4-3-3 Improvements

[Champions67]

I am currently managing Werder Bremen 4 seasons in and although I have been relatively successful so far, I am looking for the experts on here to analyse my 4-3-3 tactic and point out areas I can improve and perhaps highlight some instructions that may clash with one another. Also any potential player role changes worth highlighting to suit the tactic would be appreciated.

I achieved promotion in my first season finishing 2nd in Bundesliga 2 before finishing 6th in my first season in the Bundesliga. Last season I achieved 3rd spot and earned a Champions League spot however in my forth season although I am still in a healthy enough position I have noticed my teams performance levels and results have started to take a dip recently and looking to adjust the system slightly to change my fortunes

The majority of teams in the Bundesliga are of similar standard however against the likes of Bayern and Dortmund, any feedback on any potential tweaks to this tactic against these higher standard teams would also be welcomed.

[sonnevillejr]

All your attackers are on attack duties so you should look for more balance. For exemple you could change your AMR into a Wsu. Regarding the DLPde, I personally wouldn't use it in a tactic other than a possession-friendly one, because this playmaker slows down the play and doesn't attempt risky passes. 

I would also reduce the number of TIs, especially out of possession, by removing "tighter marking" and "get stuck in".

 Finally, "Work ball into box" and "underlap right" seem not to fit a tactic like yours because these instrutions slow down the play.

 

[Tsuru]

Your tactic looks to mix up aspects from more possession oriented football (Play Out, Work Ball, a DLP-D, the use of an Inverted Winger as a second striker) with aspects from a more quick and fast approach (Higher Tempo, Counter, a Ball Winning Midfielder and a Winger on Attack), creating kind of a hybrid style. It would may be described as something like "press high and quick and when you gain possession, move the ball fast but without direct/long passing". Is that your intent?

Why I am asking you this? Because if we know what you want to achieve, it is easier to say where you can improve, that is, which roles may fit your system better, or what team instructions could be tested to be removed (or added). Everybody in Football Manager wants to win, the trick is knowing what strategy we are using for it and if it is working well 

In general I don´t see any big glaring issues on the roles and duties, but I think when your intent is clear it would be easier to give you some suggestions and ideas.

[Champions67]

6 hours ago, Tsuru said:

Your tactic looks to mix up aspects from more possession oriented football (Play Out, Work Ball, a DLP-D, the use of an Inverted Winger as a second striker) with aspects from a more quick and fast approach (Higher Tempo, Counter, a Ball Winning Midfielder and a Winger on Attack), creating kind of a hybrid style. It would may be described as something like "press high and quick and when you gain possession, move the ball fast but without direct/long passing". Is that your intent?

Why I am asking you this? Because if we know what you want to achieve, it is easier to say where you can improve, that is, which roles may fit your system better, or what team instructions could be tested to be removed (or added). Everybody in Football Manager wants to win, the trick is knowing what strategy we are using for it and if it is working well 

In general I don´t see any big glaring issues on the roles and duties, but I think when your intent is clear it would be easier to give you some suggestions and ideas.

@Tsuru my intent is to play football from the back and get it forward as soon as possible without playing long/direct passes if possible. I don't necessarily want to get the ball to the front 3 and shoot on site but instead play quick possession football in the oppositions half until an opportunity to play a player through on goal occurs if that makes sense? I have selected the particular roles of each player so that I have a good number of options in attack in all areas so I am not relying on one particular area of the team to create/convert chances. I am still wary of opposition counter attacks and have tried to make a balance with players in defensive roles ready to try and prevent any danger.

When out of possession I want to instantly press the opposition aggressively to retain the ball back and if we have a numerical advantage going forward then would like to counter attack with the pace I have in the forward positions. If the opposition have majority of players back and the counter attack is not on however then would prefer my team to keep possession further up the park again waiting for the right opportunity.

I am not 100% sure my teams instructions are correctly set up to try and apply this style of football I want to play and also concerned some of my instructions perhaps conflict with each other as @sonnevillejr has mentioned previously as well? 

@sonnevillejr I am interested to know the reasoning why you would not apply the 'tight marking' and 'get stuck in' instructions? Do you believe there is a conflict in this scenario?

Thanks guys for the feedback so far, its much appreciated and any further input is welcome.

[sonnevillejr]

il y a 13 minutes, Champions67 a dit :

@Tsuru my intent is to play football from the back and get it forward as soon as possible without playing long/direct passes if possible. I don't necessarily want to get the ball to the front 3 and shoot on site but instead play quick possession football in the oppositions half until an opportunity to play a player through on goal occurs if that makes sense? I have selected the particular roles of each player so that I have a good number of options in attack in all areas so I am not relying on one particular area of the team to create/convert chances. I am still wary of opposition counter attacks and have tried to make a balance with players in defensive roles ready to try and prevent any danger.

When out of possession I want to instantly press the opposition aggressively to retain the ball back and if we have a numerical advantage going forward then would like to counter attack with the pace I have in the forward positions. If the opposition have majority of players back and the counter attack is not on however then would prefer my team to keep possession further up the park again waiting for the right opportunity.

I am not 100% sure my teams instructions are correctly set up to try and apply this style of football I want to play and also concerned some of my instructions perhaps conflict with each other as @sonnevillejr has mentioned previously as well? 

@sonnevillejr I am interested to know the reasoning why you would not apply the 'tight marking' and 'get stuck in' instructions? Do you believe there is a conflict in this scenario?

Thanks guys for the feedback so far, its much appreciated and any further input is welcome.

I think the "Positive" mentality could help to achieve what you want (if you have good players).

Regarding the team instructions :

- Work ball into box tend to reduce the tempo and prevent crosses, so it doesn't fit your winger with his "cross more often" PI.

- Underlap right : this TI instructs your wide player to wait for an inside run, again it can reduce the tempo.

You might consider "shorter passing" with "higher tempo" to play quick short passes, or if you play under the Positive mentality : standard tempo and standard passing (because passing is shorter and tempo is higher with the Positive mentality)

For the OOP intructions, I personally use "get stuck in" instruction in a low block when I want to play counter-attacking football. But with your higher pressing it is not necessary and is riskier. "Tight marking" is not really suited to a high DL, because your players will leave more space behind them by being closer to their opponent. In your case, I would just use "Higher DL", "more often pressing" and "prevent short GK distribution" (considering your players can press effectively).

 

[Tsuru]

16 horas atrás, Champions67 disse:

@Tsuru my intent is to play football from the back and get it forward as soon as possible without playing long/direct passes if possible. I don't necessarily want to get the ball to the front 3 and shoot on site but instead play quick possession football in the oppositions half until an opportunity to play a player through on goal occurs if that makes sense? I have selected the particular roles of each player so that I have a good number of options in attack in all areas so I am not relying on one particular area of the team to create/convert chances. I am still wary of opposition counter attacks and have tried to make a balance with players in defensive roles ready to try and prevent any danger.

When out of possession I want to instantly press the opposition aggressively to retain the ball back and if we have a numerical advantage going forward then would like to counter attack with the pace I have in the forward positions. If the opposition have majority of players back and the counter attack is not on however then would prefer my team to keep possession further up the park again waiting for the right opportunity.

So your logic is on a good direction overall, that is, seeing your tactic I could understand what your intent is. I think that is a very important point.

As I said, you are looking for kind of a hybrid style - attack quickly and with shorter passing when necessary, have patience when speed is not useful, press high but not so high that your team is exposed.

I would say that this can be hard to do on FM sometimes - why? Because at the same time you want to counter when there is an opportunity (something more related to the Counter TI), but you would like to have patience when there is no space around (something more related to Work Ball into Box). Although you can use some combinations to create this effect, I am not sure if these same combinations can confuse your players ("should I counter quickly or should I wait for space to appear?"). So my suggestions are always a starting point, you will have to change and tweak until you see that the desired effect is happening - and sometimes it will still not be perfect, although it can be near what you want. 

You said that you did well at first season and that performance dropped recently, so I would avoid changing everything - it may be a matter of adjustment instead of changing everything. I would start with adjustments on your roles and duties and just a minimal optimization on your Tis.

So for roles and duties you can test these ideas, on a very practical and simple way and without me trying to be too theoretical:

• Use the advanced wide midfielders on different duties - one on attack, the other on support, as this can help creating balance and new passing lines.
  • If you change the IW to a Support duty, I would then use the Wingback on Attack or a Fullback on Attack on the left side, covered by your DLP-D and your BWM-Su.
  • If you change the W to a Support duty, maybe a FB-Su on the right is enough. The CM-At is very aggressive and the IWB roam can expose you on that side. But you can test a W-Su, CM-At and IWB-Su as well and see if it works.
     
• Adjust the "third midfielder"/striker pair in order to generate better attacking patterns.
  • If you prefer to keep the PF-At, maybe the CM-At can become an AP-At or RPM-Su. The PF-At is a goalscorer, so he may need players around creating chances for him. If you want to keep the CM-At, maybe you can change the PF-At into a DLF-At. The CM-At is something like a "deeper Shadow Striker", a fast player that moves aggressively into the third half looking for opportunities to enter the box and shoot on goal, so he may benefit from a player that moves deeper and holds the ball for him.

Regarding TIs I would start with minimal adjustments in order not to collapse your system:

• Remove Underlap Right (as it does not look necessary, you already have a third midfielder moving aggressively on that part of the field);
• Remove Counter-Press (risky instruction, I would not use it always);
• Remove Tigher Marking and Get Stuck In, remove Prevent Short GKD (not necessary), move the defensive line one notch up).

Play some games, test some ideas and see how team works like that. Then you can start tweaking based on what you are not liking and based on what is working.

Have fun!