal season and I'm not not making big transfers (only 3 over €40m as the academy is strong, but one of those was €82m on Dayot Upamecano). €210,000/week is our highest salary (well, I'm on €325k/week!) yet we're still projected to make a loss every year until I sell a bunch of 22-year olds and take in around €100m prize money per season.

Then again, maybe that's realistic? By all accounts Ed Woodward at United is considered to be a genius at selling advertising, like an analogue version of Google / Facebook, City and PSG are blatantly fraudulent and every other club involved in the ESL plot is making absurd losses (in a just world, Barcelona would get to enjoy the rest of Messi's career before having to drastically downsize to pay off those €1bn debts, but most likely the Champions League reforms and making the Qatar branding on the shirt bigger will see them become too big to fail). Bayern are the exception in that they've apparently got a commercial operation that at the very least is on the same scale as United's, without selling out to despots or rentier capitalists.

As an aside your goalscoring numbers are insane. My saves' success would look like cheating to some people yet my record is 199 goals in all competitions with Ajax (admittedly that's exceptional, as it was first season with no transfers), with 49 goals in a season my record for an individual player (although I usually pursue a very heavy rotation policy).

Interesting. Thank you for sharing :thup:

It's more difficult than I thought to organically create a self-sustaining 'super club'. Even without major transfer fees, with (reasonably) modest wages and a massive stadium it's difficult not to rely on player sales in order to operate at a profit.

It's very fun, but after a few seasons with PSG following the 'galactico' signings of Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi that I don't think it would benefit my Benfica approach.

The benefits are clear:

The entertainment/sentimental value of playing Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi alongside each other and simply enjoying their talent before they retire.
- Personally I also enjoyed the tactical element of accommodating aging superstars.
Massive amounts of sponsorship and commercial revenue they bring in.

The main negatives are:

There is no resale value due to their age.
In the context of Benfica they would absolutely abolish our wage structure.

I initially thought it may be more workable to look at players around 23-24 years old to essentially:

Offset the transfer fee against a resale value
Offset wages against increased commercial revenue

However the issue I could not get over was my wage structure. I identified a suitable target at Barcelona, had an world-record breaking offer accepted however would have to pay more than twice the wages of current top earner, Tiago Dantas. Not to mention then needing to increase the wages of the rest of my top earners quite considerably.

It would be a tighter call if the academy stops producing but right now we have another really talented batch coming through. Interesting you mention Bayern, as they seem to be a great example of a club operating on a middle ground. I've always admired their approach to the transfer market.

Ultimately I think the commercial revenue is largely out of my control. One thing I have thought of is signing commercial partnerships with Feeder Clubs in US/China/Japan as I have exhausted the options for youth intakes. Not sure that'll have a huge impact though. Will obviously have another go at the stadium but that's now years away.

May 3, 2021

On 25/04/2021 at 23:09, woodyy2r said:

Okay, so change of plan, and more on theme... Now Ligue 2, AS Cannes are drawn against some even bigger boys.

\

Just to put things into a little perspective and why this is still a huge, huge gap...

Just turned professional (yes French football is not very well funded at the lower levels) and with the lowest avg attendance in Nacional (T3) and Ligue 2 (by some distance), with mounting debt (admittedly coming down due to the £4m TV revenue in Ligue 2 for the year) our wage bill is a whopping £34k pw

A whole 14 times less than PSGs top earner

Tactics

For a few years now we have played a version of 352 or 3412 - lately 3412 to great effect, highly structured, standard or control aiming for a 325 / 3232 in attack. Of course I tweak this a little for this match

Using the wonderful mentality calculator from @fmFutbolManager, we look like

Limiting space between the Defence & Midfield and Midfield & Attack, with mentalities. Using a very low mentality to try to make sure these very outclassed players try to do the simple and easy thing.

TIs

More direct passing and pass into space - I hope is fairly self explanatory. I don't usually have these, but a given as we want to transition quickly in this match

Play out of defence - My forwards barely won a long ball in the Nacional, they definitely won't against PSG. Get my GK to distribute to the back 3. We will have a man over (see opposition analysis)

Look for overlap - I need some threat and width, I use this to increase the mentality of my wing backs alongside the additional ME benefit of getting them into the game more.

Close down more - Defensive mentality drops the d-line hugely!!! 2 of my 3 defenders are from my youth team. They are okay [coach says 'well suited to Nacional football (T3)] but not good enough to play low block vs PSG. Also what's the point in flooding the midfield with mobile and defensive minded players if you aren't going to get them to press!

Opposition Analysis

Carlo Ancelotti has returned for a second spell at PSG, still playing his not overly expansive 442

Main threats - our flanks. We concede goals in the league when teams overload my flanks with a full back and winger and my defender or midfield can't get across to help. This is likely to be magnified here, as in a 1-on-1 my wing backs will not come out well - otavio being an IW is good and the fact the FB behind him seems to be on a defend duty means my only worry should be my left flank - PSGs right, with Fernando Henrique (Winger) and Larrazabal [FB(A)] looking threatening. I set my wide CMs to defend to try to make sure the WBs have cover. Will potentially change to BWM(d) if it looks ropey - although I'm cautious on this as it can leave you more exposed if they go close down in the wrong direction.

Main positives - My 352 has worked very well vs 442 in general, particularly if teams usually play through the middle. We outnumber both the CB and CM areas. We also have 2 up front and a decent AP(a) to feed them who may get some space. There should also be a big gap between PSGs Midfield and Attack and my 3 CM should be able to cut of the supply centrally.

Next the match...

Excellent post!! :applause:

Sorry for the delayed response, I have only just got strong enough internet to even load your screenshots.

Are you playing the same way in the league? Interested to see how you're doing. Also let us know how you go against Toulouse!

I do also intend to respond to your earlier question but need to find time (and a functioning connection) to do so. Particularly the part about players developing from National League to League One (spoiler: and above ) could probably be an entire thread of it's own.

I have been amazed how players have continually been able to step up again and again. There's far less of a gap between leagues than I had anticipated.

On 13/04/2021 at 08:39, woodyy2r said:

BIg thanks for the tactical update.

I have to say that although I have always found the level between divisions when playing English LLM fairly low. I am amazed that some of your players have gone from National North to League one. With the money you made from the cup run, do you now have very good training facilities?

If I get a chance, and if you don't mind, I'll put a little bit of my tactical evolution @ AS Cannes here. I think it's quite interesting as French LLM is very odd, even at T3 you aren't professional, therefore training and improving players to come up the leagues with you is tough. I ended up moving to 3 (or 5) at the back with a highly structured shape - this was inspired by your Caixa save. Previously, I'd always push to get to fluid / very fluid asap as I thought that's how I want teams to play, but my players just don't have the mental stats, and trying to force anything more than flexible on them was causing issues. Reverting to highly structured has been a revelation - with amazing results for a team who is rated 1.5 stars in some positions.

April 28, 2021

Well done, great job! :applause:

April 23, 2021

Bollocks

April 22, 2021

:applause:

15 hours ago, Garrlor said:

Honestly? You have already started the save over a second time, so why not play through until you are the truly dominant team in world football with no one ever having a hope of catching you. See if the new stadium and next generation are good enough to get you there, or press on for even more and a bigger stadium etc.

Just edited to add I was just browsing through this thread the other day and saw how much rubbish I have written in here, alongisde so many good ideas from yourself! I looked at the Guardiola style "free 8's" again and it made me take a look at another Portugese team - Sporting. They start the game with some good wingers, not inside forwards, have a couple of useful strikers and some good options for the free 8 roles. Hell, Fernandes starts off as a backup! I also really like the first team structure, with there being a core first team alongside everyone else being a back up player. Some good players in the B and youth sides and an area to work on with the defence... yeah I think they might just work well when I get the time to play. I wonder if I could ever overtake the master .

Thank you for the comments :thup: I've now played one further season. Wifi connection isn't strong enough to provide an update so I will not give away any spoilers for those following. Dantas turns 31 this year - with no sign of deterioration - and the new stadium is one more year from completion.

One thing that is interesting me somewhat is almost the opposite of the original premise of this thread. It's maintaining the ability of older players into their mid-30s. This is something I have never done before and actually failed quite badly with Cristiano Ronaldo at Paris Saint-Germain. I actually think Dantas has the potential to find another gear. Dantas' physical attributes are high, particularly pace which I understand is quite expensive in terms of Current Ability. When his physical attributes deteriorate over time I am interested to see if we can keep his Current Ability high enough to see them redistributed into mental attributes. We are not far from 20s across the board for Anticipation (currently 17), Decisions (18) and Vision (19) etc. We can easily adapt the side tactically to mitigate any decrease in physical attributes.

Elsewhere in Europe, there have been a few developments:

Manchester United appear to have regained dominance over English football under Unai Emery. Instead of going to Arsenal, Emery won a few titles with PSG before a few La Ligas with Barcelona, a few Bundesligas with Bayern and now multiple Premier Leagues with Manchester United
Barcelona have a very strong team under Marcelino and just won their 6th consecutive title. Real Madrid look an utter mess.
PSG still dominate France under Jose Mourinho although Neymar has gone and Mbappe is 32.
Bayern wrestled the title back of Dortmund after 3 in a row.
Napoli won Serie A after Milan and Juventus have exchanged titles for the past few seasons. Juventus are ageing (for a change).

Most squads almost entirely consist of newgens now.

Regarding your comment on Sporting - I agree entirely. Sporting and Porto have two of the best squads in the game for this type of save, with academies to match. I'd be interested to hear how you go :thup:

April 21, 2021

On 12/04/2021 at 22:01, woodyy2r said:

Out of interest @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! are you still going on with this save? I'm not sure what you've got left to achieve tbh, but this is an amazing read!

At the moment I am a little more pre-occupied with my FC United save but this is still going. I'm in a very remote corner of East Africa for work at the moment. Although I'm having a fair amount of time to play, the internet isn't strong enough to load a screenshot let alone a GIF :lol:

I'm open to ideas about how (/whether to) to progress the save. My objectives right now are:

Overtake Real Madrid's 13 Champions League wins to become the most successful in Europe (on 12 right now).
See the club into the new 100,000+ seater stadium (complete end of 2032 season).
Play long enough to see out the career of Tiago Dantas (he's 30 now).

I have realised I never stick with a save long enough to see out someone's full career. As the youngest of the initial Golden Generation, Dantas' eventual retirement will also likely mean Joao Felix, Jota, Embalo, Luis, Fernandes, Pinto will be finishing their careers too so it will be nice to see how they all finish up.

We actually have another really good generation coming through so it would be nice to send the side out into their new stadium with a 3rd great side and then think about either new challenges within the save or starting somewhere new.

April 12, 2021

On 10/04/2021 at 16:07, Konrad_Box2Box said:

First of all, even though I never commented, I enjoyed reading this thread multiple times, so hats off to @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! for the contribution!

I actually came here to say that cult hero Tiago Dantas is currently playing in his first start for Bayern Munich, let's see how it goes!

Thank you for sharing? How did he get on? I am in a remote location right now on satelite wifi so might have to wait a few weeks to catch up.

Always interested to follow how my FM prodigies go on in real life.

Crazy he's just making his first start. Could have won a couple of Champions Leagues by now if they'd all stayed at Benfica :lol:

April 3, 2021

15 hours ago, Jack722 said:

I always find these types of saves more fun and interesting than when playing with a club with lots of money and playing nice football.

Did you experiment with a lower defensive line or less urgent pressing at any point? And how come you decided to leave the pressing and defensive line on standard?

You're certainly not alone. Playing a lower quality side, playing in England and playing more defensive football are always the most common questions/requests I receive.

Regarding pressing, I prioritise compactness over the depth of our defensive line.

Low block is commonly seen as a low risk strategy but it is still important to consider that:

Playing lower block and deeper pressing invites more pressure which means withstanding long periods of pressure, which itself requires a certain degree of skill.
Playing deeper means attacking players have further to go to score and are more outnumbered, which again requires a degree of skill.

After my assessment of the initial squad I was not confident in having the desired skill set for either. Over a long season, I would have expected to slip up and concede goals, and also struggle to score.

Obviously, there's a certain time and place for defending deep. During the cup run we exclusively defended on our 18-yard box. But in the league, we were a bit more expansive.

Given the attribute level is so low, I was essentially thinking about how I would set up a side with minimal differentiation from their opposition.

Playing standard means that we're deep enough that there's not a huge amount of space in behind, but also that attackers don't have an impossible task to score. Add to that Structured shape and lots of Support duties, you've got a compact, well disciplined unit. Add to that a structure that frees the wingers and central midfielders to go forward and you've got a 'kinda' 2-3-5 attacking shape.

Season 1: (Achieved promotion from Vanarama National League North via Playoffs)

The big issue I had to work around was fullbacks not having the ability to provide attacking width, therefore my wingers had to. With wingers providing width my central midfielders had to support the attack centrally.

Season 2 (Won Vanarama National League)

Brought in Eyoma (a natural winger) and the development of Adu-Peprah meant we could play more expansive wingbacks. Also brought in O'Connor as a stronger focal point in attack then had Donohue, Logan and Edwards playing off him.

Season 3 (Won League Two)

Edwards reached the level he was capable of playing so we took advantage of being more attractive to loanees so brought in Diallo from Wolves and played the same system in a 4-3-3 rather than 4-2-3-1.

Start of Season 4 (Assault on League One)

Barkworth seems to have hit his level, so we have our first academy product Oduro taking a key role in midfield but otherwise the same.

Hopefully you'll notice how similar (and simple) the playing style has been all the way through.

I don't play a lot of lower league saves, but my biggest surprise so far is how little the ability level jumps between leagues. Pretty much the entire squad have gone from semi-professional to professional and won League Two and look pretty solid for League One. We face a lot of sides with better individuals but generally a disorganised, gaping hole somewhere, club in disarray and/or a new manager.

I'm not sure, but I think most of the current group are going to make it to Championship level. Perhaps Allinson and O'Connor will need an upgrade.

I'm actually going the opposite way (to playing low-block) and prioritising quick defenders and players with high work rate, team work and stamina in order to press more aggressively.

3 hours ago, Bigshow1 said:

Love reading your posts. Hopefully you take the plunge and play the new versions in the future. I’ve played since 1993 and the modern tactics creator has me pulling my hair out these days.

Thank you very much :applause: Yea, same. Old database is gradually killing my enthusiasm but the new tactics creator just doesn't have the depth to keep me interested unfortunately.

March 27, 2021

Second post updated with the outcome of the Bournemouth game and the climax of the cup run.

Enjoy! :thup:

March 24, 2021

On 25/01/2021 at 21:53, Impacto said:

Oh no, not you, I meant @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! needs a new name

:lol:

Ø-degaard to the Arsenal! doesn't have quite the same ring to it. Maybe Ö-zil to the Fenerbahçe!

Maybe I do need an update, but I'm not sure it's possible on these forums. An out-of-date username does seem quite appropriate for my updates on an out-of-date version of the game I suppose :kriss:

On 02/03/2021 at 20:17, FJW said:

You have a midfield set up of DLP(D), BBM(S) & MEZ(S)..

Would other midfield set ups work? For instance, if your DM was not a playmaker type, or if you didn’t have a CM suited to playing box to box?

Sorry for the delayed responses. I thought this thread had mostly gone the way of trying to adapt something for the more recent Tactics Creator and I couldn't contribute too much to that discussion.

Yes - the main point to get across is that a huge combination of roles can work.

There are a few things to consider beyond the role name itself.

Be sure to also consider the players at your disposal and how they fit into the rest of your team.

In this particular iteration of Benfica, we had a squad which suited a high pressing and possession based style, marauding wingbacks and wide attackers who play best coming inside.

In the simplest possible terms, a midfield should have someone to support the attack, someone to support the defence and someone to connect the two. I'll typically assign one playmaker within that and I want as many players ahead of the playmaker as possible. Sometimes the deepest midfielder will not be capable enough as playmaker so would try the next player further forward.

DM(D) - DLP(S) - MEZ(S) is perfectly doable. HB(D) - DLP(D) - MEZ(S) if you want a bit more control in buildup.

On 19/03/2021 at 12:48, FJW said:

Hey Ozil. I’m having great success with your total football 4-3-3 style of football on FM18. I have a classic no. 10 coming through that I can’t ignore. I’m thinking of retraining him out wide or as the false 9 to fit into the system.

However, I was wondering if it is possible to play this style of football in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-1-2 system? If so, how would you go about setting up such a system?

Check the Caixa Academy thread. Shortly after this season I also had an AM come through who was so good he forced a change of system.

Again, there are a lot of options.

In fact in that thread I used 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-1-2 (in earlier seasons) if you're looking for inspiration.

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Posts posted by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!