Ultimate settings for a TM style striker?

[lyw_85]

I'm afraid that the advanced position of my MCa might clash with the deep position of my FCd.

Think I will make their positions staggered.

[crouchaldinho]

I'm really not sure about this. Best way to find out is to watch a match and see!

Let me know how it goes.

[crouchaldinho]

Right, I have spent ages revising my tactics and, as I promised, here is a friendly game PPM for you to look at: St. Albans City 7 - 1 Stalybridge Celtic PKM

This is actually a very good example of the forwards runs business because in the first-half I play 4-4-1-1 and Shaun Johnson is on forward runs rarely. In the second-half, I changed to a 4-4-2, and he is on mixed runs. You can see the difference in his play in the first 45 and then the second-half.

Some other information for you - they are of the same quality as my side and I am playing an attacking system against them.

This is my biggest win on FM09 so far. It is also the best average rating I have ever managed to get for my strikers! Particularly delighted with some of the play as well.

It is only a friendly though so not the most impressive ever. However, I am still quite proud of this performance and result.

Let me know what you think of the forward play etc. and if you have any questions, then ask.

[lyw_85]

Right, I have spent ages revising my tactics and, as I promised, here is a friendly game PPM for you to look at: St. Albans City 7 - 1 Stalybridge Celtic PKM

This is actually a very good example of the forwards runs business because in the first-half I play 4-4-1-1 and Shaun Johnson is on forward runs rarely. In the second-half, I changed to a 4-4-2, and he is on mixed runs. You can see the difference in his play in the first 45 and then the second-half.

Some other information for you - they are of the same quality as my side and I am playing an attacking system against them.

This is my biggest win on FM09 so far. It is also the best average rating I have ever managed to get for my strikers! Particularly delighted with some of the play as well.

It is only a friendly though so not the most impressive ever. However, I am still quite proud of this performance and result.

Let me know what you think of the forward play etc. and if you have any questions, then ask.

From the ME, I can tell you got one MC on FWR Often and the other on FWR rare. This creates a hole in the middle whenever you attack.

Good job on the striker. With FWRs rare, you will see the striker back facing towards goal.

However, it was only in the 2nd half, with 2 strikers, then your side started banging in the goals.

Hall's long range shot was a nice one to watch

[crouchaldinho]

From the ME, I can tell you got one MC on FWR Often and the other on FWR rare. This creates a hole in the middle whenever you attack.

I just watched it again and focused on the movement of my MCa for the whole game.

I don't see this as a problem for the following reasons:

1) Every time I attack, they leave two men forward and I have three men back (my MCd and the two DCs).

2) My MCas movement is excellent and he regularly tracks back. In fact, he wins the ball in defensive positions a number of times during the game.

3) When my MCd has the ball, I saw the MCa offer himself as a passing option several times.

4) I have my MCd on slightly longer passing, taking into account the theory about the mentality and forward runs of the players around him having an effect on his passing options.

I didn't see anything wrong with this and I was quite happy with the defensive stability against a team that are actually in the division above my team (albeit newly promoted).

Good job on the striker. With FWRs rare, you will see the striker back facing towards goal.

However, it was only in the 2nd half, with 2 strikers, then your side started banging in the goals.

Well, I scored 3 goals in the first-half with 4-4-1-1 and 4 goals in the second-half with 4-4-2. Not that much difference in shots on goal either, which were about 9 in each half.

I would agree that we seemed a bit more clinical in the second-half but I believe this is because of the substitution I made in the forward position.

The lone striker in the first-half is actually far from the best in the team and more one for the future. His mental stats leave something to be desired, to say the least. In the second-half, I brought on my best striker to support him, so I think this might have made it look a bit better.

[lyw_85]

Haha, I think you uploaded the wrong match, as the one that was uploaded had a score of 6-0

[crouchaldinho]

After your comments about the MCa, I'm going to spend a bit of time working on how best to configure him in relation to the strikers.

My gut feeling is still that having the MCa in a 4-4-2 on mixed runs means he doesn't get forward enough and therefore is a waste unless you are playing defensively. Perhaps I will be proved entirely wrong. I have, however, had an excellent defensive record in my current main save game and I have played with the MCa on forward runs always even in a standard 4-4-2.

This is from Wikipedia:

4-4-2 Formation

This adaptable formation is the most common in football today, so well known that it has even inspired a magazine title, FourFourTwo. The midfielders are required to work hard to support both the defence and the attack: typically one of the central midfielders is expected to go upfield as often as possible to support the forward pair, while the other will play a "holding role", shielding the defence; the two wide midfield players must move up the flanks to the goal line in attacks and yet also protect the fullback wide defenders.

I'm trying to work this definition logically into three 4-4-2 systems, i.e. defensive, balanced and attacking.

I'm going to abandon the concept of support players and just talk about defensive or attacking ones. I'm defining both strikers as attacking players regardless of their forward runs. However, the definition of players who have mixed runs is a little more difficult. When a player has mixed runs, I am going to think about his position on the pitch in literal terms, in terms of mentality and in terms of the defensive line.

Let's start with the balanced 4-4-2 and my feeling is that there should be a 5-5 split in order for it to be balanced. As I said before, take the two forward players as given regardless of how their forward runs are set. Then you have two wingers, always on forward runs. Then I would suggest one of the midfielders getting forward at every opportunity too. That's 5 attacking players when you are on the attack (MR, ML, MCa, ST, ST).

Defensively, you've got the centre-backs and the holding midfielder who stay back at all times. You've also got the fullbacks who are on mixed forward runs, which means that they will sometimes hold their run but sometimes get forward. Most full backs in a real life balanced 4-4-2 are expected to provide some kind of attacking dimension by getting upfield along the wings and providing crosses should the opportunity arise. Rather than talking about support players though, I'm going to stick to my defensive/attacking categories and define them as defensive. That's their position on the pitch, I'm only asking them to get forward when the circumstances permit. In this system, they have a cautious (less than normal) mentality and the defensive line is normal. To conclude, that means that you have, for the most part, 5 defensive players when defending (DC, DC, MCd, DR, DL). It's a 5/5 split; a balanced 4-4-2.

So then, work this logically into an attacking 4-4-2. The main difference is that the opposition are now offering little threat going forwards. Fullbacks are now expected to offer an attacking threat and to get forward at every opportunity. The defensive line is high so the fullbacks, when making forward runs, are not covering as much ground. Their literal position on the pitch is influenced by their now attacking mentality, the high d-line and their often forward runs meaning that they are now a genuine part of the attack. It's now a 3/7 split. An unbalanced 4-4-2 concentrating on attack.

In a defensive 4-4-2, I now want more defensive players than attacking ones but not so much that it has an effect on my ability to break. I want my fullbacks to stay back at all times and man mark. Their positions on the pitch are now defensive in every way, e.g. in terms of their position, mentality, defensive line and forward runs. So I've got the usual 5 at the back but now I also want some extra cover in midfield. The defensive line is deep and so I want to ask my normally attacking midfielder to hold his runs. Because his natural position on the pitch is now deeper, due to a more cautious mentality, a deeper defensive line and lower forward runs, I will put him in the defensive category. The wingers and the attackers are now my main attacking outlet. Occasionally, the more attack-minded midfielder might join them, but for my purposes of definition, this is now a 6/4 split. An unbalanced 4-4-2 with the focus on defend.

I'd like to know what you think of this theoretical perspective lyw_85 and also what your opinion is about the MCa forward runs.

C.

P.S. I feel a bit guilty that you and I have completely taken over Sussex_Hammer's thread. Apologies to him but I hope he might have found the discussion of some use. Also, I was wondering if this thread title might be better if it was changed to 'forward runs on attacking players' or something like this, as the discussion has moved somewhat beyond TM settings.

[crouchaldinho]

Haha, I think you uploaded the wrong match, as the one that was uploaded had a score of 6-0

Are you sure about this lyw_85? I have just downloaded it from the link above and it is the right match when I load it into FM.

Totally confused. I don't have any other matches saved just this 7-1 game. :confused:

You can tell if it is the right one because my striker skies one in the second minute and then Stalybridge score after 4 minutes by knocking it through my goalkeeper's legs!

Let me know if there is a problem with it and I will upload the file again. I still don't get it though. :confused:

[Sussex Hammer]

This is a fascinating discussion fellas. What a can of worms I opened!!!!!!

Interestingly enough last night away at Chelsea I put Ashton on a free role and reduced his forward runs whilst also lowering his CF. With Bojan I upped his CF to max and operated him on mixed everything.

I found Ashton dropped deep and found a lot of space between Chelsea's midfield and defence and he released my wide men a lot. Pity Petrov can't shoot or he would have a hatful.

I changed Bojan in the second half to Often FR because Ashton was flicking them on but Bojan wasn't reacting well enough for a flick on.

Neither striker scored but I drew 2-2 after being 2-0 down and absolutely battered them. 21 shots on goal with 9 on target with a high possession rate and all this playing an attacking 4-4-2 with a high line.

My only real problem seems to be getting Ashton into the box with rare forward runs. If you put them on mixed he doesn't drop deep. Rock and a hard place comes to mind!!!

Maybe it's because I play global rather than individual mentalities. I can never get on with individual mentalities.

One tip I do use though which gives my wide men continuous high ratings is have them on a free role with normal CF. This way they cut in a lot as well and both have their fair share of shots on goal.

[benchambers]

My only real problem seems to be getting Ashton into the box with rare forward runs.

I have the same problem. Wenever my winger's cross the ball there is only my other striker in the box. He is ok in the air but against two centre backs he has hardly any chance.

[crouchaldinho]

My only real problem seems to be getting Ashton into the box with rare forward runs. If you put them on mixed he doesn't drop deep. Rock and a hard place comes to mind!!!

It depends what you want Ashton to do. If he has forward runs rarely, he should still get into the box for crosses from wide positions and he will still get in front of his man sometimes when the circumstances permit. It does mean that he will hold his runs and spend most of his time in front of his marker but in an attacking situation that's probably the way you want him to operate. His job is slightly different in that he needs to pull opposition defenders out and contribute to the build up more. He will be more of a creative striker than a goal scorer, but he should still score you goals. By the way, I would give the player who you are setting to rare forward runs the CF as he will be in a position to use it. You want your other striker on mixed forward runs and solely focusing on putting the ball in the net.

When you were playing against Chelsea, what kind of system were you playing, e.g. attacking, defensive, balanced?

Maybe it's because I play global rather than individual mentalities. I can never get on with individual mentalities.

What I would suggest, Sussex Hammer, is keeping most of your team on global but then adjusting your two strikers' individual mentalities a couple of notches either side, depending upon the sort of role you want them to play. If or when you feel confident with it, you can make other minor changes to. That's pretty much how I started out on FM07, with mostly global and my defence grouped together on similar individual setting. Then eventually, I started playing with the strikers and now my whole team are set up with individual mentalities, grouped together in some places.

A good way to adjust mentalities, without it getting too complicated, is to go view the mentalities of the team as a whole. Then you can easily and quickly make changes and look at the relationship between different players.

One tip I do use though which gives my wide men continuous high ratings is have them on a free role with normal CF. This way they cut in a lot as well and both have their fair share of shots on goal.

Good tip.

[crouchaldinho]

I have the same problem. Wenever my winger's cross the ball there is only my other striker in the box. He is ok in the air but against two centre backs he has hardly any chance.

Where are the wingers crossing from? Where is your striker when they cross?

Also, what kind of system are you playing, e.g. attacking, balanced, defensive?

I haven't seen this happen at all. I saw my FCd getting into the box when the wingers were crossing from the by-line (with his forward runs set to rarely).

[benchambers]

Where are the wingers crossing from? Where is your striker when they cross?

They cross from the byline so he has plenty of time to get in the box. I think the problem is he is 36 now and his stamina is really low so he must be getting tired really quickly. I may try getting in a loan or take a look if there are any good TM out of contract.

[Sussex Hammer]

When you were playing against Chelsea, what kind of system were you playing, e.g. attacking, defensive, balanced?

What I would suggest, Sussex Hammer, is keeping most of your team on global but then adjusting your two strikers' individual mentalities a couple of notches either side, depending upon the sort of role you want them to play. If or when you feel confident with it, you can make other minor changes to. That's pretty much how I started out on FM07, with mostly global and my defence grouped together on similar individual setting. Then eventually, I started playing with the strikers and now my whole team are set up with individual mentalities, grouped together in some places.

A good way to adjust mentalities, without it getting too complicated, is to go view the mentalities of the team as a whole. Then you can easily and quickly make changes and look at the relationship between different players.

I did actually try the different mentalities on the strikers but I was getting feedback saying the attackers were to far from the defence etc? I may try it again though but ony trying a couple of notches.

What are your thoughts on Closing Down/Mentality??

I play an attacking format with the Hammers but only one notch up from normal.

[crouchaldinho]

I did actually try the different mentalities on the strikers but I was getting feedback saying the attackers were to far from the defence etc? I may try it again though but ony trying a couple of notches.

I think this tends to happen if you go beyond three notches between each layer of the players, e.g. between midfield and attack.

What are your thoughts on Closing Down/Mentality??

I have lots of thoughts about them - too much to detail here. But for closing down, generally, I increase as you go up the pitch, i.e. defensive players low, attacking players higher. This is adjusted depending upon mentality, e.g. attacking = more closing down, defending = less closing down. Best way to think about it is that players will leave their positions with high closing down. With defensive players, this could be disastrous. If you are unsure, I would look at the default closing down settings for 4-4-2 standard, attack, defensive - they are a good starting point.

I play an attacking format with the Hammers but only one notch up from normal.

You might be having some problems here unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying. A normal mentality isn't an attacking format, if you catch my drift, even if it is a notch up from normal. It's still normal, just with a slightly greater emphasis on attack. If you want to be attacking, then you need to set the slider to where it says 'attack'.

What is your passing style? If you are playing quite direct with a normal mentality, then that might be the problem with Ashton not getting into the box enough when on rare runs.

[lyw_85]

Back from school!

Before we begin, let me explain why I prefer my MCa to be on FWR mixed.

The fullbacks are attacking fullbacks pushing up and joining the attack.

There will be 1 MCd to shield and clean up. He will also be the one spraying the pass around. His role will be that of a Deep-Lying playmaker.

Partnering him in midfield will be a box to box midfield. As the full backs and wingers are pushing up, there is no one except the FCa who is on mixed forward runs.

There is someone linking from defence to midfield(the MCd)

There is someone linking from midfield to attack(the FCd)

But there is no one linking from defence to attack and so, I preferred my MCa to be on FWR Mixed.

As for closing down, I have always read that to leave your creative players on lesser closing down so they will be in space when your team win the ball back.

So my team closing down is on 14, my DCs are on 8 and my MCa and FCd is on 10. My MCd is on 16 though.

[benchambers]

So even if i dont tick the TM button he will still be used if i ask the Winger's to cross to him?

[crouchaldinho]

Back from school!

Your profile says you're 23? :confused:

Before we begin...

Can you tell me more about this mystery PKM because I'm still confused about that!

let me explain why I prefer my MCa to be on FWR mixed.

The fullbacks are attacking fullbacks pushing up and joining the attack.

There will be 1 MCd to shield and clean up. He will also be the one spraying the pass around. His role will be that of a Deep-Lying playmaker.

Partnering him in midfield will be a box to box midfield. As the full backs and wingers are pushing up, there is no one except the FCa who is on mixed forward runs.

There is someone linking from defence to midfield(the MCd)

There is someone linking from midfield to attack(the FCd)

But there is no one linking from defence to attack and so, I preferred my MCa to be on FWR Mixed.

See, I'm not sure I totally agree with the TT&F definition of box-to-box midfielder.

Steven Gerrard is often talked about as a box-to-box player but I don't see him making mixed forward runs for Liverpool. He is forward at every opportunity. He also has the attributes to get back and defend though, such as Positioning, Stamina, Decisions, Teamwork, Work Rate. Surely that is the point of a box-to-box player, that he has the attributes to get up and down the pitch and contribute at both ends. In my very humble opinion, mixed forward runs means that the midfielder doesn't get forward enough.

By my definition of the 4-4-2 above, that means you've a 6/4 when playing balanced, which I would think results in overcautious play. I would think that your MCa doesn't score many goals unless they are long shots though?

I suppose in attacking setup, which it appears yours is, it probably doesn't actually make much difference as his position on the pitch etc. will still make him very attacking. You will still be unbalanced and focusing on attack with a 3/7 split according to my definitions above.

The question is, how to set the box-to-box midfielder? Maybe with a slightly lower mentality than you might expect so his natural position is deeper. High closing down so he tracks back and chases. Forward runs often. Creative freedom so he can abandon instructions if needed. Maybe a free role? I'm really not sure.

The one thing I can sort of agree with in TT&F on box-to-box midfielders is this line: 'it is best to allow the Box‐to‐Box Midfielder highish mentality and creative freedom alongside a free role to get him forward'. Especially the bit about the free role. But then, if you want him to get forward, why not give him forward runs often?

I must just say quickly that I am enjoying these discussions with you Lyw_85. You have opinions that are often slightly different to mine, which is challenging me to look at my own opinions and evaluate them anew. It is also refreshing to talk to someone who wants to actually look at how tactics work in real life and apply them to FM.

As for closing down, I have always read that to leave your creative players on lesser closing down so they will be in space when your team win the ball back.

I'm not sure about this. If they are on zonal/loose marking then they will be in space. I think closing down has more to do with the fact that they will will leave their position more often though and, if you win the ball back, may not be in the position you want them to be if you catch my drift.

So my team closing down is on 14, my DCs are on 8 and my MCa and FCd is on 10. My MCd is on 16 though.

I can agree with most of this but I don't ask my MCd to close down so much, especially in my defensive and balanced systems. The reason for this is that I want the MCd to hold his defensive position rather than chasing the ball and ending up caught out of position. He is set slightly lower so that he won't give the opposition time and space close to my box but he will hold his position and, hopefully, my defensive structure won't lose shape.

Do you find that having him on such high closing down sees him chasing the ball quite far up the pitch and leaving a gap in midfield?

Personally, I think that the TT&F definition of closing down and marking is spot on.

Finally, what did you make of my reasoning for forward runs often on my MCa, i.e. my 4-4-2 definition?

C.

[lyw_85]

Yeah, I'm in my final year of studies in university.

I'm not sure about that PKM. I've deleted it so I can't get it back. It was from the download link you provided. I will re-download it again to have another look

I think my ideas are different from TT&F, because I have been implementing my own ideas since CM2, and have only really read TT&F seriously this year.

I am beginning to see what you mean about the Box to Box midfielder. I think my settings have instead made him into a Deep-Lying Playmaker with Mixed FWRs.

Right now this is my current tactic.

As you can see 5 of them are on FWR Often, 4 on FWRs Rare and 1 on FWRs Mixed.

I'm have been playing mixed passing(8) but have found that it is not suitable for my Derby team. It might be because of the more aggressive runs and mentality of my players + the inability to do decent passes that is causing it to be not suitable.

Have been thinking of a passing of 14 instead.

What kind of passing system would you recommend? Of course I would prefer to have possession football with quick passing on the ground.

Actually I have been tinkering with Closing Down.

The reason being is I find the match assistant advising that DCs prefer to close down more often and Wingers/AM is not used to closing down so often.

I know that we shouldn't be listening too closely to the assistant but surely SI implemented it for a reason! The same goes to the gap between defence and midfield etc. If we should listen to the advise regarding the gap, why shouldn't we be listening to the advise based on closing down?

[benchambers]

Crouchaldinho and Lyw you two are pretty amazing. Today, after reading through this topic i have played about 10 friendly matches with a few different teams and in each match my TM has scored or assisted at least one goal. Thanks guys.

[lyw_85]

Crouchaldinho and Lyw you two are pretty amazing. Today, after reading through this topic i have played about 10 friendly matches with a few different teams and in each match my TM has scored or assisted at least one goal. Thanks guys.

I'm actually quite amazed on how a small discussion could evolve into such a big and detailed one.

The credit mainly goes to Crouchaldinho and his details. I'm just the one who disagrees and gives him reason to question and come up with ideas.

[crouchaldinho]

Yeah, I'm in my final year of studies in university.

Postgrad MA student here supposed to be working on his final research dissertation but thinking about/playing too much FM instead!

I'm not sure about that PKM. I've deleted it so I can't get it back. It was from the download link you provided. I will re-download it again to have another look

Yes, see if you can, because I don't understand what's going on with that. :confused:

I think my ideas are different from TT&F, because I have been implementing my own ideas since CM2, and have only really read TT&F seriously this year.

I tend to read TT&F and agree with loads of it but there are always small things that don't fit in with my personal opinion about how things work. It's a great guide to the game though and I have immense respect for it.

To be honest, I have been implementing my own ideas with mixed success over the whole series.

From FM07 onwards I really started to experiment and I feel like I've been learning new things with each series.

My tactics on FM07 were all about simplicity and I wasn't absolutely brilliant but I did fairly well.

On FM08, I was experimenting loads and I had quite a lot of success but still think that I missed minor things.

Now, I feel like I am beginning to understand things better, most importantly how to apply what I want in real life terms, in FM terms, if you see what I mean.

Right now this is my current tactic.

As you can see 5 of them are on FWR Often, 4 on FWRs Rare and 1 on FWRs Mixed.

I'm have been playing mixed passing(8) but have found that it is not suitable for my Derby team. It might be because of the more aggressive runs and mentality of my players + the inability to do decent passes that is causing it to be not suitable.

Have been thinking of a passing of 14 instead.

What kind of passing system would you recommend? Of course I would prefer to have possession football with quick passing on the ground.

It very much depends upon your status, how teams are playing against you, the quality of your players, what kinds of forwards you have.

Very broadly speaking, my current setup is like this (but I am playing in BSS):

Defensive/counter-attacking -

Passing is global direct (five clicks in from right), DCs on long, MCa & STs normal.

Forward runs set accordingly - MCa mixed, FCd mixed, FCa often.

Balanced -

I've not got a technically great team so I'm going for a 'counter-attacking' rather than 'shorter/attractive' 4-4-2:

Passing is global mixed, DCs direct, fullbacks and wingers direct (just above normal).

Forward runs set accordingly - MCa often, FCd mixed, FCa often.

Counter-attack ticked.

Attack -

Passing is global short, DCs direct just above normal, fullbacks & wingers & MCd mixed.

Forward runs set accordingly - MCa often, FCd rare, FCa mixed.

So you see, I alter the passing style depending upon my approach. I shorten or lengthen the passing by a few notches either way depending upon the technical abilities of my team.

Actually I have been tinkering with Closing Down.

The reason being is I find the match assistant advising that DCs prefer to close down more often and Wingers/AM is not used to closing down so often.

I know that we shouldn't be listening too closely to the assistant but surely SI implemented it for a reason! The same goes to the gap between defence and midfield etc. If we should listen to the advise regarding the gap, why shouldn't we be listening to the advise based on closing down?

To be honest, I don't listen to the assistant regarding closing down.

The difference between his advice about mentality and closing down is that, on the one hand a gap in mentality is something fundamentally wrong with your tactic. On the other, if a player doesn't like closing down so much then he can wind his neck in, stop moaning and get on with it. I'm the boss and I'm the one telling him how to play. I'm pretty sure that as my team has gelled these messages about a player not being used to closing down tends to go away.

It may be that you can get more out of the player though by adjusting your closing down according to what your assistant says. I may be missing out on something there. I seem to remember reading Cleon saying something about tweaking closing down in his excellent Sheffield United project thread.

[crouchaldinho]

Crouchaldinho and Lyw you two are pretty amazing. Today, after reading through this topic i have played about 10 friendly matches with a few different teams and in each match my TM has scored or assisted at least one goal. Thanks guys.

I'm really delighted that you've got your team playing well and your TM doing the business.

I'm certainly not amazing though. :o

The ideas on this thread owe a whole bunch of debt to people on this forum who contribute their ideas, especially someone like WWFan or Cleon. Both of those guys have made me want to question how things work and not just blindly accept that they do.

Plus, Lyw_85 is harshly underestimating his contribution to this discussion.

I'm just a bit of a nerd who wants to understand why my strikers aren't scoring loads and loads of goals.

[benchambers]

I have seen a few of Cleon's threads on other forum's, if it is the same Cleon.

[Zebedee77]

I've had a lot of success with playing the target man as the more forward of the strike partnership and on rarely run forward when playing defensively. He seems much more effective at breaking the offside trap (obviously this is a nippy target man ) - providing the opposition is playing a high defensive line and pushing up. Andy Bishop at Bury (League 2) is playing below his 'level' in 9.02 but he is absolutely deadly with the 4-4-2 set up correctly and him as target man.

re. 4-4-2 balance - the Benitez style 5x5 mentality covers the 'standard' split brilliantly and is fairly robust. However, as Crouchaldinho points out, this leaves you a little short in attack - the mca really does not contribute enough goals. I posted my variants over at Fmbase, they're very heavily based on TT&F, are designed for a Blue Square South team but have been robust enough to see good use in League 2 without overmuch changing. http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/downloads.php?do=file&id=344

re. Gerrard - he's not played as a box-to-box midfielder at Liverpool for a very, very long time. Partly because Benitez feels it's inefficient for him to be using up so much energy running like a headless chicken up and down the pitch, and partly because Liverpool just don't play that kind of formation.

Personally, I think the 'pure' 4-4-2, even with a defensively minded midfielder is increasingly obsolete and this will filter down to the lower levels too. It's stable and durable and is easy to play. But it's also inefficient and places too much of a demand on the central midfield pairing.

Just some thoughts. Thanks for provoking some intriguing ideas guys

[Sussex Hammer]

Crouchaldinho,,, This is my tactic (HAMMERS 09 4-4-2) and I'm having a certain degree of success with it. It's as good as I have got with the striker pairing. If you get some time I would appreciate you taking a look and maybe giving me your thoughts? Thanks.

http://files.filefront.com/HAMMERS+09+4+4+2+West+Ham1tac/;13207807;/fileinfo.html

[crouchaldinho]

Crouchaldinho,,, This is my tactic (HAMMERS 09 4-4-2) and I'm having a certain degree of success with it. It's as good as I have got with the striker pairing. If you get some time I would appreciate you taking a look and maybe giving me your thoughts? Thanks.

http://files.filefront.com/HAMMERS+09+4+4+2+West+Ham1tac/;13207807;/fileinfo.html

Hey Sussex Hammer - glad you are having some success.

I have had a look at the tactic and the basics are looking good.

I would make the following suggestions though:

1) You've got your MCd on a very low mentality compared to the overall team. I would be tempted to up it so it is only a few notches deeper than the global (and the other midfielder). I'd also be tempted to put the DCs down a few notches as well so that you have all the defensive players on slightly lower mentality than the rest of the team.

2) Creative freedom would be more useful for your FCd, i.e. the player you have set with lower mentality and rare forward runs, rather than your FCa. He is in a position to be very creative in his deep position. The FCa is going to be more of a quick striker or a poacher/goalscorer, so you probably want to give him normal creative freedom.

3) Passing style - I would up the centre-backs to the same as your MCd.

4) Forward runs - I would be tempted to give your MCa forward runs often as you are playing attacking.

5) Run with the ball - You have a lot of players running with the ball, including your centre-backs. I would just concentrate on giving attacking players that instruction.

6) Through balls - same as above. I would concentrate on the midfield and attackers and give them 'often'. Maybe your fullbacks 'mixed' if they are good passers of the ball.

7) Cross from - get your fullbacks crossing from 'mixed' or even 'byline' as you are attacking.

8) As you are playing attacking, I would set the width to 'wide' as you will open up more space for passing through the middle and you'll be better able to utilise the flanks.

Otherwise looking good and the way your forwards are setup particularly looks great to me in terms of mentality and forward runs. How are they getting on?

P.S. I hope that my list doesn't come across the wrong way. I'm just trying to be thorough and some of the things I have listed are personal preferences. If you are having success then don't change too much just because Crouchaldinho said you should! You may end up regretting it!

[Sussex Hammer]

Hey Sussex Hammer - glad you are having some success.

I have had a look at the tactic and the basics are looking good.

I would make the following suggestions though:

1) You've got your MCd on a very low mentality compared to the overall team. I would be tempted to up it so it is only a few notches deeper than the global (and the other midfielder). I'd also be tempted to put the DCs down a few notches as well so that you have all the defensive players on slightly lower mentality than the rest of the team.

2) Creative freedom would be more useful for your FCd, i.e. the player you have set with lower mentality and rare forward runs, rather than your FCa. He is in a position to be very creative in his deep position. The FCa is going to be more of a quick striker or a poacher/goalscorer, so you probably want to give him normal creative freedom.

3) Passing style - I would up the centre-backs to the same as your MCd.

4) Forward runs - I would be tempted to give your MCa forward runs often as you are playing attacking.

5) Run with the ball - You have a lot of players running with the ball, including your centre-backs. I would just concentrate on giving attacking players that instruction.

6) Through balls - same as above. I would concentrate on the midfield and attackers and give them 'often'. Maybe your fullbacks 'mixed' if they are good passers of the ball.

7) Cross from - get your fullbacks crossing from 'mixed' or even 'byline' as you are attacking.

8) As you are playing attacking, I would set the width to 'wide' as you will open up more space for passing through the middle and you'll be better able to utilise the flanks.

Otherwise looking good and the way your forwards are setup particularly looks great to me in terms of mentality and forward runs. How are they getting on?

P.S. I hope that my list doesn't come across the wrong way. I'm just trying to be thorough and some of the things I have listed are personal preferences. If you are having success then don't change too much just because Crouchaldinho said you should! You may end up regretting it!

That was quick!!!! Not at all your list is fantastic. Many thanks for such an in depth reply.

Certainly some interesting ideas there. It's a great opportunity to try and improve the tactic.

1. Yes I see that. I actually always had my CB's on their own defensive mentality but I found that they tended to play the opposition onside, howevber I will try your suggestion.

2. I put it this way round because Ashton was not high in decisions and CF but Bojan was. But I see your pint. A top of pitch striker should be your point for finishing the moves off rather than drifting.

4. I've actually been trying that in the second half of games and Behrami ran onto a ball on edge of area and blasted it home.

5. Fair point. I had them on mixed in an effort to get them to bring the ball out like a Rio Ferdinand.

6. Would putting "often" TB on wide players stop them either dribbling or crossing? And I assume TB shouldn't be given to the higher up forward?

8. An interesting point. I never liked playing wide but you make a valid point that it could open up more through the middle.

Great stuff I will try and utilise all of this and name the thing the "CrouchaldinoHammers Tactic" if you don't mind your name being used?!

[crouchaldinho]

That was quick!!!! Not at all your list is fantastic. Many thanks for such an in depth reply.

That's the beauty of being a postgraduate student who is supposed to be working on their dissertation proposal. There is always time for a distraction.

Would putting "often" TB on wide players stop them either dribbling or crossing? And I assume TB shouldn't be given to the higher up forward?

I work with a general rule now that when I have a player with poor mental stats, especially decisions, I don't ask him to do too much. For some of my younger players, this seems to have raised their game hugely. However, for older players will great decisions, I am happier to give more instructions to.

I have two wingers with good decisions and I tend to get them playing through balls, crossing and running with the ball (to different levels depending upon the kind of tactic, i.e. defending, balanced, attacking). It doesn't stop them from crossing the ball but it does mean that they will sometimes come inside and play a through-ball instead.

As for through balls on the advanced ST, I normally put them to 'mixed' if he has the ability. Remember, your striker is on mixed forward runs, so he might end up in a position to play someone else in.

In general, your looking for more through-balls from outfield players for attacking tactics and less for balanced, which sounds maybe a bit obvious. My fullbacks are awful passes of the ball so I tend to just get them to focus on crossing.

I normally set up with the following (bear in mind my side is low quality non-League):

ATTACKING:

Through-balls often (four players) - MCa, MR/L, FCd.

Through-balls mixed (two players) - MCd, FCa.

Crossing often: DR/L, MR/L.

Crossing mixed: MCa.

Cross from: DR/L mixed, MR/L byline.

BALANCED/DEFENDING:

Through-balls often (two players) - MCa, FCd.

Through-balls mixed (four players) - MCd, MR/L, FCa.

Crossing often: MR/L.

Crossing mixed (or rare for defending): DR/L, MCa.

Cross from: DR/L deep, MR/L mixed.

Great stuff I will try and utilise all of this and name the thing the "CrouchaldinoHammers Tactic" if you don't mind your name being used?!

I don't mind if you want to. However, I think you should call it 'SussexHammers Tactic', after all, you're the one who is making it.

C.

[lyw_85]

A bit of info on through balls, I find it very useless to give it to defenders.

A through ball is a pass that release an attacker, either down the wings or in the middle. So by giving the defenders through ball, you are encouraging them to make a long pass, which might be contradictory if you are playing a possession football style.

Also on wingers, I feel in the modern game, the fullbacks bomb forward providing crosses, while the wingers will take abit more central position. So giving them throughballs is a good idea.

If you notice the wingers nowadays, their crossing is not as high as the conventional one.

[Sussex Hammer]

C....

Tried a few ideas in a test game but lost to Reading 3-1.

Just a few points I noticed were that my DM, AM and Wingers especially had bad ratings. I also conceded 2 goals from over the top which I think was because my CB's were deeper hence playing the attackers onside.

I think for me Through Balls Often on too many players meant a loss of possession to much although my deeper striker had far better ratings so the extra CF may have helped.

I'll keep working on it, there are several good ideas there it's just a case of getting a good balance I think.

[crouchaldinho]

C....

Tried a few ideas in a test game but lost to Reading 3-1.

How were Reading setting up against you? What did the scout report say?

Just a few points I noticed were that my DM, AM and Wingers especially had bad ratings. I also conceded 2 goals from over the top which I think was because my CB's were deeper hence playing the attackers onside.

Central midfielders do tend to get lower ratings on this patch. I believe it is a known 'bug'.

Wingers may be getting bad ratings due to their 'free role' if they don't have good mental stats, especially decisions. Or it could be that they weren't seeing enough of the ball due to the passing being too short. Check their passing stats and see how involved they were in the game.

I think for me Through Balls Often on too many players meant a loss of possession to much although my deeper striker had far better ratings so the extra CF may have helped.

Low possession may also be down to your passing being too short. Were you giving the ball away too much? Do you players have the passing ability to play short? Maybe knock the passing up a few notches globally if most of your team don't excel at passing.

I'll keep working on it, there are several good ideas there it's just a case of getting a good balance I think.

I think you are on the verge of getting there. It's a case of trying a few things out here and there until you get the right balance.

Keep trying things and watching how they work. My idea is to always have a theory about why you lost a game or didn't play well. It might not always be a tactical theory, of course, because sometimes you give the wrong team talk, fail to motivate the players, someone is unfit, you're playing a weakened side, you're on a bad run of form etc. etc. etc., BUT if you are consistently losing games, especially ones you should win, then there is a tactical problem. Always try and have a theory about what it is by looking for clues, e.g. assistant comments, match stats and the 2D/3D representation etc.

I always have an FM test game away from my save where I try new ideas out that I want to implement in my real save. It's the best way to learn about the tactical options. One of the things I would really like to see in FM is the ability to test tactics on the training pitch with your first team and reserves.

C.

[crouchaldinho]

I thought I would let you guys know that my 4-4-1-1 formation is now doing the trick.

My instinct about the AMC and FC mentalities was slightly out and the TT&F advice about them taking on FCa and FCd characteristics held true.

The striker was too far ahead of the AMC when playing with a higher mentality and the AMC was misplacing loads of passes attempting to play him in. Once I dropped the FC's mentality and upped the AMC's mentality, they found each other pretty often and formed an excellent partnership. I had to lower the AMC's mentality a few notches from the usual FCa kind of mentality in order to get him to sit deeper.

I have the AMC on mixed runs and the FC on mixed runs. With the FC on rare runs, he wasn't getting a lot of goals and so I changed to mixed and he gets forward occasionally now and has scored a few more.

I see the AMC sitting between the midfield and the attack and dictating play. He plays lots of key passes. Mixed runs means he gets into the box pretty often as well.

The striker is combining and feeding off of him nicely and I think I have it working well now.

[Cityull]

I never understood why anyone would give RwB rarely to a striker,but anyway,here's my advice:

Ashton:normal mentallity,Normal C-Freedom,mixed passing,TTB mixed or often,HUB on,Cross from Deep,mixed RwB,mixed or rarely FwR.No Free Role

Bojan:,Attacking mentality FwR,RwB often,normal to high CF,LS rarely,Cross,TTB mixed.Cross from byline

As for Cross aim I should try this setup(Ashton on the left ST position;Bojan on the right)

DL,ML:mixed

DR,MR:Far post

I would also have Ashton as a target man(or semi-target man) supplied 'To Feet'

contradicting yourself

[crouchaldinho]

contradicting yourself

Read it again!

[lyw_85]

contradicting yourself

Its rare FWRs, not RWB.

I agreed with Crouchaldinho's idea that if you want your strikers to HUB, don't give them RWB. I have definitely seen a marked improvement in my TM style's of play.

Anyway, I pulled this thread up again because I have trouble setting up my creative striker.

Right now in my Derby save, I have Daniel Sturridge(Pacy poacher) and Mauro Zarate(My creative striker).

Sturridge is doing fine, scoring 21 goals in 30 games.

Zarate on the other hand has scored 12 goals in 30 games and made 4 assists.

Basically, he isn't doing what I hoped I had instructed him to do.

I want him to get the ball in the hole, play Sturridge in, work the channels, help out the MCa in building attacks.

This are my instructions for him.

Mentality: 12 (FCa is on 15)

CF: 15

FWR: Rare

RWB: Mixed

Long Shots: Mixed

TTB: Often

Cross Ball: Mixed

Free Role: Ticked

Am I playing him correctly?

[crouchaldinho]

Hey lwy_85 - seems like Zarate is scoring plenty but not setting them up.

Sounds like you mainly want him working in the hole and getting out wide occasionally too.

Forward runs rarely and the mentality is good, which means he will hold his runs and be available in his deep position behind Sturridge.

Creative freedom and free role means he will wander a lot. This should involve him getting into the channels and moving around plenty.

I'd suggest perhaps you are giving him too many instructions. Maybe try getting rid of long shots as you want him to concentrate on being creative rather than taking pot shots at goal. Why don't you remove run with ball and get him to hold it up too? That would be the best setting, I would have thought. With forward runs rarely and run with the ball on mixed, he might be picking up the ball in a poor position and then attempting to run with it but just dribbling straight into trouble. Without run with the ball, he'll be sitting in the hole, moving about a lot and when he receives the ball he will hold it and release it to a runner.

I'd actually suggest that you don't need too many instructions when you've got high CF. If the opportunity arises, he will still run with the ball or take long shots or whatever, despite your instructions being rarely.

[lyw_85]

I'd suggest perhaps you are giving him too many instructions. Maybe try getting rid of long shots as you want him to concentrate on being creative rather than taking pot shots at goal. Why don't you remove run with ball and get him to hold it up too? That would be the best setting, I would have thought. With forward runs rarely and run with the ball on mixed, he might be picking up the ball in a poor position and then attempting to run with it but just dribbling straight into trouble. Without run with the ball, he'll be sitting in the hole, moving about a lot and when he receives the ball he will hold it and release it to a runner.

I'd actually suggest that you don't need too many instructions when you've got high CF. If the opportunity arises, he will still run with the ball or take long shots or whatever, despite your instructions being rarely.

His strength is 10, will he be able to hold it up successfully?

When i look at the match stats, he has lesser passes made compared to Sturridge which is ??.

I'm afraid that he doesn't see much of the ball as he is on the right side of attack and my MCa is on the left side.

[lyw_85]

Argh!!!

Last match of the season and another 6.0 rating.

He hasn't scored or assist or do anything useful in the last 10 matches!

[crouchaldinho]

I just had a quick look at Zarate on my game (so the stats might be different) and it seems to me that he is absolutely all about pace and finishing ability. After this brief glance, I must say that I'd probably prefer him in a less creative role. His team work is pretty low as well so I wonder if he is the best type of player to link up with the midfield. With pace like that, I'd be getting him to make some forward runs.

Zarate and Sturridge look like similar types of players to me. I'd be tempted to get in a stronger forward to support one of them, with decent creativity and passing if possible. Either that, or I would give them both some forward runs and set them up similarly to be honest.

[lyw_85]

Hmmm, now that you have mentioned it.. they do look similar.

Besides creativity, what kind of stats should I look for in a second striker?

[crouchaldinho]

Lyw_85 - This is my personal opinion of the stats I want for a second striker (preferably an FC type player who can also have a free role in attacking systems although doesn't have to be): Creativity, flair, finishing, off the ball, passing, technique, strength, Teamwork, balance, long shots, anticipation, jumping, first touch.

I've underlined the ones that I feel are pretty essential for the sort of second striker I like to employ.

Then for the advanced striker (preferably an ST who I keep it pretty simple for): finishing, off the ball, Pace, acceleration, jumping, heading, anticipation, technique.

Again, I've underlined the ones that I really want for my 'number 9' who is leading the line to have.

I tend to look for creativity alongside pace in my forward line. Even better if I can get physical strength (in the air & on the floor) alongside devastating pace and finishing ability too.

I tend to immediately put strikers into one or the other category. First thing I'm looking for is, is he all about pace and finishing or is he creative and strong? Obviously, there are also some players that are hard to categorise or some players who fit into both descriptions.

[lyw_85]

Hi C., I think I accidentally found the right settings for my 2 strikers.

I looked for strikers that suit the criteria, but couldn't find any, except the well known big players. I decreased the settings in the filter for certain stats, and finally settled for 1 player - Guilherme.

I bought him in FM08 to partner Sobis and both of them were devastating. I paid 15million pounds for him this time, and it took out the entire of my transfer budget. I'm Derby

Initially I played a few friendlies and let him play in Zarate role. He couldn't perform at all. Frustrated, I decided to make him the advanced striker and gave him FWRs often and TTB Mixed instead. He scored 1 and assist 1 in just 20 mins

Only when I checked back at the tactics, did I discovered that I had left his mentality at 12!

So despite his mentality being the deeper striker, his FWRs was on Often, while Sturridge's FWRs was on Mixed.

I played another friendly with the same settings and he had 30+ passes compared to Sturridge's 15.

Funny how things work!

I'm going to test it a few games but the EPL season is beginning soon and I really do hope that it works this time.

Btw, do you think you could look at my passing/tempo settings. All season I had problems retaining ball possession. It might be linked to why my strikers underperform.

[crouchaldinho]

Only when I checked back at the tactics, did I discovered that I had left his mentality at 12!

So despite his mentality being the deeper striker, his FWRs was on Often, while Sturridge's FWRs was on Mixed.

Interesting. I suppose this translates as him making lots of runs from deep, perhaps meaning that if he receives the ball in the hole, he can either play the advanced forward in or play a one-two and get past his marker with his pace.

Maybe try watching a full match on fairly quick speed and watch his movement to see why he is so much more effective?

I think it is probably because he draws his marker out with him and then can beat him for pace when he makes forward runs. Therefore, you might have hit upon a particularly good setting for playing against deep defensive lines.

Btw, do you think you could look at my passing/tempo settings. All season I had problems retaining ball possession. It might be linked to why my strikers underperform.

Yes no probs.

To be honest, I mainly link passing and tempo. As my team aren't technically brilliant and aren't great passers of the ball, I keep things mixed and normal (as per my 4-4-2 thread).

I tell you what can also make a big difference to possession in my experience - closing down. Too low a setting and you give the opposition too much time on the ball.

C.

[lyw_85]

Interesting. I suppose this translates as him making lots of runs from deep, perhaps meaning that if he receives the ball in the hole, he can either play the advanced forward in or play a one-two and get past his marker with his pace.

Maybe try watching a full match on fairly quick speed and watch his movement to see why he is so much more effective?

I think it is probably because he draws his marker out with him and then can beat him for pace when he makes forward runs. Therefore, you might have hit upon a particularly good setting for playing against deep defensive lines.

Yes no probs.

To be honest, I mainly link passing and tempo. As my team aren't technically brilliant and aren't great passers of the ball, I keep things mixed and normal (as per my 4-4-2 thread).

I tell you what can also make a big difference to possession in my experience - closing down. Too low a setting and you give the opposition too much time on the ball.

C.

Here it is..

http://www.zshare.net/download/553958279a7c1f19/

thanks.

Edit: Forgot to mention my team.

GK: Ben Foster

DR: Francois Clerc

DL: Joe Mattock

DC: Zat Knight and Mark Beevers

MR: Mauro Zarate

ML: Szabolcs Huszti

MC: Morgan Schneiderlin and Fabian Delp

FC: Daniel Sturridge and Guilherme

[crouchaldinho]

Had a quick look at your tactic. In terms of keeping possession, my thoughts are as follows:

1) As this is quite an attacking tactic, you could up the defensive line (and mentality) slightly. Upping the d-line would reduce space for the opposition to play possession football and waste time on the ball. Maybe play on the first notch of 'push up'.

2) Closing down looks really high in the middle of the park. I'd be tempted to reduce it slightly, especially for the defensive-minded one, so that they keep to positions a little more. At the moment, your midfielders may be closing down too much, committing themselves too early and leaving gaps in midfield.

3) Passing and tempo look fine. You might want to play longer in defence though if you haven't got good passers of the ball there. I was mucking about with global passing in the past and I found that my defenders were giving the ball away in silly positions when I played shorter global passing. Suggest you look into that.

Just a few thoughts for you.

C.

[lyw_85]

Had a quick look at your tactic. In terms of keeping possession, my thoughts are as follows:

1) As this is quite an attacking tactic, you could up the defensive line (and mentality) slightly. Upping the d-line would reduce space for the opposition to play possession football and waste time on the ball. Maybe play on the first notch of 'push up'.

2) Closing down looks really high in the middle of the park. I'd be tempted to reduce it slightly, especially for the defensive-minded one, so that they keep to positions a little more. At the moment, your midfielders may be closing down too much, committing themselves too early and leaving gaps in midfield.

3) Passing and tempo look fine. You might want to play longer in defence though if you haven't got good passers of the ball there. I was mucking about with global passing in the past and I found that my defenders were giving the ball away in silly positions when I played shorter global passing. Suggest you look into that.

Just a few thoughts for you.

C.

Hi C, I took onboard what you said and implemented the changes.

I found myself losing idea of how my tactic was supposed to be played on the pitch, so I restarted the entire tactic, start from scratch and implemented the ideas.

The result? My fingers are just trembling with excitement at just typing this post.

http://www.zshare.net/download/55451985b9147f05/

Here is the PKM of a match which gave me the most satisfaction. A 4-1 away win over Ajax.

Take a look at the fourth goal. Start at the 84:30 min mark.

The passing and movement was so good that the commentator praised it!

I'm not going to mention what he said as it would take the fun away.

Please watch and enjoy it. FM at its best.

[crouchaldinho]

I like it - takes your breath away!

Football looks different at that level. Remember I'm in non-League!

So I take it that this is your split mentalities but mixed forward runs the unorthodox way for the two forwards? Very interesting. Neither of them won a header all afternoon but they both saw an equal amount of the ball.

I assumed Sturridge was your deeper striker and Guilherme the more advanced one. Their runs from different positions seemed to work well.

What was your half-time talk by the way? Must have been good!

[Norte del Valle Cartel]

Quite interested in this thread however I have become somewhat lost amongst the post to properly follow how you have both set your strikers. Please could you post your striker settings so I can take a look and perhaps see if I can add something to it.

[crouchaldinho]

Norte del Valle Cartel - it all gets going at about post 32 (which details my usual setup).

Lyw_85 will have to tell you about his but he was working on a deeper mentality player making forward runs often & the other striker holding his runs but playing higher up last time he mentioned it.