Celtic FC player Attributes

[DavidH]

How much research is devoted to individual player attributes and do the researchers actually observe the players they are rating?

Let me give a few examples

Kyogo Furuhashi (ST) given the same finishing attribute (12) as Alexandro Bernabei (LB)

Leil Abada (AMR) with a dribbling of 13  compared with Callum McGregor  14 and 3 CB Welsh, Starfelt  and CCV at 12

James Forrest (AMR) awarded a tackling of 12!! (I've never seen him make a tackle in his life)  which is the same as Starfelt (CB) and Ralston (RB)

These are only a few examples, but they tell me that the person awarding them has never observed these players or done any sort of research into their real life abilities. For a game that prides itself in portraying as an accurate reflection on the real thing this is really disappointing considering it's only a week or so since a update that it was claimed updated the attributes of thousands of players.

[HUNT3R]

Celtic have a dedicated researcher and Scotland has a head researcher, as well as SI staff overseeing the research. Researchers watch a lot of football and it is disrespectful to suggest they don't.

Attributes like Finishing, Dribbling etc are just a part of the bigger picture. For instance, there's more to finishing than just Finishing alone. Attributes like Decisions, Composure, Balance and Technique will all play a part in finishing off a chance. It's the same for probably all of the other Technical Attributes.

Researchers are open to making changes if someone can show that a player's attributes aren't what it should be. Backing up claims with data is the best way to do so. 

I don't watch Celtic and I don't know these players, but quickly looking into some of these players' data, James Forrest averages 0.75 tackles per match, so hyperbole like "I've never seen him make a tackle in his life" is completely wrong and won't help the discussion.

Abada has a dribble success rate of 33,3% (though he does attempt a lot more dribbles compare to the other 4 you mention) might indicate that his rating is correct. If anything it might indicate that some of the others' dribbling could be lowered. CCV attempted only 7 dribbles so far, but has a 100% success rate, FWIW. McGregor has a 59% success rate. You may have a case for Starfelt and Welsh as they don't seem to even attempt dribbling much, with 1 attempt and 0 attempts respectively. Still though, as I mentioned earlier, there are more attributes involved in successful dribbling than just the Dribbling attribute.

If you look at any attribute in isolation, it's easy to do a comparison and say this player should be better than the other. It's the mix of all the attributes that makes a player what he is. It's often recommended that you observe the player's performance in-game and whether that matches up with the real life version.

If you do have data issues where you feel attributes aren't correct and you can back up your claims, please raise it in the Scotland Premiership Data Issues section here: https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2023-bugs-tracker/database-and-research/

It can then be considered for future updates.

[DavidH]

7 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Celtic have a dedicated researcher and Scotland has a head researcher, as well as SI staff overseeing the research. Researchers watch a lot of football and it is disrespectful to suggest they don't.

Attributes like Finishing, Dribbling etc are just a part of the bigger picture. For instance, there's more to finishing than just Finishing alone. Attributes like Decisions, Composure, Balance and Technique will all play a part in finishing off a chance. It's the same for probably all of the other Technical Attributes.

Researchers are open to making changes if someone can show that a player's attributes aren't what it should be. Backing up claims with data is the best way to do so. 

I don't watch Celtic and I don't know these players, but quickly looking into some of these players' data, James Forrest averages 0.75 tackles per match, so hyperbole like "I've never seen him make a tackle in his life" is completely wrong and won't help the discussion.

Abada has a dribble success rate of 33,3% (though he does attempt a lot more dribbles compare to the other 4 you mention) might indicate that his rating is correct. If anything it might indicate that some of the others' dribbling could be lowered. CCV attempted only 7 dribbles so far, but has a 100% success rate, FWIW. McGregor has a 59% success rate. You may have a case for Starfelt and Welsh as they don't seem to even attempt dribbling much, with 1 attempt and 0 attempts respectively. Still though, as I mentioned earlier, there are more attributes involved in successful dribbling than just the Dribbling attribute.

If you look at any attribute in isolation, it's easy to do a comparison and say this player should be better than the other. It's the mix of all the attributes that makes a player what he is. It's often recommended that you observe the player's performance in-game and whether that matches up with the real life version.

If you do have data issues where you feel attributes aren't correct and you can back up your claims, please raise it in the Scotland Premiership Data Issues section here: https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2023-bugs-tracker/database-and-research/

It can then be considered for future 

Thanks for the reply and pointing me in the right direction to provide the information I feel will back up my assertions. I look forward to providing the evidence to prove James Forrst couldn't tackle a fish supper 😀

[DavidH]

14 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Celtic have a dedicated researcher and Scotland has a head researcher, as well as SI staff overseeing the research. Researchers watch a lot of football and it is disrespectful to suggest they don't.

Attributes like Finishing, Dribbling etc are just a part of the bigger picture. For instance, there's more to finishing than just Finishing alone. Attributes like Decisions, Composure, Balance and Technique will all play a part in finishing off a chance. It's the same for probably all of the other Technical Attributes.

Researchers are open to making changes if someone can show that a player's attributes aren't what it should be. Backing up claims with data is the best way to do so. 

I don't watch Celtic and I don't know these players, but quickly looking into some of these players' data, James Forrest averages 0.75 tackles per match, so hyperbole like "I've never seen him make a tackle in his life" is completely wrong and won't help the discussion.

Abada has a dribble success rate of 33,3% (though he does attempt a lot more dribbles compare to the other 4 you mention) might indicate that his rating is correct. If anything it might indicate that some of the others' dribbling could be lowered. CCV attempted only 7 dribbles so far, but has a 100% success rate, FWIW. McGregor has a 59% success rate. You may have a case for Starfelt and Welsh as they don't seem to even attempt dribbling much, with 1 attempt and 0 attempts respectively. Still though, as I mentioned earlier, there are more attributes involved in successful dribbling than just the Dribbling attribute.

If you look at any attribute in isolation, it's easy to do a comparison and say this player should be better than the other. It's the mix of all the attributes that makes a player what he is. It's often recommended that you observe the player's performance in-game and whether that matches up with the real life version.

If you do have data issues where you feel attributes aren't correct and you can back up your claims, please raise it in the Scotland Premiership Data Issues section here: https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2023-bugs-tracker/database-and-research/

It can then be considered for future updates.

I've posted this on the relevant forum but thought i'd share  with you as you took the time to reply to my original post.

Hi

I recently posted a comment regarding Celtic FC player attributes on another forum and was directed here to expand on my  observations.

I would like to highlight examples of where it appears player attributes have been over and under valued.

I would like to first share some data that I think shows the finishing value for Kyogo Furuhashi has been undervalued while the same attribute for Matt O'Riley has been significantly overvalued

i will be using data from the game as well as statistical data from the FotMob  app for season 22/23 to provide evidence for this, for comparison I am also including data for Alfredo Morelos a striker who also plays in the Scottish Premiership for Rangers.

 Lets look firstly at the key Attributes associated with Finishing for all 3 players

                        Finishing  technique anticipation composure concentration decisions

Furuhashi            12               14                 16                12                 14                    11

O'Riley                  12               15                 12                14                 12                    11

Morelos               14                14                 16                 5                   8                     12

Note that O'Rileys Finishing is the same as Furuhashi and his technique and composure are both higher, then compare this with what the real world data shows us. it is also of interest that Morelos has composure of 5, far too low I would suggest given his higher finishing of 14.

So what does the real world data tell us. Scottish Premiership 22/23 season

                        Goals    xG    Goals per 90 min SOT 90 min  Shots per 90 min  SOT % Conversion Rate 

Furuhashi          20     15.3             1.06                   1.6                       3.3                 48.4            23.8%

O'Riley                 1       4.4              0.05                    1                         2.6                  37.7             1.5%

Morelos             13      10.3            0.72                    2                         5.1                  39.7             10.3%

It is also worth noting that neither Furuhashi or Morelos take penalty kicks for their respective teams.

In my opinion this data shows it cannot be correct for Furuhashi's Finishing to be lower than Morelos given his more than double rate of conversation  and O'Rileys finishing attributes are significantly higher than his Conversation rate  would suggest they should be.

Cheers.

[HUNT3R]

Thanks for the post here as well. The question is still - how are they performing in the game compared to real life? You've done well to list a few attributes (though Concentration should be replaced by Balance and Morelos has 13 to Furuhashi's 12) but your conclusion takes only 1 attribute into account.

Morelos has very poor Composure and that's going influence his goal scoring in-game.

I've hidden this under a spoiler as I'm going to mention CA and a hidden attribute:

Spoiler

It's also worth pointing out that Furuhashi has a CA that is 7 points more than Morelos. He's also more Consistent by 3 points.

 

As mentioned earlier, have you looked at how they perform in-game? Furuhashi should be quite effective given he's 2 footed, more composed and more consistent.

As for O'Riley, it seems he was a decent finisher last season, for both Celtic and MK Dons. Obviously as a midfielder, he doesn't get into the box that much, but he scored 4 from 18 shots for Celtic and 7 from 22 for MK Dons.

 

[DavidH]

On 10/03/2023 at 05:24, HUNT3R said:

Thanks for the post here as well. The question is still - how are they performing in the game compared to real life? You've done well to list a few attributes (though Concentration should be replaced by Balance and Morelos has 13 to Furuhashi's 12) but your conclusion takes only 1 attribute into account.

Morelos has very poor Composure and that's going influence his goal scoring in-game.

I've hidden this under a spoiler as I'm going to mention CA and a hidden attribute:

  Hide contents

It's also worth pointing out that Furuhashi has a CA that is 7 points more than Morelos. He's also more Consistent by 3 points.

 

As mentioned earlier, have you looked at how they perform in-game? Furuhashi should be quite effective given he's 2 footed, more composed and more consistent.

As for O'Riley, it seems he was a decent finisher last season, for both Celtic and MK Dons. Obviously as a midfielder, he doesn't get into the box that much, but he scored 4 from 18 shots for Celtic and 7 from 22 for MK Dons.

 

Hi, first off an apology, it was wrong of me to suggest that the researchers had not observed the players in 'real life' it's obvious that a tremendous amount of work often unpaid goes into compiling the data and  assisting the programmers to allow them to create the player attributes. Players such as Bernabei and Forrest do not get a lot of game time so it must be a challenge to gauge their true strengths and weaknesses. 

As per your suggestion I have 4 seasons of simulated data for Kyogo

Season 22/23 27 games 7 goals

Season 23/24 33 games 27 goals

Season 24/25 33 games 18 goals

Season 25/26 38 games  34 goals 

So overall 131 games 86 goals so a goals to game ratio of 0.66 goals a game 

Compare this to his record while at Celtic in the Scottish Premiership which is 46 games and 32 goals. A goals to game ration of 0.70

By way of comparison and to give some additional context to his in game record, Alfredo Morelos who could be considered the leagues second best striker had the following record of the 4 league campaigns 

93 games 44 goals as ratio of 0.48

So to summarise it is fair to conclude that his 'in game' record is an accurate reflection of his 'real life'  performance and for that the researchers and programmers deserve plaudits.

When I consider his other attributes OTB 18, work rate 17,  acceleration 15, pace 15, agility 15, anticipation 16, determination 18, aggression 18, composure 12 and balance 12  and then take into account his scoring record I still struggle to get my head round his finishing only being a 12 but it appears that this attribute is less important than others as there are 30 players in my save in the Scottish Premiership with a higher finishing attribute than him who will not get close to his scoring record but maybe that statistic is something worth reflecting on when future updates occur as perhaps some players are rated too highly in this regard.