433 Help - Am I overthinking this?

[joey7]

Hi, I started this game on FM23 and carried it over onto FM24, this is why I have players like Tobido/Satulo/Nmecha in what is essentially next season in real life.

Finished 5th 3 years running using a myriad of systems to try and get it over the line... somehow just won the Champions League and now want to kick on, thats why Harry Kane is now up front at 31 years old.

He's the new signing and obviously, I want to build around him. I also have Vitor Roque to work into the system as well.

I'm not the greatest tactician, my mindset is still in the 1990s partnerships around the field influenced by watching teams managed by Ferguson and Wenger.

So Kane is the scorer and creator, Almada is the creative lynchpin and the CM on A is to support attacks and give options up front. The wing backs are on support because crossing from the byline always seems to end up with the GK so dont mind them crossing from a bit further back.

I have the DM on D so he can recycle cleared balls to the wing backs and the AP... maybe the CM could have a different role to add a bit of depth and a passing option if I already have a striker and IF forwards?

I dont have a right back yet as Kyle Walker-Peters demanded £675,000 per week after a Saudi club put in an offer .

So, am I overthinking this tactic? should it work? Any glaringly obvious flaws?

Thanks in advance.

[Cloud9]

8 hours ago, joey7 said:

Hi, I started this game on FM23 and carried it over onto FM24, this is why I have players like Tobido/Satulo/Nmecha in what is essentially next season in real life.

Finished 5th 3 years running using a myriad of systems to try and get it over the line... somehow just won the Champions League and now want to kick on, thats why Harry Kane is now up front at 31 years old.

He's the new signing and obviously, I want to build around him. I also have Vitor Roque to work into the system as well.

I'm not the greatest tactician, my mindset is still in the 1990s partnerships around the field influenced by watching teams managed by Ferguson and Wenger.

So Kane is the scorer and creator, Almada is the creative lynchpin and the CM on A is to support attacks and give options up front. The wing backs are on support because crossing from the byline always seems to end up with the GK so dont mind them crossing from a bit further back.

I have the DM on D so he can recycle cleared balls to the wing backs and the AP... maybe the CM could have a different role to add a bit of depth and a passing option if I already have a striker and IF forwards?

I dont have a right back yet as Kyle Walker-Peters demanded £675,000 per week after a Saudi club put in an offer .

So, am I overthinking this tactic? should it work? Any glaringly obvious flaws?

Thanks in advance.

I think you would find more success trying to possess the ball with players like this, rather than playing on a mid block counter. Aside from that you've got good enough player's to the point where if the tactic isn't working you know its the tactic  This can actually be quite useful when figuring out how you'd like to play, since you don't have to worry about other factors.

Aside from that, give a Halfback a go. That will give you what you're looking for from the BWM(d) (playing out wide after) while being more defensively stable. I suspect you could use a bit more hard work in midfield from the 8's (AP + 2 wingbacks going forward is a lot). Also Complete Forwards are a pain and almost impossible to find. Kane has always been a bit slower, perhaps a DLF(a) would give you a much more successful attack and role for him to operate in. 

Personally I would move the lines up, get rid of the high tempo and counter and stuff like that and play around a bit. 

[joey7]

3 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I think you would find more success trying to possess the ball with players like this, rather than playing on a mid block counter. Aside from that you've got good enough player's to the point where if the tactic isn't working you know its the tactic  This can actually be quite useful when figuring out how you'd like to play, since you don't have to worry about other factors.

Aside from that, give a Halfback a go. That will give you what you're looking for from the BWM(d) (playing out wide after) while being more defensively stable. I suspect you could use a bit more hard work in midfield from the 8's (AP + 2 wingbacks going forward is a lot). Also Complete Forwards are a pain and almost impossible to find. Kane has always been a bit slower, perhaps a DLF(a) would give you a much more successful attack and role for him to operate in. 

Personally I would move the lines up, get rid of the high tempo and counter and stuff like that and play around a bit. 

Hi, thanks for the tips  I'm enjoying the HB, with the BPD, it pushes him out wide and he can help create movement out there Ive noticed. Switched to 2 IF on A and a DLF on S. Slowed tempo down to the middle notch. Think I may need to play narrower to bring the play tighter (this would create space outside for the wing backs?) Midfield is HB behind an AP on S and a BBM.

Still looking at midfield trio, dunno whether just to have them play down wings or not have a particular instruction... also using pass into space, ideally want the balls coming from the WB through to the IF who are in the half space.

[Cloud9]

3 hours ago, joey7 said:

Hi, thanks for the tips  I'm enjoying the HB, with the BPD, it pushes him out wide and he can help create movement out there Ive noticed. Switched to 2 IF on A and a DLF on S. Slowed tempo down to the middle notch. Think I may need to play narrower to bring the play tighter (this would create space outside for the wing backs?) Midfield is HB behind an AP on S and a BBM.

Still looking at midfield trio, dunno whether just to have them play down wings or not have a particular instruction... also using pass into space, ideally want the balls coming from the WB through to the IF who are in the half space.

No problem, happy to help out

Sounds like you're transitioning to a bit of a Liverpool style of play? My only concern would be that might not play to Kane's strengths (ie. he provides great hold up play / end product) but less pressing than a younger forward. When Liverpool's front was firing a few years back, they had the extremely talented and hard working Firmino up front to knit things together (who played in a mix of the DLF(s) + PF(s) roles imo). In terms of Kane himself, I believe he'd benefit from keeping things a bit wider and having inside runners he can play off. 

If you do end up going with a gegenpress style, then high tempo, counter press, narrow width etc. makes a lot of sense, but an aging Harry Kane would struggle to lead the press from the front in such a system.  A lower tempo is the type of play style (perhaps with hit crosses early from the wingbacks) that could help break down opposing sides.

On other roles:

The CM(a) has the potential to score a ton of goals with Kane's linking up the play, but I wouldn't want an IF(a) on his side, perhaps try a IF(s) and see how it goes?. My personal preference would be an Winger(a) on one side played on his off foot, who will operate like an IF that will drive to the byline a bit more often. I would also definitely keep Kane as an DLF(a). The role keeps the hold up play that DLF(s) offers and whenever you've got a star player like this (just looking at the stars he looks a much higher level than the rest of the squad), it's never a bad thing to ask him to score some himself. Off foot winger (a) + IF (s) + DLF(A) would be a very dynamic front 3, especially if supported by a runner from midfield. 

In both systems (esp w/ the gegenpress), with both wingbacks going forward and a fairly attacking front 3, you'll want a more industrious / workman like midfield to do the hard work for the team. I think the BBM is a fine choice for the high quality players, but a CAR pairing would cover the wide spaces if you choose a more attacking role on one of the wingbacks. A simple BWM(s) is another favorite of mine as one of the 8's.

I'd save the AP as a utility player for when you need a role playing squad player off the bench to break down a deep sitting opposition. I usually prefer a CM(s) w/modified PIs for a technical 8 as opposed to the AP unless I'm specifically trying to trigger a rotation.

Just to summarize on width: fairly narrow if going for a high press (not recommend with Kane up front) , middle of the line (what I'd recommended for now) , and fairly wide (only if the wingbacks are rapid, in which case I'd look to run this with hit crosses early, inside runners  will become especially deadly here).

Edited February 24 by Cloud9

[joey7]

On 24/02/2024 at 03:31, Cloud9 said:

No problem, happy to help out

Sounds like you're transitioning to a bit of a Liverpool style of play? My only concern would be that might not play to Kane's strengths (ie. he provides great hold up play / end product) but less pressing than a younger forward. When Liverpool's front was firing a few years back, they had the extremely talented and hard working Firmino up front to knit things together (who played in a mix of the DLF(s) + PF(s) roles imo). In terms of Kane himself, I believe he'd benefit from keeping things a bit wider and having inside runners he can play off. 

If you do end up going with a gegenpress style, then high tempo, counter press, narrow width etc. makes a lot of sense, but an aging Harry Kane would struggle to lead the press from the front in such a system.  A lower tempo is the type of play style (perhaps with hit crosses early from the wingbacks) that could help break down opposing sides.

On other roles:

The CM(a) has the potential to score a ton of goals with Kane's linking up the play, but I wouldn't want an IF(a) on his side, perhaps try a IF(s) and see how it goes?. My personal preference would be an Winger(a) on one side played on his off foot, who will operate like an IF that will drive to the byline a bit more often. I would also definitely keep Kane as an DLF(a). The role keeps the hold up play that DLF(s) offers and whenever you've got a star player like this (just looking at the stars he looks a much higher level than the rest of the squad), it's never a bad thing to ask him to score some himself. Off foot winger (a) + IF (s) + DLF(A) would be a very dynamic front 3, especially if supported by a runner from midfield. 

In both systems (esp w/ the gegenpress), with both wingbacks going forward and a fairly attacking front 3, you'll want a more industrious / workman like midfield to do the hard work for the team. I think the BBM is a fine choice for the high quality players, but a CAR pairing would cover the wide spaces if you choose a more attacking role on one of the wingbacks. A simple BWM(s) is another favorite of mine as one of the 8's.

I'd save the AP as a utility player for when you need a role playing squad player off the bench to break down a deep sitting opposition. I usually prefer a CM(s) w/modified PIs for a technical 8 as opposed to the AP unless I'm specifically trying to trigger a rotation.

Just to summarize on width: fairly narrow if going for a high press (not recommend with Kane up front) , middle of the line (what I'd recommended for now) , and fairly wide (only if the wingbacks are rapid, in which case I'd look to run this with hit crosses early, inside runners  will become especially deadly here).

Gonna have to take a break from it, really frustating at the minute, Kane is invisible, the CM A blazes over every time and every cross that doesnt get blocked and out for a corner is caught by the GK... so yeah, going to take a break.

[Delicate Dave]

If you are not getting success with crosses from the WBs change them to FBs I would. I used to have a lot of problems with WB trying to cross the ball. You certainly can overthink tactics but bear in not one tactic fully suits every game. Although you can win games with just one tactic obvs. So what I'm saying is be flexible with roles but try to keep your team tactics reasonably fixed so the players get used to them. My 2 pence only.

[Cloud9]

7 hours ago, joey7 said:

Gonna have to take a break from it, really frustating at the minute, Kane is invisible, the CM A blazes over every time and every cross that doesnt get blocked and out for a corner is caught by the GK... so yeah, going to take a break.

Breaks can be healthy  Try keeping the morale topped up and you should be smooth sailing.

Whenever I run into a bumpy patch, I try to watch the matches in full for a bit. See how your team is building up in the thirds, and how they progress the ball. Then check out pass maps, look at how you're turning over the ball, and finally check out high xg chances/goals conceded and the same with goals scored.

If there's any glaring issues, you can then look to make small tweaks to the tactic to address them. 

Edited February 25 by Cloud9

[DownTheFrank]

Can i interest you in a...Complete Wingback ?

[joey7]

Right, im back, with more complaints 

Started a new save with Wolfsburg, just having a few niggles that I need to iron out

1. Don't score many from open play.
2. Crosses get blocked, because the players on the wing seem to wait to be closed down before attempting to cross (Play for Set Pieces isnt on, I dont use that)
3. I had an issue with slack and wayward passes, that seems to have resolved itself with going to shorter passing and higher temp (although Arnold cant seem to play consistent passes to his own team mates, maybe we should all wear the same coloured shirts to help him)
4. Can't seem to get the ball to the striker.

Maybe its about players creating space for each other?

Also, Svenberg is useless, his shoots from distance PPM makes him blast it over rather than play the simplest through ball to the 9.

[Cloud9]

50 minutes ago, joey7 said:

Maybe its about players creating space for each other?

• PF(A) -> 10 Jumping reach, 12 anticipation & off the ball. He's going to seriously struggle to lead the line and score as a solo 9.
  • His biggest strength is his killer pace, which would be best utilized running in behind the defensive line. It can help him press as well (quickly closing down defenders).
  • Since his pace is significantly higher than acceleration, he'll struggle to actually hit that top speed when playing in the box. His lack of key mentals will see him struggle to find spaces, especially against compact sides.
  • Fairly Wide Width makes it difficult for him to press efficiently.
    • I would recommend dropping him outside to a off footed W(s) role where he can utilize his top speed and work hard for the team, bringing in a real 9 (either a goalscorer or facilitator) can solve a lot of the issues your facing.
• High tempo high line systems can struggle to score if the opposition parks the bus, a more patient approach can be rewarding and will see less turnovers of possession as you break down the opposition. Counter will also contribute to this problem. 
  • If you commit to the high tempo / high line pressing, you'll want to go narrow width. 
• Try using hit crosses early!
• I would recommend off footed wingers instead of the IW/IF's if you're unhappy w/how they're playing.

Give Svenberg a go as SV(s) in your pivot and see how he does. In terms of the passing issue you bring up, go into their PIs and tell less talented player's to play it short to their teams. You'll need to move the Team passing meters to direct to do this and can move them back afterwards.

Looks like there are rotation issues in the squad as well. All that being said it sounds like things are actually working pretty well for you on the pitch, you're sitting second in the league!

Edited March 21 by Cloud9

[joey7]

29 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

• PF(A) -> 10 Jumping reach, 12 off the ball. He's going to seriously struggle to lead the line and score as a solo 9.
  • His biggest strength is his killer pace, which would be best utilized running in behind the defensive line. It can help him press as well (quickly closing down defenders). I would look at who can be relied on to get goals for you consistently other than him (that could be involve changing to a facilitating 9).
  • Fairly Wide Width makes it difficult for him to press efficiently.
• High tempo high line systems can struggle to score if the opposition parks the bus, a more patient approach can be rewarding and will see less turnovers of possession as you break down the opposition. Counter will also contribute to this problem. 
  • If you commit to the high tempo / high line pressing, you'll want to go narrow width. 
• Try using hit crosses early!
• I would recommend off footed wingers instead of the IW/IF's if you're unhappy w/how they're playing.

Give Svenberg a go as SV(s) in your pivot and see how he does. In terms of the passing issue you bring up, go into their PIs and tell less talented player's to play it short to their teams. You'll need to move the Team passing meters to direct to do this and can move them back afterwards.

Looks like there are rotation issues in the squad as well. All that being said it sounds like things are actually working pretty well for you on the pitch, you're sitting second in the league!

 

The rotation is because those guys are coming back from injuries Llanez and Sarr as they just dont feature.

My 2 first choice strikers are Wind and Demirovic, I prefer Tomas on the wing.

Thanks for the advice on narrow and hit crosses early, ill give them a go.

Quite happy defensively, but obviously, killing games off is a challenge.

Would play through middle help?

Cheers

[Cloud9]

33 minutes ago, joey7 said:

Would play through middle help?

I generally try to target opposition players that are weak through a combination of targeted "play through" TI, role tweaks and OI. I'd recommend that esp in a high press. 

Aside from that I think just running a DM(s) + SV(s) would give you significantly more punch going forward and shouldn't leave you too exposed on the break.

Edited March 21 by Cloud9

[joey7]

On 21/03/2024 at 16:54, Cloud9 said:

• PF(A) -> 10 Jumping reach, 12 anticipation & off the ball. He's going to seriously struggle to lead the line and score as a solo 9.
  • His biggest strength is his killer pace, which would be best utilized running in behind the defensive line. It can help him press as well (quickly closing down defenders).
  • Since his pace is significantly higher than acceleration, he'll struggle to actually hit that top speed when playing in the box. His lack of key mentals will see him struggle to find spaces, especially against compact sides.
  • Fairly Wide Width makes it difficult for him to press efficiently.
    • I would recommend dropping him outside to a off footed W(s) role where he can utilize his top speed and work hard for the team, bringing in a real 9 (either a goalscorer or facilitator) can solve a lot of the issues your facing.
• High tempo high line systems can struggle to score if the opposition parks the bus, a more patient approach can be rewarding and will see less turnovers of possession as you break down the opposition. Counter will also contribute to this problem. 
  • If you commit to the high tempo / high line pressing, you'll want to go narrow width. 
• Try using hit crosses early!
• I would recommend off footed wingers instead of the IW/IF's if you're unhappy w/how they're playing.

Give Svenberg a go as SV(s) in your pivot and see how he does. In terms of the passing issue you bring up, go into their PIs and tell less talented player's to play it short to their teams. You'll need to move the Team passing meters to direct to do this and can move them back afterwards.

Looks like there are rotation issues in the squad as well. All that being said it sounds like things are actually working pretty well for you on the pitch, you're sitting second in the league!

Oh! because the tactic is narrower, the wingers on opposite feet will act like inside forward/inverted wingers anyway? Is that right?

[HanziZoloman]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb joey7:

Oh! because the tactic is narrower, the wingers on opposite feet will act like inside forward/inverted wingers anyway? Is that right?

Kind of, they stay wide but cut inside sometimes because of their stronger foot. But it’s not the same movement like an IF or IW

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Kind of, they stay wide but cut inside sometimes because of their stronger foot. But it’s not the same movement like an IF or IW

Yea exactly! They operate more in line with the edge of the 18 yard box than the edge of the pitch like a true winger, but still drive toward the byline (esp. on the attack duty) and take on their defender. I prefer the movement to that of an IF/IW in most occasions and they should provide you plenty of end product.

 @joey7 only clarification is that the movement is due to the role, not the attacking width set in your TI (although it will impact their starting position).

I'm pretty sure this was an unintended interaction on FM23 and before as the game would give you like 1.5 stars for a good player in your team attempting to play the role  On Fm24 the devs appear to be onboard with the role being actually quite nice, and the game will give you more accurate "recommended" star ratings as normal. A pure winger remains a good role for fairly one dimensional players, a player w/ poor mentals or lacks the ability to participate in linkup play with his teammates. 

Edited March 23 by Cloud9

[Delicate Dave]

On 21/03/2024 at 16:35, joey7 said:

Right, im back, with more complaints 

Started a new save with Wolfsburg, just having a few niggles that I need to iron out

1. Don't score many from open play.
2. Crosses get blocked, because the players on the wing seem to wait to be closed down before attempting to cross (Play for Set Pieces isnt on, I dont use that)
3. I had an issue with slack and wayward passes, that seems to have resolved itself with going to shorter passing and higher temp (although Arnold cant seem to play consistent passes to his own team mates, maybe we should all wear the same coloured shirts to help him)
4. Can't seem to get the ball to the striker.

Maybe its about players creating space for each other?

Also, Svenberg is useless, his shoots from distance PPM makes him blast it over rather than play the simplest through ball to the 9.

I've had these problems in the past, the players trying to make the cross have to be able to dribble, have decent pace & be able to cross. If you don't have that then you will need to play slower and create the space for them by using other players to take the full backs inside. You might also want to try removing the centre AM and having two forwards, and pushing the DM into CM as you are pressing but if you do that you want at least 3 of your defenders on defence. On defence your full back will still get forward if you are pressing because they'll always go into space created by that pressing.

[Delicate Dave]

On 26/02/2024 at 00:00, DownTheFrank said:

Can i interest you in a...Complete Wingback ?

Only the highest quality ones, because I've found in general 90% of them are bad at both ends of the pitch. So depends if you want to defend with your WB or ATTACK if you don't have the few in FM that are really good.

[joey7]

So quick update.

I switched to very narrow and shorter passing and slower tempo... took all the advice offered with 2 games left.

First match was a 1-1 draw with Bayern Munich, which was mainly about the defence as they completely dominating as you'd imagine. Svenberg scored 20m out from Segundo Volante... another bit of advice from here!

This left us on 1 point behind Bayern with 1 match left, they were against Hoffenheim and we were against Mainz, they lost 3-0, and we won 5-1, all the changes kicked in. Thiago Tomas scored twice from IF and Nmecha scored from a through ball... something I hadnt managed to get going properly all year.

I did change the RB to a IWB on Attack, as this formed as 2-3-3-2 kind of formation in attack,

So thanks for all the advice, ill be back next season when it goes wrong