weighing (counter)press against fatigue

[Feron]

I think by this time everybody agrees that it is more successful to (counter)press - even when you are the underdog, so as I understand it the developers increased the fatigue levels so that it's not a no-brainer anymore to use counter press or not.

And yes, many of my player's hearts turn red during a match. However, in order to weigh the benefits I'd need to know what exactly are the penalties of getting fatigued.

I mean, I can imagine that attributes take a hit, for example "decisions" should be one of them which probably can be offset a bit by "concentration" (?)  but I'd like to know if there are more penalties - and to what extent?

I think I have noticed that my team concedes more goals towards the end of a match but it would be great to know more about the actual penaties as many things are not easy to see just by looking at the match engine play.

Thanks very much if someone here can share more knowledge.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Feron

[HUNT3R]

5 minutes ago, Feron said:

I think by this time everybody agrees that it is more successful to (counter)press

 

I'm not in that camp. I never use counter pressing, whether as a bottom or top rated team.

 

6 minutes ago, Feron said:

And yes, many of my player's hearts turn red during a match. However, in order to weigh the benefits I'd need to know what exactly are the penalties of getting fatigued.

I mean, I can imagine that attributes take a hit, for example "decisions" should be one of them which probably can be offset a bit by "concentration" (?)  but I'd like to know if there are more penalties - and to what extent?

 

This isn't really something that you'll find much info on, tbh. SI purposely do not give out exact information because they're trying to discourage people min/maxing instead of tackling problems like a real manager would. Even with something like playing a player out of position, we know that Decisions takes a hit, but other Mental attributes too, though it hasn't been revealed exactly which ones. IMO, that's a good thing. 

Stamina is quite important and players now have short and long term condition. If players sprint or press a lot, it's going to take a little while before they catch their breath again to be able to fully press or sprint again. Lower stamina players will drain their condition more, so will need more breathers, which will affect how consistently effective their pressing is.

Low Condition means they're more prone to mistakes (logic tells us that is Concentration, but possibly also Decisions) and there may be other Mental attributes affected as well. It also means they're more prone to picking up an injury.

 

25 minutes ago, Feron said:

I think I have noticed that my team concedes more goals towards the end of a match but it would be great to know more about the actual penaties as many things are not easy to see just by looking at the match engine play.

 

You may be conceding because of tiredness (people not consistently pressing effectively), low condition causing mistakes or through a tactical problem (the other team starting all out attack to get back into the match) or a combination of the 3.

[Feron]

2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

This isn't really something that you'll find much info on, tbh. SI purposely do not give out exact information because they're trying to discourage people min/maxing instead of tackling problems like a real manager would.

while I like that approach, I also have to note that that doesn't really work so well.

Just by watching the match engine play it's impossible to see those things you would see when you actually watched your team play standing next to the field.
Plus, which of us watches the whole matches rather than "extended highlights? I mean, SI could argue that you should - but let's be realistic here...

Also, while the match engine has gotten better, it still doesn't show you all those nuances in player's movements that you would need in order to notice how much of an effect fatigue is having here

Edited April 19, 2022 by Feron

[HUNT3R]

13 minutes ago, Feron said:

Just by watching the match engine play it's impossible to see those things you would see when you actually watched your team play standing next to the field.
Plus, which of us watches the whole matches rather than "extended highlights? I mean, SI could argue that you should - but let's be realistic here...

Also, while the match engine has gotten better, it still doesn't show you all those nuances in player's movements that you would need in order to notice how much of an effect fatigue is having here

Sure and fair enough. I'd like to think that I can spot issues using Extended or Comprehensive (even if it's after the fact) but then I also spent about a year and a half only playing in full match detail which not many want to or can do. 

A good place to start might be to re-watch the passage of play that led to you conceding. See if anything stands out. Check if the pressing was poor (where normally it isn't), see if it's a case of the opponent sending more players forward (or whether it was a counter attack) or in the case of a mistake try to take note who it was and in future, what his Condition was to try and see if there's a pattern. It may be the same player, it could be different players all with very low Condition or someone with a low Stamina attribute. It's the sort of thing that I do when watching a match or re-watching a passage of play.

It might not be possible to immediately identify what it was. It might just be a one-off incident. It might be something you can identify later if you spot a pattern that leads to conceding goals.