Advice/tweaks to my Leeds 4231 (4th season, FM23)

[marcobell14]

First off, love this tactics forum, regularly get new ideas from here.
Consider myself a pretty experienced player, but would love a second pair of eyes on my tactic.

In a neck and neck title battle with Newcastle for the league in my fourth season (came a close 3rd last two seasons), but just lost the League Cup Final to West Ham 1 - 0, where we dominated possession but were dreadful in attack, creating very little. Have scored pretty freely across the campaign, and actually won the Champions League last season (only silverware so far but not a bad one!) with this tactic. I also find that sometimes against big sides I will have extremely low xg and create nothing. I don't know if the team is just having a rough few games/fatigued, but is there any areas of the tactic which are obviously lacking? I've been wanting to fine tune it anyway. 

x2 screenshots attached of tactic (with slight variation of roles).

Some of my thoughts/observations:

- Missing link to go to next level may just be a top level striker. I play either Toney as a PF or Gnonto as an AF depending on opposition. Both are good, but now only 3 stars in my squad (Toney was 4 stars at start of season). Toney used to be very effective as a PF but isn't making an impact in the role as much now. Gnonto more and more seems to be the most effective as an AF, though he has no height/strength and inconsistency as a trait so can't be fully relied on. I've also suspected for a while they're traits are contradictory at times. Toney's attached in screenshot, he came with all these when I signed him. Gnonto (screenshot attached too) I mentored under Toney, so he picked up likes ball played into feet which was annoying. 

- Both my wingers are really strong. They have great flair and suit IW (A), and this works really well majority of games. In the hole I wanted an AM (S) to be available to my double pivot and from observing in the match engine this seems to be the case but I suspect something is lacking a bit. I don't have any PI's on the AM (S) right now, I can't quite figure out with the roles around him and their movement if there would be any to select to really unlock more out of the role. And am I lacking goal scoring penetration? I can never seem to get a tune out of an IF and my first choice wingers are much better suited IW, but I could spend in summer to get one. I also sometimes play a W (A) on the right if I want more width against certain opposition. 

- BWM I've always struggled to make work in FM but I love it as a role. But I signed Manu Kone and he is first BWM I've had success with, he is everywhere and gets +7.00 every game, so want to keep that as is. I then usually pair with a DLP (S) on the right, or a DM (S) for tougher opposition. Is there any improvements I can make to the pivot? Or change of roles? 

- We have always been really solid at the back with a standard line, plus my GK is not suited to SK and gets excellent ratings as GK (D), so don't really want to play a high line. But let me know if anything could be improved here too.

Cheers!

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, marcobell14 said:

First off, love this tactics forum, regularly get new ideas from here.
Consider myself a pretty experienced player, but would love a second pair of eyes on my tactic.

In a neck and neck title battle with Newcastle for the league in my fourth season (came a close 3rd last two seasons), but just lost the League Cup Final to West Ham 1 - 0, where we dominated possession but were dreadful in attack, creating very little. Have scored pretty freely across the campaign, and actually won the Champions League last season (only silverware so far but not a bad one!) with this tactic. I also find that sometimes against big sides I will have extremely low xg and create nothing. I don't know if the team is just having a rough few games/fatigued, but is there any areas of the tactic which are obviously lacking? I've been wanting to fine tune it anyway. 

x2 screenshots attached of tactic (with slight variation of roles).

Some of my thoughts/observations:

- Missing link to go to next level may just be a top level striker. I play either Toney as a PF or Gnonto as an AF depending on opposition. Both are good, but now only 3 stars in my squad (Toney was 4 stars at start of season). Toney used to be very effective as a PF but isn't making an impact in the role as much now. Gnonto more and more seems to be the most effective as an AF, though he has no height/strength and inconsistency as a trait so can't be fully relied on. I've also suspected for a while they're traits are contradictory at times. Toney's attached in screenshot, he came with all these when I signed him. Gnonto (screenshot attached too) I mentored under Toney, so he picked up likes ball played into feet which was annoying. 

- Both my wingers are really strong. They have great flair and suit IW (A), and this works really well majority of games. In the hole I wanted an AM (S) to be available to my double pivot and from observing in the match engine this seems to be the case but I suspect something is lacking a bit. I don't have any PI's on the AM (S) right now, I can't quite figure out with the roles around him and their movement if there would be any to select to really unlock more out of the role. And am I lacking goal scoring penetration? I can never seem to get a tune out of an IF and my first choice wingers are much better suited IW, but I could spend in summer to get one. I also sometimes play a W (A) on the right if I want more width against certain opposition. 

- BWM I've always struggled to make work in FM but I love it as a role. But I signed Manu Kone and he is first BWM I've had success with, he is everywhere and gets +7.00 every game, so want to keep that as is. I then usually pair with a DLP (S) on the right, or a DM (S) for tougher opposition. Is there any improvements I can make to the pivot? Or change of roles? 

- We have always been really solid at the back with a standard line, plus my GK is not suited to SK and gets excellent ratings as GK (D), so don't really want to play a high line. But let me know if anything could be improved here too.

Cheers!

I like your first setup, but as one of the big sides now it might be time to take the hand break off in terms of roles. Getting an IF in there and a more adventurous pivot could be good steps. If you want to keep the pivot, let both wingbacks go forward and have the amc roam. Run a double BPD, stuff like this. You want to exert more control over the game vs weaker sides to win the league.

On struggling with an IF, Schjelderup is perfect for the role (as is Gnonto). A facilitating, hold the ball up striker like toney as a PF(s) could work quite nicely to get the wide players scoring and link up w/ the amc.

I would also recommend figuring out a plan B to all out high lines pressing. Although if you've already won the champions league, there's probably not too much to worry about

Edited August 3, 2023 by Cloud9

[marcobell14]

42 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

I like your first setup, but as one of the big sides now it might be time to take the hand break off in terms of roles. Getting an IF in there and a more adventurous pivot could be good steps. If you want to keep the pivot, let both wingbacks go forward and have the amc roam. Run a double BPD, stuff like this. You want to exert more control over the game vs weaker sides to win the league.

On struggling with an IF, Schjelderup is perfect for the role (as is Gnonto). A facilitating, hold the ball up striker like toney as a PF(s) could work quite nicely to get the wide players scoring and link up w/ the amc.

I would also recommend figuring out a plan B to all out high lines pressing. Although if you've already won the champions league, there's probably not too much to worry about

@Cloud9 Cheers man, that's really helpful.
Few follow ups if you don't mind adding additional thoughts: 

I think you're right re: letting hand break off, though I've found this is the first season (the league cup final aside, but it's good advice for such instances) where I'm starting to win pretty convincingly against the weaker sides even with the tactic as it is. For upping my xG against the big sides, would you still make your suggestions or am I expecting too much with my players current ability level to go away to Liverpool and win 2 - 1? I know it won't always happen for sure, but I find the tactic sometimes just doesn't have any xG in these games (earlier in season I had 0 shots vs Arsenal away), so wondering if even against big sides I can be more adventurous, while playing say the DM in the pivot to still keep it solid? 

Re: IF - yeah Schjelderup does have the attributes, I tried him as an IF a while back but probably wasn't patient enough, so going to try again. Gnonto I've tried as an IF a lot of times and he doesn't seem to perform, don't think the ball into feet trait he picked up from Toney helps for that. 

If I put Toney to PF (s) would you be suggesting the AM goes to (A)? To make runs ahead of him? 

And if I wanted to go with an AF from next season do you still like to run an IF too? Or two wingers so the AF can be the main goalscorer? I guess the AF runs the channels as a set instruction, so it's good having another player making goalscoring runs into the box?

Re: plan B for high pressing, you mean for how my team deals with an opposition that presses aggressively? Funnily enough Pochettino is back at Saints and loves an intense press, and we've played them five times this season (league, FA Cup w/ replay and League Cup) and struggle. Is there something in my current tactic that is a weak spot vs intense pressing? 

Edited August 3, 2023 by marcobell14

[Johnny Ace]

If you're struggling to create chances I'd recommended having at least one of your wide forwards on Support, I guess they get themselves into attacking areas fairly early on in your attacks so aren't available in the build up

8 hours ago, marcobell14 said:

- Missing link to go to next level may just be a top level striker. I play either Toney as a PF or Gnonto as an AF depending on opposition. Both are good, but now only 3 stars in my squad (Toney was 4 stars at start of season). Toney used to be very effective as a PF but isn't making an impact in the role as much now. Gnonto more and more seems to be the most effective as an AF, though he has no height/strength and inconsistency as a trait so can't be fully relied on. I've also suspected for a while they're traits are contradictory at times. Toney's attached in screenshot, he came with all these when I signed him. Gnonto (screenshot attached too) I mentored under Toney, so he picked up likes ball played into feet which was annoying. 

Toney Comes Deep To Get Ball and Gnonto has 4 Jumping Reach, they're huge no no's for me if I want an AF/PF(A). It might be doing Toney a favour here but Gnonto will struggle massively when the ball's in the air

Part of the reason they could now be struggling is what I touched on above, you're a Champions League winner so teams respect you more, they're keeping things a bit tighter against you. Having 3 players aggressively attack the box brings markers with them which just means more bodies to work through to get to goal which makes it more difficult to create good chances  

8 hours ago, marcobell14 said:

- In the hole I wanted an AM (S) to be available to my double pivot and from observing in the match engine this seems to be the case but I suspect something is lacking a bit. I don't have any PI's on the AM (S) right now, I can't quite figure out with the roles around him and their movement if there would be any to select to really unlock more out of the role. 

He's probably struggling to pick anyone out, PIs are useful but I don't think he's the issue here 

8 hours ago, marcobell14 said:

. And am I lacking goal scoring penetration?

 Not at all, you're playing a top heavy formation with 3 of the 4 on Attack. Support duties AM(R/L/C) players can score plenty  

9 hours ago, marcobell14 said:

 I can never seem to get a tune out of an IF and my first choice wingers are much better suited IW, but I could spend in summer to get one. I also sometimes play a W (A) on the right if I want more width against certain opposition. 
 

I don't think an IF(A) here will be helpful 

9 hours ago, marcobell14 said:

- BWM I've always struggled to make work in FM but I love it as a role. But I signed Manu Kone and he is first BWM I've had success with, he is everywhere and gets +7.00 every game, so want to keep that as is. I then usually pair with a DLP (S) on the right, or a DM (S) for tougher opposition. Is there any improvements I can make to the pivot? Or change of roles? 
 

Your DM's look fine, a BWM midfielder in a two can potentially be dragged out of position so it's something too look out for. I think your backline looks a bit safe, your right back could easily be a Wingback(S) in both systems. 

TLDR: Try IW(S)'s and another Wingback   

[marcobell14]

8 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

If you're struggling to create chances I'd recommended having at least one of your wide forwards on Support, I guess they get themselves into attacking areas fairly early on in your attacks so aren't available in the build up

Toney Comes Deep To Get Ball and Gnonto has 4 Jumping Reach, they're huge no no's for me if I want an AF/PF(A). It might be doing Toney a favour here but Gnonto will struggle massively when the ball's in the air

Part of the reason they could now be struggling is what I touched on above, you're a Champions League winner so teams respect you more, they're keeping things a bit tighter against you. Having 3 players aggressively attack the box brings markers with them which just means more bodies to work through to get to goal which makes it more difficult to create good chances  

He's probably struggling to pick anyone out, PIs are useful but I don't think he's the issue here 

 Not at all, you're playing a top heavy formation with 3 of the 4 on Attack. Support duties AM(R/L/C) players can score plenty  

I don't think an IF(A) here will be helpful 

Your DM's look fine, a BWM midfielder in a two can potentially be dragged out of position so it's something too look out for. I think your backline looks a bit safe, your right back could easily be a Wingback(S) in both systems. 

TLDR: Try IW(S)'s and another Wingback   

@Johnny Ace Great points and confirming some of my suspicions. 

Been wanting to go with another WB on the right, but don't have the right player for it currently. Main transfer target for summer.

Just on one point, re: IF (A) not being helpful, what is your thinking as to why? I'm inclined to try Schjelderup as an IF (S) on the left, as I agree another support role is needed, and as I feel that would compliment the WB on the left better. It would be good too for having someone pushing in to space for the PF to find when he wins possession or for the AM to pass in space to (but maybe my logic here is flawed?). Also when I rotate and use the W for more width on the right I'm thinking better to have someone running in behind on the other side. Also do you prefer two IW when playing with an AF (as I do use Gnonto there against mid/lower teams to good effect despite his height) or can an IF still work well with an AF? As one is moving into channels and the other is cutting in to space from wide so could be a good fluid combo. I just haven't been able to figure out through the match engine what an IF jives well/does not jive well with. But it's one of my favourite roles in real life, so I'd love to work it in somehow. 

[Johnny Ace]

4 minutes ago, marcobell14 said:

Just on one point, re: IF (A) not being helpful, what is your thinking as to why?

An IF(A) is pretty much a wide striker, the main thing he'll be interested in is getting shots off and scoring goals, think prime Mo Salah, he was pretty much the main goal scorer for Liverpool, in FM he would be an IF(A).

Whilst I'm on Liverpool, think of when they brought in Nunez, you could say he was a PF(A), it didn't work, Salah went to an IF(S) then Nunez got dropped in favour of a more creative striker and role, a F9 or DLF or whatever Jota/ Gakpo were being used as, more akin to the classic DLF/ IF(A) partnership of Firminho and Salah and Liverpool started picking back up. Bare in mind, your 4-2-3-1 DM has an extra attacking player compared to Liverpool's 4-3-3 too  

You have your AF/PF in Toney and Gnonto, what I'm trying to say is you don't need another out and out goalscorer from out wide, it'll just make things harder for both players 

14 minutes ago, marcobell14 said:

 I'm inclined to try Schjelderup as an IF (S) on the left, as I agree another support role is needed, and as I feel that would compliment the WB on the left better. 

 I think that's a great idea 

15 minutes ago, marcobell14 said:

It would be good too for having someone pushing in to space for the PF to find when he wins possession or for the AM to pass in space to (but maybe my logic here is flawed?). 

That makes sense to me 

16 minutes ago, marcobell14 said:

Also do you prefer two IW when playing with an AF (as I do use Gnonto there against mid/lower teams to good effect despite his height) or can an IF still work well with an AF? 

Both can work well, even an IF on Support is a very attacking role, not quite the level of an IF(A) but it's not far off. I find them very aggressive in my 4-2-3-1 DM setups so I usually use a Winger/ IW combo on the flanks. It's something you can try out in game, see how it plays out and see which one you prefer. The only thing I tend to avoid when playing an AF is dual Wingers, dual IFs and IF's on Attack 

 

23 minutes ago, marcobell14 said:

@Johnny Ace. I just haven't been able to figure out through the match engine what an IF jives well/does not jive well with. But it's one of my favourite roles in real life, so I'd love to work it in somehow. 

 They're great in 4-3-3s and I like them in 4-2-3-1 DM's with a striker role that isn't pressing on the backline or trying to get in behind. I usually pair them up with a DLF(S/A), F9 or CF(S/A) ie a role that drops off and/or roams as an extra goal scoring option (if needed) 

[Cloud9]

On 02/08/2023 at 19:19, marcobell14 said:

@Cloud9 Cheers man, that's really helpful.
Few follow ups if you don't mind adding additional thoughts: 

I think you're right re: letting hand break off, though I've found this is the first season (the league cup final aside, but it's good advice for such instances) where I'm starting to win pretty convincingly against the weaker sides even with the tactic as it is. For upping my xG against the big sides, would you still make your suggestions or am I expecting too much with my players current ability level to go away to Liverpool and win 2 - 1? I know it won't always happen for sure, but I find the tactic sometimes just doesn't have any xG in these games (earlier in season I had 0 shots vs Arsenal away), so wondering if even against big sides I can be more adventurous, while playing say the DM in the pivot to still keep it solid? 

Re: IF - yeah Schjelderup does have the attributes, I tried him as an IF a while back but probably wasn't patient enough, so going to try again. Gnonto I've tried as an IF a lot of times and he doesn't seem to perform, don't think the ball into feet trait he picked up from Toney helps for that. 

If I put Toney to PF (s) would you be suggesting the AM goes to (A)? To make runs ahead of him? 

And if I wanted to go with an AF from next season do you still like to run an IF too? Or two wingers so the AF can be the main goalscorer? I guess the AF runs the channels as a set instruction, so it's good having another player making goalscoring runs into the box?

Re: plan B for high pressing, you mean for how my team deals with an opposition that presses aggressively? Funnily enough Pochettino is back at Saints and loves an intense press, and we've played them five times this season (league, FA Cup w/ replay and League Cup) and struggle. Is there something in my current tactic that is a weak spot vs intense pressing? 

The more conservative roles are just fine against the big clubs, I agree about working in a supporting role out of one of the two wide players for when you're running the PF(a)/AF. If you're not creating any chances against the opposition I would look to see why before making changes. Possession, passing maps, stats etc. can be good indicators of what's going wrong. 

I like the AMC and Striker to have separate roles as a general rule, but it's more important to get the the front 4 to have a nice balance in a 4-2-3-1. A good rule of thumb is having two real goal scorers in your frontline. If running an IF + AF, go with the IF(s) as mentioned. 

On Plan B: Your tactic is an intense high press, which can leave the game pretty open against another press, and can struggle to break down teams that park the bus. You might look for a version you can utilize to  control the game a little more, stretches the pitch, and provides overloading runs from deep(SV in double pivot for example). Alternatively you can look to push the high press to the maximum and bring in different personal who you can utilize to change how your team plays when things aren't working/not creating chances. 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Cloud9

[marcobell14]

11 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

The more conservative roles are just fine against the big clubs, I agree about working in a supporting role out of one of the two wide players for when you're running the PF(a)/AF. If you're not creating any chances against the opposition I would look to see why before making changes. Possession, passing maps, stats etc. can be good indicators of what's going wrong. 

I like the AMC and Striker to have separate roles as a general rule, but it's more important to get the the front 4 to have a nice balance in a 4-2-3-1. A good rule of thumb is having two real goal scorers in your frontline. If running an IF + AF, go with the IF(s) as mentioned. 

On Plan B: Your tactic is an intense high press, which can leave the game pretty open against another press, and can struggle to break down teams that park the bus. You might look for a version you can utilize to  control the game a little more, stretches the pitch, and provides overloading runs from deep(SV in double pivot for example). Alternatively you can look to push the high press to the maximum and bring in different personal who you can utilize to change how your team plays when things aren't working/not creating chances. 

@Cloud9 Cool, thanks man! 

[TheMartello]

What are the player instructions in your tactic?