Tactical Questions regarding a 4-2-4 / 4-2-2-2

[Jimmyrh94]

Trying to make a 4-2-4 tactic. If anyone reading this can actually help me with a few answers i would be very grateful and appreciative.

If i want my "wingers" to be a nasri/nani/ronaldo type player. Where they would more often cut inside and look for a through ball to the strikers and only cross the ball by going wide, if on the counter or if there is no clear through ball option. Which role does this translate to, Winger, Inside Forward or advanced playmaker?

2. Also. For my Centre mid pairing. I have decided this is best on defend and support, as my front 4 are attacking enough. I want to use and advanced playmaker support but should my defensive cm be centre mid (defend) or ball winning midfielder (defend)?

3. I want my fullbacks to attack, but im not a manager who likes to win 5-2 or 6-4. I like to attack with relative security at the back. Would support for my full back be a better option? Without taking anything away from the balance of the tactic?

4. As for my centre backs, as im playing a high line, would i want to keep them on centre defender (defend) and ball playing defender ( defend) or should i make them stopper cover? also what about the offside?

Cheers if you can help me mate. I tried to be as detailed as possible and outline my intentions so it doesnt look like im some annoying noob. Thanks for your time

[Mike_Cardinal]

1. Well, you said it, you want them to Cut Inside and play through balls often and probably Cross the Ball sometimes - I'd say that's an Inside Forward Support. EDIT - Or perhaps some variety of Advanced Playmaker, I can't remember the exact instructions. Inside Forward Attacks will shoot more than they play through balls, however.

2. That's not a question that can really be asked in isolation, you need to play with both and see what works better for the style you want to implement. However, given that you later seem to indicate worries about defensive solidarity, I'd recommend you go for a central midfielder on defensive duty, as this will ensure better protection in front of your defence - a higher level of closing down may see this player pulled out of position too much.

3. Again, try both, it's difficult to say without knowing just how strong your team is, and how good your full backs are at getting back and forwards. Very quick, defensively sound, hard working players with good decisions and excellent stamina will be able to attack like crazy if you're a top team and still defend when it's needed, but a lower quality of player might be more effective being told to be a little more limited. If you're playing with narrow wide men, however, you might like the overlaps created by attacking full backs so much that you forgo the slight defensive downside, however - something which perhaps you might compensate for by having two holding midfielders?

4. My personal preference with a high line is to go defend/defend. A covering defender will sit deep and in effect lower your high line, ruining the effect in my opinion, whereas a stopper gets pulled out of position too much for my liking - I like intelligent players who are given the flexibility to defend a situation as it requires, rather than having one man constantly charging about, leaving giant holes to be exposed in my defence. That said, having a covering defender is nice if you've got more central defenders than the opponent has central forwards. The offside trap is a really risky thing in modern day football, only to be attempted if you've got players of real quality - decisions and teamwork will be big attributes in deciding this sort of thing, as well as the obvious Positioning/Anticipation etc. Based on your conservative nature, I'd recommend that you don't go for it at first, just see how you get on with a high line.

Hope that solves most of your issues.

[Jimmyrh94]

Thanks mate. that has really helped clear a few things up in my mind.

Im playing as man utd with the addition of pastore and modric. I would ideally like one of my cms to attack but i jst felt that seeing as my 2 wingers are in the aml/r slots i wouldnt be risking defensive solidarity if i played in this way. As for the full backs i do want them to attack as i have evra and rafael. But i got batterd in the final of the champions league last year with full backs on support. I couldnt work out whether this was because my full backs were attacking to much or i was being outnumbered in midfield ( last season i had one cm on attack).

Also, as for my strikers am i right in thinking this should be rooney as deep lying forward support and hernandez as poacher attack?

[Mike_Cardinal]

The glory of FM/football/football management is that there is no 'should be' - do what works for you! Evra and Rafael will be more than capable of performing as Full Back Attacks - a bonus is that, given that most teams will be more defensive than on most occasions against a team of your reputation that you can pin them back in their own half and prevent their attacking threat from wide players this way. Tell the full backs to get forward so high up the pitch that their wide men are nullified as an attacking threat, because unless it's Theo Walcott or someone, they aren't going to beat you in any race to get back and cover on a counter attack, and besides, the men you have back should be good enough at winning the ball to stop the counter dead against their consequently limited numbers. Hernandez probably is a Poacher though, but Rooney can play any number of roles, Deep Lying Forward is just one that sounds good. I imagine that your defeat may well have been due to being outnumbered in the middle, but without seeing the game I couldn't say for sure. If you're playing Pastore as a central midfielder, then by all means don't waste him - put him as an advanced playmaker support. You might consider playing him or Rooney as an Attacking Midfielder in a 4-2-3-1 if you were looking for a more defensively sound formation to prevent being outnumbered in midfield as much though, or perhaps you could retrain him to become a brilliant supporting Inside Forward, which I suppose you might have done already? Modric would be wonderful in that role, too.

[Burford]

tbh i think your team is a bit too attacking pastore is wasted as a deep lying playmaker he has dribbling first touch technique and flair all 18 or over he needs to be running with the ball so althogh going against your tactical plan you should have him in cam posistion on advanced playmaker attack but that leaves you short at back maybe you should think about 442 diamond with an anchor man in dmc

[Jimmyrh94]

@Burford does this mean a 4-2-2-2 cannot be played on fm?

[Jimmyrh94]

@Mike Thanks mate, i have been thinking about playing a 4-2-3-1 or the 4-3-3 that man utd played back in 08 when we won the champions league. You know that rooney ronaldo tevez team

If i do play this 4-2-4 would something like this be better then.

Full backs (Automtic) cb's (Defend)

Advanced playmaker (support) and Centre Midfielder (Defend)

Inside forwards (Attack)

Deeplying forward (Support) Poacher (Attack)

In terms of team instructions would it be okay if i set more direct and left the rest as it is. I have found that having fluid and attacking set, the team press enough and creative freedom is distributed rightly

Tbh i have noticed many people playing a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 and having better success. Even in real life fergie flirts with a 4-3-3 /4-2-3-1 although he sets down a 4-4-2. I'm really interested in that 08 man u team and feel that would produce good defensive support and allow a creative front free like rooney, ronaldo and tevez were.

[furiousuk]

In response to your OP:

If you want creative wingers in the AML/R slot then I'd go for Advanced Playmaker (probably support but you'd have to balance this will the other roles in your team). Advanced Playmakers are given their heads with fairly neutral instructions but a slight preference for through balls (and negating a preference for crossing). Inside forwards are pretty similar but they'll be more direct which I don't think is what you're after. This option, I think, would probably waste Modric & Pastore who probably work better more central.

If you played them in the AMCl & AMCr slot then an attacking midfielder-support role looks good, again, with the preference for through balls.

You'd then need to balance your midfielders. Deep lying playmaker or Central Midfielder-defend should keep them a little deeper and allow the front four to do an attacking job. (With the DLP you'll find that all 4 players in your midfield will be looking for through balls more often than anything else so don't expect to hold on to the ball for too long - you've got to score quickly and create a lot of movement).

With so many through balls being hit you've got to have an all action front two which Rooney & Hernandez should fit the bill perfectly.

Full back - support or attack should do it. I'd use Full Back as Wing Backs like to hit through balls and you don't need any more. If they are Full-Back support then think of them as outlets to maintain possession, if they have decent decisions they'll get forward and overlap anyway when they decide its best.

I haven't thoroughly looked through the mentalities for this system but balanced or fluid should fit the bill, however, the rigid symmetry in the side and segmenting of each strata (Defence, Midfield, Advanced Midfield, Attackers) might create a rather one-dimension and predicable side.

The squad you have is perfect for a 4231. I've generally only seen this with fairly direct wingers (I use inside forward attack when I use this formation) but, if you had 2 very attacking central players (ie Rooney & Hernandez/Berbatov) then I don't see why advanced playmakers can't work on the wing in this formation.

Just be sure you balance your through balls and run with ball instructions. You need creators and finishers (i.e. players with good vision AND players with good movement), these can inter-change during the course of a game (without changing tactics) but it's complicated to set up and would require testing and tweaking (formulating). It's incredibly powerful when got right but remember that it relies heavily on the correct players.

[PnyX]

I have had great success over the last three years with my 442/4222. Basically, I have one of my CMs in a DM positions and my wingers are set up as inside forward with the only change being their wide play is set to normal instead of cutting inside (I found this gives them more options). One of my strikers plays as a false nine and drops really deep and is set up as my playmaker.

[Jimmyrh94]

Thanks everyone.

So far the tactic i have made is actually working really well, ive won 6 or 7 games quite convincingly and drawn one, which i came back from 3-0 down and probably would have won in the end. All this and my fluidity levels are no where near complete, yet im still banging in goals.

1. My midfield partnership is currently deeplying playmaker defend (Carrick) and Box to box midfielder support (Fletcher). It is working well at the moment and i am winning games to technically i shouldnt be complaining. However i feel my box to box player is getting lost or atleast not contributing much to the play. Would it be better to change the settings to carrick- centre mid (defend) and maybe Anderson- (Deep lying playmaker support). That way i know one player is defending entirely and the other is sitting back but still distributing the ball?

2. Someone mentioned ( i think it was furiosuk) that its all well and good having creators but i need finishers aswell. I am keen on my wingers being advanced playmakers and i also dont want to change one of my mc's to attack duty. So the only player left would be rooney, who i currently have as a deep lying forward (support). In order to add another finisher to the tactic i am thinking of changing rooney to deep lying forward ( attack). However will i loose the staggered striker effect which support would create? Also i would loose rooney coming back to help the midfield, which i quite liked as he does this in real life?

3.In terms of the full backs, i have noticed that even with attack duty, evra and rafael have very rarely been caught out. They do track back and make tackles, even when i played arsenal, who have fast players, i nullified their wing threat and won 4-2. so thanks to whoever gave me that tip about the full backs

cheers for your time, if you could answer these last few questions

[furiousuk]

2. Try Rooney as a Complete Forward - Support (or maybe Attack). Even with an attack role you might get away with a semi-staggered effect as I believe one of Rooney's PPMs is 'Comes Deep to Collect The Ball', if it is then it'll likely alter his Run From Deep and possibly Mentality so that he'll always line up slightly deeper than a convention attacking striker.

I'm not sure what the exact instructions are for a Complete Forward but when combined with Rooney's awesome mental stats you should see that he is free to choose the best position and role for himself, completely dependent upon the unfolding pitch situation. If your playmakers have got some smarts (as I suspect they have) then sometimes Rooney will finish what they create whereas at other times he should create something for them. With Rooney's immense teamwork and work rate (as well as other mental stats) he could play as an out-and-out poacher and still create chances for other players.

[Jimmyrh94]

Thanks im going to give that a try

What do you think of the midfield situation. The box to box mid? is he effective? what would you suggest for the cm pairing. I know that im going to have them defend( Carrick) and support (Anderson or Fletcher)

[furiousuk]

1. I like the sound of your second suggestion using carrick & anderson. Get them both sitting back there spraying balls around and have Carrick as a 'sort-of' defensive unit as well. I say 'sort-of' because I believe he lacks pace, I expect he can make up for this somewhat with decent anticipation and positioning though.

If you need more a presence in midfield then bring Fletcher on and have him as a central midfielder (support or defend) and Carrick as DLP (defend). I suspect that will work when you need a bit more energy and physicality.

[Jimmyrh94]

Right so i have now moved rooney to a complete forward (attack) and this is working well. You were right about him still coming back to help the defence and the staggered effect which would allow through balls to be played into my main poacher hernandez as the complete forward (attack) has through balls- often setting.

Now what seems to be the last issue is using one of the cm's to move into the space that rooney would have been in if he was in support. This was the cm would act as a defensive buffer higher up the pitch as well as a link man in attack or a finisher if rooney drifts wide so i have poacher and cm waiting to finish off any balls in.

1.I think central midfielder support(Fletcher/Anderson) would sort this out as the mentality is 17 which means in attack he would linger where rooney would have been on support.

What about having a ball winning midfielder(support) here or advance playmaker(support) ? what would be the difference as they both have a 17 mentality which is what im looking for the role?

2. As for the other cm(carrick). I am undecided as to whether he should be a deep lying playmaker defend or centre mid (defend)

im thinking

centre mid (support) deep lying playmaker (defend)

or

advanced playmaker (support) centre mid (defend)

[furiousuk]

Journalist: So Arnold, how long would it take you to put an inch on your biceps.

Schwarzenegger: Not too long, probably less than a month

Journalist: Why don't you do that then to be an even greater Mr Olympia?

Schwarzenegger: Because it would take me a few years to put an inch on everywhere

else to keep in proportion.

Nothing ever works in isolation!!

It's a carousel for sure and one that keeps me coming back to my tactics with every new season and every new signing and every new match!

If you've got the mentality you're after then just continue to think carefully about the role. Are you starting with a control strategy? 17 sounds mighty high for a support role and I haven't got FM fired up to have a tinker. If you want him to occupy the space then Run From Deep should probably be set to often to get him coming forward and good decision making should make him see the space and move into when your team is in possession. I'm don't think a ball winner sounds right as I'm guessing they have lower creative freedom and passing range and you'll probably want this guy to hit passes to Rooney (who will be more advanced at this stage) and to your poacher.

I'm not sure what the difference between Central Mid and Adv. PM are, I suspect the latter will have slightly higher creative freedom and slightly longer passing (or the same) and less shots. The higher CF and passing sounds good but you'll want to make sure run from deep is selected to encourage him forward. The PPMs 'Gets Forward' or 'Arrives Late in Box' should also help for this role (I don't know if either of your guys has this). Getting a midfielder forward will make you more attacking, but, of course, you might suffer defensively so you'll have to judge it on match situation.

I like Deep-Lying Playmaker - def (or maybe support) for Carrick, he might get slightly isolated defensively but there aren't many teams that will get the best of your defenders anyway and he's not completely useless at defending. Don't be afraid of playing an advanced playmaker and a deep-lying playmaker in the same side, you can always select one (or neither) of them from the team instructions screen.

Sounds like you're thinking about the whole picture anyway so I'm glad if I've helped but suspect you would of got there anyway.

Just out of curiosity what are your team instructions like?

[Jimmyrh94]

Actually mate im going to go against your advice. I feel the dlf has to be on support as i did start getting outnumbered in the middle. Taking influence from the united game against shaktar i remeber we had a cm sitting back and a cm playing higher than the striker. Which is how anderson got those 2 goals at the end of the game. He was playing ahead of the striker. If rooney comes back, my cm can push up slightly ahead of him which would mean i was effectively playing a 4-1-3-1-1.

Now just the cm pairing problem....

[furiousuk]

Yeah, sounds good. Different people see things differently so you have to go with your gut and with what you can see working. Have a go with things, if they work then find out why and if they don't work then find out why. Rinse, and repeat.

Remember also that what works at one time won't necessarily work at another and what doesn't work at one time might very well work the next (hope that makes sense!)

[Jimmyrh94]

Yes it does! Cheers for all your help. Im pretty much 90% of the way there (Y)