One for the oldies. Is it possible to create this kind of tactic?

[Sussex Hammer]

I have been desperately trying to develop a tactic for my West Ham side so that they can play the way the Boys of 86 IE McAvennie, Cottee, Devonshire, Martin and Gale played however it seems that the lack of "game logical options" make it impossible, by that I mean the following.

1. The advice given that "passing and tempo" are linked. If that is the case the quick, short one/two touch football I want to play is impossible in the game is it not because advice suggests that it's tough to play short passing with a quick tempo.

2. I read recently that Martin and Gale the Centre Half's liked to play deep due to their lack of extreme pace, yet this West Ham side was an attacking side. So a deep defensive line but an attacking team mentality? Is this once again impossible to achieve with the sliders? and also without your Assistant constantly telling you about the gap between defence and midfield?

3. Staying with the Centre Backs. They liked to either bring in the midfielders with short balls but also once in a while knock balls over the top for McAvennie and Cottee to run onto. Does this mean I should have Centre Backs on Mixed Passing, and Through Balls on Mixed to achieve this goal?

4. The wide men Devonshire and Ward like to cut in and shoot or dribble as well as hit the byline and cross. How can I achieve this with this years lack of arrows? I managed this sort of effect last year with a curved arrow the the AM position but how do you do this now? Maybe a cross from mixed rather than byline? RWB and FR on often or mixed? Long shots on Mixed? Any thoughts?

5. The two Centre men were Orr and Dickens. Orr sat back as a defensive midfielder and gave the ball to the players who could play. A classic quote from his then manager was something along the lines of "You are not Pele so don't try and play like him!" Dickens was the floater who moved into space and kind of dictated play with short quick passing.

Can you really achieve a defensive/holding midfielder in a flat 4 in midfield? And how do you play your attacking midfielder still to have defensive duties?

6. The strikers Cottee and McAvennie. Cottee was a poacher but you can't give him a goalhang option in the game. McAvennie charged around everywhere closing down defenders and also brought others into play without holding the ball too long, yet was on the button when a ball was played over the top. So again will the game let a striker drop deep but still be able to push on when a ball is played over the top? Can you link play without holding up the ball?

7. In FM09 I have found that most AI Teams seem to play deep, so how do you play that ball "over the top" without using a counter attacking setting?

8. In a short passing team with a player on Through Balls Often should that player not be on Mixed Passing?

9. Creative Freedom? Who uses it? Should it be held back for a quality player with high creative and decision stats or can it be used as a tool for players to just find another option if they so wish?

I would be interested on anyones thoughts of the above.

Thanks.

[Super Striker]

Hah I bought my old man a book on tactics for Christmas, one included showed an England vs Scotland match, Scotland had 6 upfront and England had 5.

Anyway, back on topic, I think for wingers, if you have them to cross from byline they'll very rarely cut inside, although I've noticied even with forward runs pointing forwards they'll ocassionally drift inside. On throw-ins, I'd suggest to have 'Come Short' when the throw is on their side, and 'Lurk Outside the Area' when the balls over the other side. Perhaps maybe even Free Role could be useful. PPM's could probably help enforce the way you want to play, like 'Makes Lates Runs Into the Box' etc.

[Sussex Hammer]

Noone else?¬

[knap]

Sussex

My 442 and 4222 probably cover most of the above, probably only needing a tweak. Cannot help with AI and I do not use creative freedom as "creative freedom". I will have a closer look later.

[Murchadh]

First of all, let me say that when I started FM09 I was (like most everyone else) trying to go with a fairly standard 442 but I decided before long to adopt a historical tactic and play that one tactic home or away, against good or bad (with only minor variations). I settled on a variation of the old 'Ajax/Holland system' advocating total football. I have tried this before in previous FM/CMs without much success (to perfect it you need wibble/wobble) but this time around it seems to be working a treat. A lot of people harp on about the ME being so bad, but from my point of view the ME is capable of quite a bit more than in the past...or maybe I can just read what is happening better due to 3d.

Anyway...

1) That advice is pure rubbish. I play a short passing, fast tempo game, i.e. one-touch football. The simple truth is that in order to do so you need the right players for the job, again countering an often held belief that in this ME there is more of a reliance on tactics than players. I'd say that you need technically proficient players, with good passing skills all over the pitch.

2) Mentality in this ME is MOSTLY a tool of positioning on the pitch and FAR LESS about whether players have a propensity to attack or not. From my experience the thing that defines an 'attacking mentality' is Forward Runs. Thus you could setup a deeper defensive line and a lower mentality all round (defining positioning) and use forward runs and (less so) run with ball to define how your team attacks.

3) I would say that the keys to this kind of behaviour would be through balls and creative freedom. I might be wrong but this is what I have observed: DCs on short passing will play short balls to the midfield UNLESS (1) under pressure (in which case they will play route one long balls spray and pray style) or (2) they spot a player far up the field in space in which case they will attempt a direct ball to that player IF they have through balls on (I'd say mixed) AND they have a highish creative freedom. I take it this is more or less what you are after.

4) Firstly I'd say that this is dependent on players first and foremost. A player with a PPM defining "runs down the right" is less prone to cut in than a player with PPM "cuts inside". However, intelligent players, i.e. high decisions seem to adjust to situations, thus: the ME allows players (from what I have seen) to make up their own minds as to what to do. I have RWB on often, Cross on often, and cross from on mixed. I get a mix of players hugging the line and crossing from the byline, running towards the byline and then cutting in (running astride the line towards to goal) and crossing from 'deep'. Crossing from deep in this instance happens mostly when a wide player receives a failed attacking ball, i.e. the player is positioned near the sideline along the line of the area or just behind, either recrosses into the box from that position or attempts a short pass to an overlapping player and then cuts inside to receive the return ball (various options open up from there).

5) No problem with that. Easily implemented. To play a holding player as MC (basically) you need "FWR on rarely" and a mentality equal to or just higher than that of your DCs (coupled with lowish creative freedom and a CD setting to fit the player in question). To have an attacking player to retain defensive duties you need to think "out the box" as to what defensive duties mean. For a central midfielder I interpret this as being a player that tries to (1) tackle opposing players ad nauseum or (2) constantly closes down opponents without tackling them (shadowing), thus making it difficult for them to pass into forward spaces, i.e. forcing them either back or laterally.

6) Yes you can link play without holding up the ball. This is achieved via one player running with the ball whilst all the other attacking players make forward runs. IMO this is WAY WAY better than having a player hold up the ball while your other players are running forward because the holding player takes himself out as an attacking options when you are looking to creative a chance near the box in space. Also, if you have good runners they are prone to either outstrip the opposing offside line or failing that keep very close to it (this is mostly a wide player option) which has they effect of making the other attacking players run forward unchecked. With holding up the ball, you have to make a fairly straight line pass (easily intercepted) and your advanced forward runners have to keep pace with their offside line...not vey ideal if they have slow defenders and you have fast attackers. Again, Forward Runs seem to be the key to this whole way of playing because regardless of your deep strikers mentality (positioning) and defensive setup he will tend to bomb forward if an attacking ball runs past him IF you set his FWR on often. In a two man attack this is IMO the most difficult thing to get right (the deep dropper) but I believe it is possible. I do not play a two-man strike force so I cannot say for sure.

7) Some more "out the box" thinking is required. TEMPO is the key setting along with through balls and CF. You don't need the counter attack option in the slightest. In practice you need to allow the defending side to push forward towards your goal, thereby creating space behind their offside line. You do this in one of two ways, (1) by sitting back and not closing down DEEP or (2) by creating perceived weaknesses in your shape for the opposition to move into. For a 442 system I think (1) is the easiest option since (2) is difficult to implement in 442. In a nutshell it means that you have to allow the opposition to close in on your goal, relying on your defenders to foil such attempts in order to create CLEAR chances (which is a wholly different thing than the 'clear cut chance' thing ingame) for your attackers. Pace is of PRIME importance in order to employ such a strategy.

It does not matter how deep they want to play, when they attack, they push up as a team. If they are stupid enough not to push up their DC line with the rest of the team (I have not seen this happening at all with the AI) you create space between their attacking line and the DC line. What you need is one of two things, a very fast striker shadowing their offside line, or a lay-off targetman shadowing their offside line...if possible a complete striker.

What I never seem to get (I don't know if it is possible or not) is true direct balls played over the top into no-mans land. What I do get however are these: Ball is defended away from my goal, someone latches onto it and plays it (1) to the advanced striker who lays it off to a runner who only has to beat ONE man to get into clear space behind the DC line or (2) through the DC line for the advanced striker to run onto (which is why pace is of prime importance).

8) Not necessarily. The way I see it, the type of passing you set a player/team is what you would like them to do MOSTLY. Creative Freedom defines whether they are free to make up their own minds whether to stick to the type of passing set or whether to get 'creative' and search out opportunities regardless of the type of passing.

9) This is a contentious issue for me. I use it as a tool to enable players to find options. I do however only rarely use it for defenders as this seems to be linked to movement away from my own defensive area. I do not want a defender latching onto a ball within my defensive area to try to play in advanced players up the field. I want him to play a short pass to a player just ahead of him (a midfielder) since it has a very high chance of succeeding, the latter who in turn is allowed to either run with the ball or play in an even more advanced player and so on....short, sharp and quick. I have to add though, I have a very strict and specific 'gameplan' as to how I want my players to play so only rarely put anyone on high CF, even those with mega skills. In my case the team is more than the individual but your strategy may be different.

PS. In 442 the scoring burden is shared by the midfield and forwards and due to midfielders only rarely having excellent scoring stats, it is imperative that your play creates close range chances. Many 442 setups are far too focused on possession football and thus become way too reliant on long range screamers and/or lucky deflections and/or having a giant for a striker. That is unless you are lucky enough to have a few 20-long-range specialists.

[kinkylola]

hey Murchadh, just a quick question. I notice you saying that you don't use 2 strikers, do you by chance use 1? because i'm having a little problem with my lone striker role. I'm using robinho, but also have cardozo and owen as backups. Can't seem to get any of them to perform. What would you say to a 3 man front line with those players? any opinions? thanks in advance

[Sussex Hammer]

Murchadh, Fantastic reply. Many thanks sir.

[Murchadh]

hey Murchadh, just a quick question. I notice you saying that you don't use 2 strikers, do you by chance use 1? because i'm having a little problem with my lone striker role. I'm using robinho, but also have cardozo and owen as backups. Can't seem to get any of them to perform. What would you say to a 3 man front line with those players? any opinions? thanks in advance

Well, strictly speaking I am using a lone striker, as I think that is how other people would define it, but in reality I am using a 3 man strike force by employing real wingers playing from the AMR/AML positions into FR/FL or (I have two setups based on whether I play AGAINST 1 striker or 2) playing the two wingers directly in the FR/FL positions.

Now looking at what you got:

Robinho = good crossing and passing, great pace, acceleration, creativity and technique and off the ball. You talking about Oscar Cardozo? Fine jumping and heading ability, technique not that hot and pace real bad. Owen....what you need except for the declining pace.

Now if you say 3 man front line I am assuming you mean 3 men in the middle...if so I'd try to create a classic 3-4-3...flat four in midfield and your choice of 2xFB+1xDC or 3xDC or 2xDC+1xSW. The defensive setup would hang on the players you have.

For a central 3-man setup I'd put Cardozo in the middle acting as a true target man (mixed FWR and I am not sure about RWB since he does not have high pace), with the other two flanking him and set to often FWR and often RWB. Try Cardozo on the highest mentality and bump the other two way down...i.e. LOWER than your DCs. (I know this is contra to everything you might have read).

Personally speaking I'd like to use Robinho as a winger...his stats show me he would create havoc as one, but then you would need another winger...they are hard to find.

Be prepared though, with a 3-man strike force you need backup since you are going to have to employ a rotational policy.

Hope that helps

[kinkylola]

thank you, i have some thinking to do ... but you've definitely helped me out