How to defeat Atalanta's 3-5-2?

[guttea]

So I'm playing 433 Barca and I can't figure out how to defeat Atalanta's 3-5-2. I met with them in a CL group and fluked out two draws and now I lost to them in a CL QF 4-3. I have three tactics trained, I mostly use 4-1-2-3 DM Wide and 4-1-2-1-2 narrow diamond; I also have a 3-4-1-2 tactic trained to counter 4231. But Atalanta is my kryptonite. In the group games I played the usual 433 DM Wide thinking I will create 2-on-1s on the flanks and smash them but no, one game ended 0-0 and another 1-1, and in both Atalanta had more XG and more possession. So then in the first QF game I switched to the diamond to outnumber them in the midfield; instead we again lost control of possession and went head-to-head in a crazy game that ended 4-3. The problem with them is that they can score every way: one goal was a wingback crossing for a header, another was a long ball over the top that Muriel ran onto and scored, another was one wingback getting into the box and giving an assist to the other wingback flying in from the other side, the fourth one was a short-pass interplay in front of the D getting Muriel one-on-one with Ter Stegen. I tried to do with OIs to press their wingbacks, I tried to mark their midfield,  nothing works. How do I beat them?

Edited August 31, 2021 by guttea

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, guttea said:

So I'm playing 433 Barca and I can't figure out how to defeat Atalanta's 3-5-2. I met with them in a CL group and fluked out two draws and now I lost to them in a CL QF 4-3. I have three tactics trained, I mostly use 4-1-2-3 DM Wide and 4-1-2-1-2 narrow diamond; I also have a 3-4-1-2 tactic trained to counter 4231. But Atalanta is my kryptonite. In the group games I played the usual 433 DM Wide thinking I will create 2-on-1s on the flanks and smash them but no, one game ended 0-0 and another 1-1, and in both Atalanta had more XG and more possession. So then in the first QF game I switched to the diamond to outnumber them in the midfield; instead we again lost control of possession and went head-to-head in a crazy game that ended 4-3. The problem with them is that they can score every way: one goal was a wingback crossing for a header, another was a long ball over the top that Muriel ran onto and scored, another was one wingback getting into the box and giving an assist to the other wingback flying in from the other side, the fourth one was a short-pass interplay in front of the D getting Muriel one-on-one with Ter Stegen. I tried to do with OIs to press their wingbacks, I tried to mark their midfield,  nothing works. How do I beat them?

Can we see the 433 please? 

[guttea]

Here it is (sorry, it's a 41212 diamond I used in the game I lost), OIs are below (basically pressing the wingbacks to stop crosses going in)

 

 

[alerosso]

I wouldn't use counter-press when playing with a very narrow formation. All they need to do is play the ball on either flank and you're done, and that's exactly what they want to do.

I would defend narrower pushing them outside. You give them a bit more space on the flanks but they can't directly score from there and you establish more presence in the centre.

For the same reason, I wouldn't distribute to CBs. They're easily pressed by their 2 strikers. Give the ball to the FBs instead, they should have a bit more time on the ball.

 

Btw, can I ask you why you as Barcelona look to train multiple tactics to adapt to your opponents? You should almost always have the upper hand and it should be your opponent's job trying to adapt to you IMO

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by alerosso

[zabyl]

If i were you; İ would:

-drop dribble less TI for not limiting technical abilities against this defensive team.

-drop slightly lower tempo TI for not limiting decision making.

-drop counter-press TI; because opposition can easily break counter-press with the help of their "WB"s.

-decrease LOE one level; because i know that a direct approach can not be very helpful against a defensive side.

-use a proactive DM like DMd not a HBd to disturb opposition AM.

-change both "WB"s to CWBa; because they are main wide creator in this formation.

-change MEZa to an APs to draw the attention of the opponent from Messi to Pjanic.

-change De Jong to a CMs for not limiting his game.

-change Griezmann's role to DLFs and PFa to AFa for making a good triangle with Messi.

 

These would have been my preferences against Atalanta team if i have used a 4-4-2 diamond.

Edited August 31, 2021 by zabyl

[guttea]

38 minutes ago, zabyl said:

If i were you; İ would:

-drop dribble less TI for not limiting technical abilities against this defensive team.

-drop slightly lower tempo TI for not limiting decision making.

-drop counter-press TI; because opposition can easily break counter-press with the help of their "WB"s.

-decrease LOE one level; because i know that a direct approach can not be very helpful against a defensive side.

-use a proactive DM like DMd not a HBd to disturb opposition AM.

-change both "WB"s to CWBa; because they are main wide creator in this formation.

-change MEZa to an APs to draw the attention of the opponent from Messi to Pjanic.

-change De Jong to a CMs for not limiting his game.

-change Griezmann's role to DLFs and PFa to AFa for making a good triangle with Messi.

 

These would have been my preferences against Atalanta team if i have used a 4-4-2 diamond.

thanks, zabyl, I just beat them 4-1 in the return leg (although the possession stats were still 50-50). I understand all your suggestions except changing HB to DM and CAR to CM, are you saying that generic roles like DM and CM are better than specific ones? For example, shouldn't HB screen the backline and disrupt the opposition AM anyway and only drop into the backline when my team's in possession? For CAR I assumed he'd move to the side and help to cover for WBa if WB gets caught up the field. I guess my mistake was being too cautious, I never use both WB on attack for example.

 

44 minutes ago, alerosso said:

I wouldn't use counter-press when playing with a very narrow formation. All they need to do is play the ball on either flank and you're done, and that's exactly what they want to do.

I would defend narrower pushing them outside. You give them a bit more space on the flanks but they can't directly score from there and you establish more presence in the centre.

For the same reason, I wouldn't distribute to CBs. They're easily pressed by their 2 strikers. Give the ball to the FBs instead, they should have a bit more time on the ball.

 

Btw, can I ask you why you as Barcelona look to train multiple tactics to adapt to your opponents? You should almost always have the upper hand and it should be your opponent's job trying to adapt to you IMO

 

Thanks for the suggestions... regarding why multiple tactics with Barca, mostly because I couldn't settle on a single one, for example I have many wingers in Barca so 433 makes sense but I also wanted to try Messi as AMC and I didn't want to play 4231 with 2 CMs plus I got a top striker in Lautaro because Griezmann is bad at leading the attack but then in a 433 I can't play both  of them and my wingers. This way I'm rotating tactics and everyone gets playing time and is happy. And some tactics work better than others, I won three classicos already by playing the diamond against Madrid's 433.

[zabyl]

17 dakika önce, guttea said:

I understand all your suggestions except changing HB to DM and CAR to CM, are you saying that generic roles like DM and CM are better than specific ones?

Generic roles i mentioned are not better roles but versatile roles.

[guttea]

18 minutes ago, zabyl said:

Generic roles i mentioned are not better roles but versatile roles.

ok but when do you go with generic and when with specific?

[alerosso]

Fair enough, I will just never play something different from a 433 4231 if managing Barça myself. But that's just me.

 

As for generic roles, they're not "better" but they don't confine a player into a specific behavior either.

A generic CM(s) can still act pretty much as a specific role if the player has the right attributes and traits. For example, De Jong will still dictate tempo and everything even without a playmaker tag on him.

[zabyl]

9 dakika önce, guttea said:

ok but when do you go with generic and when with specific?

That depends on football style, player ability and team's needs against the next opponent to my mind.