mp_87
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Posts posted by mp_87
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5 minutes ago, Jorge666 said:
because i've saved it on a separate file and keep re-simming the match on commentary only and analysing what happens via the result and stats , i wasnt doing terribly before i just wanted to try and maximise the performance of my wingers and attackers as they seem to quite often get low ratings and the games scrappy and not fluent which id expect to be better considering i have some fairly adept technical players, and i wanted to try and refine this without ruining my season try different approach game after game and getting hammered, obviously my tactical approach is dog sh*t and having half decent players alone has gotten me this far, but i want to try and make more use of the quality of players i have without ruining my season in doing so, youre right i could do a throw away save but then its different players etc and different opponents, i understand there isnt a "one fits all tactic to win every game" but when my best striker arezo a tried and tested good player is lucky to get 10 a season and my wingers are gettin sub 6.7 every game im obviously not making the most of what i have
But watching commentary only and looking at the stats is not going to be able to show you the how and why things got better, just the end result. And what works for one game might not work in others, you need to have some trends and build up some evidence.
Work the problem. Lets go back to the start... Ignore what the player ratings were. You say games were "scrappy and not fluent", this can happen with new players and a team that's hasn't gelled yet which is something to bare in mind if you've made a lot of transfers and tactical changes. What were you seeing that you'd like to have improved, and what style of play were you trying to develop in your initial tactic? (or was the first one that you posted what you have been using?).
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I don't know where to start....
The place to start from is not some funky shape.
You've got everyone lined up with a bias towards the right, and now focusing the play down the left....
Absolutely no need for two DLP. As for what the system rates them as, ignore it. You do not need perfect green circles.
I'm not familiar with some of these players, I've looked them up now... Are these really suited to counter attack football? I see a lot of technical players who will want to dominate the ball.
As I said, set up a throwaway save and experiment from there, not in the middle of one of your main saves. Chopping and changing and introducing tactics moments before kick off is likely not to go well.
And you must have just rushed through that match on minimal highlights. How can you learn by doing that or react to what is happening in game?
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4 minutes ago, Jorge666 said:
It's hard not to get hung up on player ratings when your wingers and strikers are getting 6.3-6.6 I'd like to harass the opposition and take the ball off them and quickly counter attack (using my raumdeuter when he's fit/available as the forefront of the approach) most times, I acknowledge and appreciate what's been said by all posters but a little advice on what might help would be more helpful than simply pointing out what isn't working, people have varying degrees of tactical understanding and simply telling someone that theirs is not good, start again, by the time I find something that works I'm relegated and have lost all my players
3 minutes ago, Jorge666 said:And I tried focusing the play down the right to draw the markers away from my raumdeuter and have my right flank cross the ball over that way, just experimentation
Firstly, some general points.
I can appreciate it is tough when you're first starting to try and make logical tactics and/or trying to implement a specific playing style. It is good that you are doing it, keep going it will get easier. But as has been said to you already, you have to slow down and put some work into the learning process. You learn by watching the matches and how things play out. I know it's a bit boring, it's not what people want to do in the time they devote to FM, but at this point don't set up a long term save. Just set up some throwaway saves to experiment with tactics to help learn what works, what doesn't, and what effect different instructions have. Watch matches in full.
On the ratings, I just wouldn't tear your hair out about it. Sometimes it indicates underperforming players, sometimes it is just quirks in the FM algorithm. Since I can remember it has never been perfect, some positions overrated, some underrated. For example, most of my tactics include a midfield pivot, designed to just recycle the ball and mop up/intercept when the opposition clear it away. This player for me invariably averages 100 passes a match just simply keeping things moving, circa 95% completion rate, and has endless interceptions. But he never scores, doesn't assist, and doesn't tackle much as he doesn't need to. In as many editions as FM as I can remember it's a miracle if he gets over 6.7 rating. The game thinks this player does nothing of note, so will never get accolades or awards in game, but really they are one of, if not the, most important cogs in my machine.
As for tactics, start with minimal instructions until you are sure of the effect they have and you are clear about that will help with your playing style.
In your tactic there, it is a mass of contradiction. A lot to go through so I'll just bullet point:
Two central midfield playmakers who will want the ball, a left flank set up to all converge, but the play instructed to go down the right. This is the first thing to address. I'd just get rid of the instruction.
If you want to press high and counter quickly, other instructions need to go: Work ball into box, why you want that? Low Crosses, for me that's not one that goes with quick counter attacks. Play for set pieces is also definitely not needed. I'd personally be wary of Higher Tempo also, until I knew I had the players to play at high pace, but not saying to definitely get rid of it. I'd experiment with and without it (normal).
Also, when it comes to pressing Raum and AP are hardcoded to not be the best at pressing. That's not to say they wont, but are weaker than other roles. In a 4-2-3-1 high press I usually don't put a playmaker in those four attacking roles. Some people would, to maximise pressing I wouldn't.
And if you want to counter quickly, do you need two midfield playmakers? There could be a tendency to look for these players rather than the forward pass, I would monitor that closely...
But to be the main man the Raumdeuter needs a path clearing for him. In your side if he goes forward to score goals the Attacking forward is in his way. If he comes inside to be a creator he's meeting the Mezzala and probably the Advanced Playmaker. Also that left flank is way too attacking for me. If the Wingback is bombing on then the central midfielder should be a more conservative role I'd say. Why does the Mez need to go into that space also? If you think he does, then rein in the fullback role. All in all there is a good chance he just gets crowded out.
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a) Stop getting hung up on the match ratings, is my advice.
b) What are you actually trying to achieve? As has been said, the roles and instructions are a bit of a mess.
You cant just look at those two positions in isolation when trying to build that combination. Other roles around them will need to complement them in order for them to shine and have a balanced team.
Also, if as it seems, you're trying to get a threatening left flank with the Raumdeuter heavily involved and wingback bombing on outside him, why is the play focused down the right flank? Amongst many other things I'd change, that is going to be one reason he/they are doing very little.
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34 minutes ago, fumaca09 said:
Thanks guys.
I just think there should be a way of developing a possession based tactic without having to employ Messi, Mbappe, KDB, etc
I know this type of football needs a more technical player but the current ME seems to only want to make it work if you have the world 11 at your club.
I am going to carry trying to see if there is a way
Of course it's possible, you can get lower league teams/players to play possession football if you so wish. It depends what you're aiming for, but you can even rack up 65% plus possession on average whilst still winning and creating plenty of chances in games.
It does require time, patience, and to be prepared to put the work in. Lets take the matchday first, if you want to (well, near as) always be in control and dominate and rack up the high %'s then you have to watch matches in full and micromanage. Your formation and/or roles will have to differ from game to game, to counter different threats, exploit weaknesses, maintain superiorities, etc. You will have to react within games if the opposition makes changes. Sometimes if your players just aren't performing on the day you have to change things up eg. tempo, risk settings. And, even though it's boring from a gameplay point of view, you have to kill chunks of the game, eg. ten mins before the break just go overkill on the settings for keep ball etc. or when you're 2-0 up in the second half.
I haven't even mentioned getting the tactics right in the first place, and this is an area where I'd differ from many who do these sorts of threads.....
It also requires time to build a squad. Possession football carried out very well will take seasons worth of work. To build a squad with the required technical and mental attributes, traits, and to have gelled into a unit, plus longer if you wish to focus on academy (the right coaches, players, etc.). @Crazy_Ivan is completely right in terms of the vision of what players you need and how to go about it such as retraining players. I see so many FM'ers trying to play possession football or showing off saves and going like "Defenders need Strength, Tackling, Jumping, Pace etc" and I think, why? You're aiming to have the vast majority of the ball with it on the ground, I want technical qualities more to be able to build up play. Sure you might be caught out sometimes if your defenders then aren't of the 'classic' mould, but if I'm doing things right and have the vast majority of the ball and attacking most of the time I can accept it.
You definitely don't need world beaters, a good coherent plan and putting in the effort will yield results.
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42 minutes ago, Orikoru said:
I can't really deal with these riddles, what specifically is wrong with the Spurs tactic? I can't work out why you think it's wrong just because you say it's wrong. And I don't know how any regular person off the street buying and playing this game would know that they "contradict" each other either, because they don't seem to, to read them.
What he means is that you've selected extremely aggressive OOP instructions, aiming to win the ball back high up the pitch and condense space.
Yet with the ball you have instructions to pass into space (where is this space going to be, if you're successful and do win it back quickly and/or have the opposition penned in?). High/extremely high tempo is also unnecessary and will just be rushing the ball forward into space that isn't there and misplacing passes, especially with the selected Mentality. And as I said on a post yesterday, people try and use high tempo settings too early in their tactics, for my liking anyway, it needs the appropriate players and good tactical familiarity and team gel to carry out.
Then there are the roles chosen. You're funnelling everything towards the centre of the pitch, with inverted wingers and playmakers, which would suggest playing more intricate football and playing through teams. Not looking to get in behind teams at every opportunity. And in the pressing phase, Playmakers are one of the weaker roles in terms of hard-coding/instructions for this task, I'm not saying you cant press successfully using them but if I was trying to play Gegenpressing type football I wouldn't personally use a playmaker role in those front four positions of the 4-2-3-1.
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As the others have said, the team is conflicted.
Dual playmakers in midfield suggests you want the play to go through them, yet every instruction suggests otherwise and wastes the two players.
I'd also wonder who is going to be in the box getting on the end of things, I think the striker is isolated personally and particularly with those instructions (particularly direct passing, early crossing, higher tempo), as you will just be hitting the ball forward early.
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You cant just judge everything in one match, like you are doing. Yes you can somewhat identify trends and patterns of play and if the tactic seems solid, but it takes time for your team to become familiar and gel to a tactic, especially when you're lurching from one playing style to another. You cant just select a new random bunch of instructions prior to kick off and send them out there and expect things to look brilliant. There are also other factors that effect whether you win/the tactic works, as an example look at the amount of complacent players you have with bad body language, that will have an impact on what happens.
As for your latest tactic, others might argue differently but I have always been very cautious in using the Higher Tempo instruction. Maybe I'm just thinking in terms of realism, but for me you cant run before you walk. When trying to bed in a tactic I'll keep it at a normal (and sometimes with lesser players, maybe even slower) tempo. When the team is familiar and gelling well, and if I deem the players good enough and/or I have improved the level of the squad, I might then consider upping the tempo and playing at a faster pace. Your 4-4-2 with wingers/wingbacks is going to be pretty direct in any case, so arguably doesn't even need additional instructions to up the tempo.
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What are 'serious struggles'? What issues are you finding?
Also, if something was working why did you change it?
As for that tactic, I feel it might be a bit toothless and your attacking players isolated. Who will be getting into the area and hopefully scoring goals apart from the striker?
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6 minutes ago, flauta kicma said:
Both of you are right but still I dont know why I cant beat likes of Cagliari or Spal at home while having this tactic
Well again, it's a bit of mess. What made you choose these roles and these instructions? Or is this more of trying to go through every possible combination until you hit the magic formula?
You're trying to play slow, patient football yet have chosen attacking mentality, which will be telling your players to increase risk and force play at basically every opportunity.
You also want to progress up the pitch patiently, but have a keeper on attack and a BPD, both of which on that mentality will again be trying hit defence splitting passes early on.
Even if Attacking mentality doesn't kill the gameplan, you have overkill by instruction again, trying to force everything slow and very narrow into the same area of the pitch. The IF (s), AM (s), and BBM (s) I'd be fairly confident just stand on each others toes. Going on the instructions and depending on traits etc. and what they do I can see the DLF and other IF ending up in that area of the pitch too. Easy for oppositions to defend when you can throw a blanket over half your team.
I can only say once again, slow down!
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You're not experimenting though, that's subtle tweaks to an existing platform and/or with a proper plan in mind.
What you're doing is just clicking any old formation/role/instruction in rapid fashion. To reach what, I'm not sure, as you don't seem to know. Are you trying to stumble on a magic formula to win matches, or achieve a particular playing style?
Slowwwwwww down. In fact I'd suggest just shutting down FM for the moment, doing a bit of reading of various guides to get some idea and knowledge, and getting a pen and piece of paper and jotting down ONE idea about what you want to do (your 4-4-2 ideal?) and what roles/instructions can achieve that.
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Well your roles and instructions are just all over the place. As a side point what was the reasoning between changing from the first to second tactic?
Anyway, some of that just straight up conflicts. You're setting up to attack from wide, with Wingers and Wingbacks (who will stand on each others toes in any case) and want your players to run at the opposition, with direct passing/pass into space.... Yet on the other hand you want to work the ball into the box and focus play through the middle with everything going through dual playmakers? It's a mash of styles.
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For me it is about manipulating the defensive line, having variety, and having players work in tandem. For me usually I find a support striker attacking as a focal point, dropping off the front line and drawing away defenders whilst you have a couple of runners going past him the other way usually works against packed defences. I have no problem creating chances or opening up a gap finding a runner.
In your tactics there I just don't see enough people getting in to areas where they can score goals, Wingers are going to be crossing to one, maybe two players against a packed defence who will be the overwhelming favourite to clear the ball. Even roles like Inverted Winger play far too much in front of the opposition and aren't a huge goal threat, for my liking and taste anyway.
Usually if I'm playing possession style/dominating the ball, or games are panning out that way due to what the opposition are doing, I take inspiration from the main man on the subject - Mr Guardiola. Emulate what he does in trying to get players in the halfspace, creating overloads etc, maintaining width and applying rules like '5 attack, 5 defend' in order to guard against counter attacks.
As an example, a tactic/shape that has worked me for on a few saves, across different versions of FM, is:
Spoiler(Lopsided 4-3-3 shape)
SWK (usually D)
RB - Fullback (s) - Just backs up the flank and protects against counters. Hold position optional, I usually use it.
CB
CB
LB - Fullback or Wingback (a) - Bombs forward up the flank providing the width on that side. Stay wider used.
RM - Wide Midfielder (a) - With stay wider. Provides the width on that flank, and the CM inside him on attack forces him wider. Will also get into the penalty area at times as a runner.
RCM - Central Midfielder (a) - Gets beyond the centre forward. Sometimes with Move Into Channels to get him into the half space when on the ball.
CM - Central Midfielder (d) - The holding player, recycles the ball. Put in the cm strata, forces other CM's wider (needed, especially on left side) and condenses the space between the lines with no DM effect.
LCM - Central Midfielder (s) - With holds position. Helps recycle ball and will drift out to link play and will support, but defensive minded given what is happening on the left flank.
AML - Raumdeuter (a) - Starts wide, will link with the left back bombing on outside him, but also be a runner beyond the striker (from the opposite side that the CM(a) is coming from.
CF - Deep-lying Forward (s) - Will link play, draw away defenders and create space. Never found goal scoring a problem either from this role, so will notch a healthy amount of both goals and assists.
Cautious or balanced mentality for me, as it sets the directive to be patient and recycle the ball. Those with attacking mentality in the final third are then given the license to up the urgency and risk. The shape becomes the Guardiola 2-3-5/3-2-5 in attack with lots of bodies in and around the area across the width of the pitch.
Well, it's what I do anyway...….
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Yeah I do think the timing is off on that one and that's unlucky. In real life I'd imagine what would be the most likely course of events is that the incumbent manager plays out the 10 games and then gets sacked in the summer - even if they've won the league, and there would be uproar about it (and if this was the course of action on FM, of course!) - when the new owners choose their own man who they think can take the club on to bigger and better things. They would minimise disruption and distraction for those last few games and wait to make a change.
Difficult to factor in such nuance in the FM world and code calculations though...
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5 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:
Few mentions of wide midfielders as well. How much does this impact upon their position in possession? I'd like them to remain quite high and mainly be involved in the final third. Would changing them to wide midfielders mean they'd spend more time in the middle third, along with the CMs?
Thanks everyone for the replies!
Really multifunctional role, you can do pretty much anything with it.
A WM with support duty will tend not to get in the penalty area and prioritise holding the width, attack duty will look to get into the box and be a proper threat in front of goal. I find PPM's of an individual player also gives additional flavour in what is more of a default, blank canvas role - Runs down right/left, Hugs Line, Cuts Inside, Likes to beat offside trap, Gets into area, etc - so can be used in so many ways depending on your tactics and the player(s) you have at your disposal.
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There is a problem with build up and how the game presents patterns of play (well, to my tastes at least, but also to many others also, as has been discussed ad infinitum) so it wont completely eliminate the problems, but I'd suggest changing the Wingers into Wide Midfielders. Much more versatile and less one dimensional.
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I presume you're still at Villa Park? I'd imagine there is no scope to increase season tickets any further, not all the stadium capacity can go to season ticket holders (away fans, corporate, GA, etc).
Have never really got so far into saves where new stadiums happen, in my limited experience if you're an established club it takes a fair number of years of sustained success and reputation building of both the club/you the manager. Finances have to be in a very good state, and it will also depend on the type of chairman you have and their characteristics. Some stuff around it is also hard coded and not really known to the user, iirc.
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As I said on a post the other day expressing similar sentiments, simply do not listen to AI staff. You as manager should always know best, how your team sets up, what attributes are needed (both core and for certain positions/roles in your team), etc. And these players can always be retrained into new, more suitable positions - Winger who is lacking in technical ability, could he switch to fullback? Fullbacks who lack pace/athleticism, how about becoming a centre back or holding midfielder? And personally, playing high possession football a lot of the time, most of my centre backs have been converted from other positions to have the necessary technical abilities I deem relevant.
Loads of newgens that the system rates as rubbish can be moulded into serviceable players who at the very least can be sold and bring in some funds. But so many FM'ers don't get past that news item in their inbox or the star rating system.
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1. Stop using the star ratings as a guide.
2. Stop taking the advice of AI staff.
People should look at the abilities/attributes of each player, and think about how these might fit into the tactics they play. Personally I have always found, on every edition of FM, that in the vast majority of youth intakes I'll always have two/three regens come through that can be developed to a point where they can do the 'hot prospect' role for cup matches etc. or become a backup player in the squad, they wont be star players and eventually get sold when the next batch of newgens come up the conveyor belt behind them or you buy better players but they do a job for a bit. And these are players that can be rated at two, and sometimes even one and a half, stars by the AI. I'm in no doubt that most FM'ers would be like "**** that, I haven't got the time to be wasting it developing average players", but that is surely the reality of youth development, especially at the better teams - many get a taste of first team football, never quite good enough, and eventually find their level further down the food chain. Why should it be any different on FM?
And then there is also the possibility that, sometimes, one of these players surpasses all expectations. Three or four FM's ago now I had a Right Back that I turned into a Defensive Midfielder, that the system rated as terrible. He had little strength, absolutely awful pace, couldn't head a ball, couldn't really tackle, no vision, crossing and shooting was below average also. Most of those below 10, some way below, in either position you'd think he had no hope…….. But what he did have was decent enough first touch and passing, and his mental attributes (anticipation, concentration, positioning, teamwork etc.) were his strongest stats, but still by no means absolutely spectacular. I taught him short passes and stay back PPM's, and my experiment went better than I ever thought possible as he just fitted my possession-focused team perfectly. He'd just endlessly give and recycle the ball to better players and when the opposition tried to clear it he was in the right place to pick it up more often than not, just providing the platform in the holding role for the team to dominate. The guy was racking up quite crazy stats, one year in the league he had like a 98% passing accuracy with over 100 passes a game on average. It took over 5 years, and trying and jettisoning players much better on paper, until I found someone able to match/surpass him in doing this selfless job for the team. Forget winning trophies and unbeaten seasons etc, the development of that player is right up there in picking my most fun had playing FM.
Not saying it's always the case that you can make chicken salad out of chicken ****, but you'd be surprised what you can do with a lot of newgens. Especially if you have an idea of how you're playing and what attributes and traits you're looking for/are useful to your team. And as with most things in FM, I'd urge people to slow down, stop rushing through, engage their brain and think/use their imagination a bit and work to a plan. Leads to better decisions and often in my experience more interesting and enjoyable saves.
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Yeah, as others have already said this is a) the reality of how things work in football and b) has always been in the game. Now they highlight it more as part of the revamped youth development aspect, but there have always been academy regens coming through your system that have been either taken from affiliated clubs or outright poached from smaller teams.
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Am I the only one who reads Neil's post and have visions of him sat there typing with a gun forced against his temple.....
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Yeah, cannot comprehend how some of those instructions have been put together as a package, I don't want to be unkind but surely a millisecond of thought and analysis and this would be realised. Just removing most of them would be a good starting point.
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16 hours ago, WilltheWolf92 said:
FM15 is my favourite FM engine
Funny that as I've given up on FM20 for the time being and gone back to one of my most enjoyable long term saves on 15. If you accept it's a more limited game all round and there are some foibles in terms of the ME then I've found that version is a much more pleasant experience than the current edition(s). As I say it might be on a more basic level, but at least the game feels sympathetic to what you want to do and you can play different styles of football. Actual possession football and patient recycling of the ball is also far far superior.
It's just nice not seeing the ball constantly switched to the flank because your central midfield player sees your wide man in 7 millimetres of space, and for said wide man to then just run and smash it or even worse pick out some random backwards diagonal to the opposite fullback, or just generally every other pass being an attempted killer ball, as you get on 20.
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- Popular Post
We should all appreciate the work SI do, and don't doubt that individuals (that includes SI staff, and mods/staff on the forum too) have a real passion for the game and are putting many many hours into it to try and make it better each year and remedy any problems. And we should never lose sight that the game is quite unique, being built up over the years and so far ahead of any competition because of the sheer scale of making a realistic football management sim.
And I'd say despite the complaints, most FM'ers on the forums are supportive and tolerant. They do understand that it's a work in progress and put up with the sort of foibles and gremlins we, lets be honest, quite often see each year and might not be tolerated by the fanbases of other Games. A half-baked concept being introduced, or it taking till the final patch for a ME that is satisfactory to most, etc. People overlook this, because on the whole the (track record of the) direction of the game is positive and is constantly going in the right direction to introduce more and more, expand and push what is possible.
It's almost certainly also true to say that the vast majority, the casual FM'er and those who just enjoy doing transfers to build a super team and then skimming through matches on minimal highlights, are absolutely satisfied with the game and see no issues. From a business perspective it does make sense for SI to take that and see the positives, the bottom line is what it's all about after all.
But there is a large number of us, maybe overall in a small minority but a big presence especially on the forums (and I'd argue are probably the most passionate and most loyal customers to the game who have helped drive the growth and legend of CM/FM), who forensically examine the game tactically and deep dive and aren't happy with what we're seeing. Primarily with the Match Engine, which should be the meat and drink of the game. As I said, I fully understand the business perspective and that you'll want to highlight and pump out the good PR like sales figures, but I think that sometimes the impression is given within the communication from SI, and particularly Miles, that the numbers/millions of sales is held up as there isn't really anything wrong. There is also maybe an impression I get that, whilst I know it is the hardest part of the game to build and get right, the strive for realism doesn't quite apply to the ME often, it often goes off on gimmick stuff like "hey! this year in FMxx we've improved stuff like overhead kicks and scissor volleys" instead of boring stuff like tactical aspects and how they're represented and play out.
On this aspect, and whilst I know everyone wants something different and will pinpoint different things as wrong, I think many just feel things are going in the wrong direction. Not just for one year, but quite a few now. I know most don't care, wont notice, never see it. Some of us do though and it breaks the game for us. My personal label would be it is getting arcadey, too direct and too one dimensional with an emphasis on forced "killer balls" and definitely far too much (direct) wide play. What were concepts/changes with the ME that were supposed to enhance and expand possibilities has actually in some ways narrowed and reduced them. I for one plead for a long hard look and big rethink with how the football represented plays out.
To finish I'll just say that sometimes as a minority you have to shout loudly to get attention. That shouldn't mean abuse or some of the silly stuff we are seeing directed at staff or that the game is fixed, but in the nicest possible way sometimes you have to spell out that you think they, SI in this case, have effed it up pretty majorly - at least with the ME (all the other stuff the direction of travel is great). Otherwise with such a casual loyal majority in a fanbase they wont hear and things wont change.
13
Lack of Gk yel/red cards and in match inj
in Football Manager General Discussion
Posted
Definitely facets that are under-represented in the game, and have been since basically forever.
I'm another who cant recall seeing a GK ever get a card, concede a penalty, etc.
As for injuries, training ones definitely occur on a regular basis. In game injuries are rare - very occasionally have seen a keeper pull up with a minor knock when kicking a ball (I cant say for definite, but iirc mostly this happens in pre-season games in my experience). Collision injuries I don't think I have ever seen.