Realistic Career Path/Job Offers/Human Manager Reputation

[Domoboy23]

Hello. I'm starting this thread to hopefully gauge some opinions and discussion around the current state of human manager reputation within the game and coaching badges having far too a prominent effect on reputation and therefore job offers.

Around 90% of my saves start as an unemployed journeyman with a huge amount of nations and leagues loaded and zero playing experience and zero playing badges and try and work my way up. I really enjoy success and I equally enjoy the story and frustrations of failing and then having to try salvage your career and work back up. I have fond memories of overperforming with an average squad and reaching the Championship playoffs on FM21 for 4 seasons in a row and bottling it each time, almost getting them relegated the following season, and subsequently sacked.

I strongly believe that downward spirals such as Phil Brown (Premiership with Hull to managing Southend in the Conference in the space of 11 years) should be part of the parcel, and entirely possible in FM.

I remember (I can't recall if it was FM 20/21/22 or all of them) a bit of a reputation issue which I raised a bug about. It seemed incredibly easy for example, to be managing an Conference side and underperform and be sacked and then in the media be asked about the Arsenal job etc. I believe this is still the case now. It's annoying, but not a gamebreaker as I can just ignore this. However, you would then quite easily find a job in the Conference again (rather than dropping down like many would in real life as an unknown manager one or two seasons into managing and underperforming) and sometimes after time even be offered L2 and L1 jobs. Using the in-game editor at the time seemed to suggest that winning a Conference title would bump your rep by 500-600 pts but going from a National C to a National B would bumpy it by 1800.

I think it should be a challenge to find a job. There's nothing worse than being offered a job and thinking... is this because I deserve this, or is this a bug?. Do I feel dirty for taking this job?

One of the things that I quickly realised was that job offers seemed to take license into account more than reputation and history.
Some simulations found that my manager with no badges and no experience, who was unemployed following poor performance would be offered Conference jobs.
However, my manager with a Continental C and no experience, who was unemployed following poor performance would be offered Conference, L2, L1 and even the odd Championship job.

This of course isn't realistic as clubs go more based on history and reputation within the game rather than badges alone.

For my current save I started with no coaching badges and no exp and joined Huddersfield (yes, not realistic but I had a backstory in my head) :D. We went down, we then rebuilt and narrowly avoided admin and showed season on season progress before finally going up. When we went up it was a bit of a disaster and relegation prevailed after a 23 game winless streak.

At that point I'd expect to get offers from L1 sides wanting slow stability and season on season improvement, as well as perhaps Champ sides relegated into L1 and not wanting to go into free fall. I then went abroad to Pogon (made sense to me, a similar rep to the Championship and budgets, player standard and attendances in line with L1) and lasted just 13 games before getting my P45.

I have no idea why I would be offered the Fulham job. They were 20th and looking to avoid relegation. Which I've attempted and failed with twice in the Championship. I have a Continental C License. I really expected (and i guess hoped) that the sacking from Pogon would make me really have to rebuild either in L1 or a second/top tier in a more obscure country. Surely my reputation should've taken a hefty hit. Why would I be offered a Prem job? Does this seem right to people?

Edited February 28, 2023 by Domoboy23

[Domoboy23]

I understand the example above will be subjective, as are most manager hires IRL. However, I'd suggest something like this for future FM's would be a potentially better options for realistic job offers/reputation than the current system.

Coaching Badges - Only effects the managers training attributes and has zero impact/improvement to reputation score. (Which currently seems to have an incredibly exaggerated effect on reputation score)

Reputation Score - Is formed and increases/decreases via manager performance, awards, promotions, sackings etc and is the only initial factor to generate potential invites to interview. Still using the current home, world and current values.

Additional Step - After passing reputation score for job role, additional pre-screening check of players history in examples where a club is rooted to the bottom of the table in January and expecting to fight relegation. This could check the players most recent similar situations and how they did/if they exceeded reputations. Could help to add a dynamic of Neil Warnock/Sam Allardyce type managerial appointments. Not to be used as a definitive, but a potential additional screening tool which may decrease/increase chances slightly of interview invite.

Manager Tendencies - Such as managing finances, domestic player bias etc form part of the interview process in terms of corelation to board culture/expectations.

 

AOB - you should also be able to see chairman stats for example, business, interference, patience before taking a job. Let us feel a connection.

- Currently when you delay a job offer you then can't see details of the contract offer, culture or expectations until it comes up again. Which means if you have multiple job offers on the table across a period of 1/2 weeks and you're trying to make an informed decision... Your only option is to print screen each one at the point of offer then put into a word document etc...

Edited February 28, 2023 by Domoboy23

[Maviarab]

3 hours ago, Domoboy23 said:

It seemed incredibly easy for example, to be managing an Conference side and underperform and be sacked and then in the media be asked about the Arsenal job etc. I believe this is still the case now. It's annoying, but not a gamebreaker as I can just ignore this. However, you would then quite easily find a job in the Conference again
 

Umm..do you actually watch/follow any real football? Hahaha.  I find it incredulous that you can repeatedly find a job even though your entire career, you've been ****!  Only in sports would it and does it happen.  Sacked from here, sacked from there, sacked from every ****ing where, yet for some reason, football directors continually think, hey, Jim Wugabung Smith has been sacked 5 times in 8 years....I bet he'd be a great fit for us.....Like...really?  Are all football owners smoking the dope????  This would not happen in ANY other industry (except maybe retail CEO's lol).  It beggers belief and blows my mind that utterly crap managers just keep getting job...after job...after job...regardless of the league.

As for other comments, will say it (again...and again...and again....), why would anyone start with no experience?  Not realistic, NO football club would EVER give you a job in real life (probably not even your local pub team either these days) without at least your level 1, and when you can get your first two badges for the insanly expensive cost (/s) of £470 and the level 1 is purely online and takes a matter of hours....

 

3 hours ago, Domoboy23 said:

Some simulations found that my manager with no badges and no experience, who was unemployed following poor performance would be offered Conference jobs.
However, my manager with a Continental C and no experience, who was unemployed following poor performance would be offered Conference, L2, L1 and even the odd Championship job.

This of course isn't realistic as clubs go more based on history and reputation within the game rather than badges alone.

Completely incorrect.  How do you think Mourino got the Benfica job originally?  Ultimately (and this is an issue with the whole world), quals matter over experience.  The world has changed.  I think it sucks, a bit of paper is menaningless imo and I think uni/college is a huge waste of money and time, however the modern world disagrees with me (I'm old so..yeah).  Within football though, having a continental A is far more important (and tells a hell of a lot more about whether you actually know what you're doing) then 5 years managing Worksop under 18's.  As for being 'unemployed after poor performances'....refer you back to my fiirst paragraph again lol.  It happens, daily, weekly, monthly, yearly and has for a long time, so your unemployed manager (whi seems utterly crap) getting offered L1 jobs etc, is actually perfectly realistic isn't it as we have already proved, having the licence but being repeatedly sacked, is not a barrier to getting another decent job.

As for in game, do you only have down to the conf loaded...standard database?  If so, then of course they will be offered those jobs, it's a game and someone has to offer you a job in order for you to play said game.  The very fact that starting unemployed Man Utd will never offer you a job (regardless of your badge level) seems to me it's all working as it should.  Ultimately, getting a conf job immediately is in itself not realistic is it?  At all.  However, it is still a game, and while SI say they strive for realism, they don't really, only in certaina reas as ultimately, if the 'game' was realistic, no one would buy it as all the fun things you can do, you just can't in real life.

(Edit: As an aside to all that, I do wish there was an option at the start to be 'trained by'...and by that I mean the Mourinho example.  Start the game with no 'management' experience but your top badge, however adding in the 'trained/tutored/mentored by' (insert random managers of SI's choice here) would then lend credence to the no management experience, would make instantly taking over a top job much more realistic then and while some players may still not respect you, it would be lessened). Another perfect real life example of this would be Arteta at Arsenal...no experience at all, top coaching badge...however, mentored by Pep...

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Maviarab

[Domoboy23]

43 minutes ago, Maviarab said:

Umm..do you actually watch/follow any real football? Hahaha.  I find it incredulous that you can repeatedly find a job even though your entire career, you've been ****!  Only in sports would it and does it happen.  Sacked from here, sacked from there, sacked from every ****ing where, yet for some reason, football directors continually think, hey, Jim Wugabung Smith has been sacked 5 times in 8 years....I bet he'd be a great fit for us.....Like...really?  Are all football owners smoking the dope????  This would not happen in ANY other industry (except maybe retail CEO's lol).  It beggers belief and blows my mind that utterly crap managers just keep getting job...after job...after job...regardless of the league.

As for other comments, will say it (again...and again...and again....), why would anyone start with no experience?  Not realistic, NO football club would EVER give you a job in real life (probably not even your local pub team either these days) without at least your level 1, and when you can get your first two badges for the insanly expensive cost (/s) of £470 and the level 1 is purely online and takes a matter of hours....

 

Completely incorrect.  How do you think Mourino got the Benfica job originally?  Ultimately (and this is an issue with the whole world), quals matter over experience.  The world has changed.  I think it sucks, a bit of paper is menaningless imo and I think uni/college is a huge waste of money and time, however the modern world disagrees with me (I'm old so..yeah).  Within football though, having a continental A is far more important (and tells a hell of a lot more about whether you actually know what you're doing) then 5 years managing Worksop under 18's.  As for being 'unemployed after poor performances'....refer you back to my fiirst paragraph again lol.  It happens, daily, weekly, monthly, yearly and has for a long time, so your unemployed manager (whi seems utterly crap) getting offered L1 jobs etc, is actually perfectly realistic isn't it as we have already proved, having the licence but being repeatedly sacked, is not a barrier to getting another decent job.

As for in game, do you only have down to the conf loaded...standard database?  If so, then of course they will be offered those jobs, it's a game and someone has to offer you a job in order for you to play said game.  The very fact that starting unemployed Man Utd will never offer you a job (regardless of your badge level) seems to me it's all working as it should.  Ultimately, getting a conf job immediately is in itself not realistic is it?  At all.  However, it is still a game, and while SI say they strive for realism, they don't really, only in certaina reas as ultimately, if the 'game' was realistic, no one would buy it as all the fun things you can do, you just can't in real life.

(Edit: As an aside to all that, I do wish there was an option at the start to be 'trained by'...and by that I mean the Mourinho example.  Start the game with no 'management' experience but your top badge, however adding in the 'trained/tutored/mentored by' (insert random managers of SI's choice here) would then lend credence to the no management experience, would make instantly taking over a top job much more realistic then and while some players may still not respect you, it would be lessened). Another perfect real life example of this would be Arteta at Arsenal...no experience at all, top coaching badge...however, mentored by Pep...

 

I can see and agree with certain points, but in terms of managers getting repeatedly good jobs despite being unsuccessful again and again I would say only happens IRL once you hit a certain level for a period of time. Lampard as one example has had a few bites now but even IRL I reckon he won't see the premiership again until proving himself in the Champ.

And even then, not everyone is immune from slipping down the ladder such as Phil Brown, Lee Clark, Paul Hart, Lawrie Sanchez, Dave Jones, Micky Adams, Steve Evans after repeated failings at consecutively lower levels.

I don't think you'd see the Woking manager in the Conference being sacked for being in the relegation zone then offered the job at Bradford in the playoffs in League 2 or Barnsley in the relegation zone of League 1 yet it happens.

This is even with much lower level leagues running than the one initially managing in are available to manage in, so it's not a case of the game always needing to have a job available for you and matching you. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Domoboy23

[Maviarab]

On a very similar and kind of related vein, looking at your avatar, I also find it hilarious that people like Warnock still get jobs, Redknapp.  Like surely, there has to be a younger option...no?  Never really taken much notice in FM if people of their ages still keep grabbing jobs.  Football managers eh, like watching TV, same faces everywhere over and again.  Let the younger and inexperienced have a chance eh?

Edited February 28, 2023 by Maviarab