Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

[crouchaldinho]

why have different roles then in the first place? you are awere of the 'difference' between Central Defender Cover/Defend/Stopper? or Central Midfielder Support and Deep Playmaker Support..

You've lost me Mitja. :confused:

You are requesting a new role in the wide midfielder MR/ML position. So I am just asking you, what is this role you are talking about? It seems to me that you are talking about a 'wide midfielder' who cuts inside on to his stronger foot. This can be achieved already in the tactics creator.

I'm also making the point that most of the players you are bringing up as examples are really AMR/AML players who play as 'inside forwards' in FM speak.

Regards,

C.

[crouchaldinho]

no I deliberatly put such players who's teams play basic 442. there are a couple excpetions though...

Most of them are exceptions as far as I can see.

Name some players who specifically play MR and ML in a 4-4-2 and always cut inside (e.g. play on the flank opposite to their foot and come inside). That might help me to understand.

Thanks,

C.

[Mitja]

You've lost me Mitja. :confused:

You are requesting a new role in the wide midfielder MR/ML position. So I am just asking you, what is this role you are talking about? It seems to me that you are talking about a 'wide midfielder' who cuts inside on to his stronger foot. This can be achieved already in the tactics creator.

I'm also making the point that most of the players you are bringing up as examples are really AMR/AML players who play as 'inside forwards' in FM speak.

Regards,

C.

no in FM speak they are ML/R, official FM database confirms that too (T'ham, Atletico, Villareal, Bayern last year play 442 edit: most of the time).

[crouchaldinho]

Let's take one player at random. I'm going to choose Ribery, which is your first example in the opening post.

He is a right-footed player. On FM he is a natural at AML.

In his last five games he has played in the following formations: 4-2-3-1, 3-4-3, 4-3-3. He is on the left wing playing AML in every example.

My source: http://www.football-lineups.com/footballer/99_Franck_Ribery/

C.

[Mitja]

why have different roles then in the first place? you are awere of the 'difference' between Central Defender Cover/Defend/Stopper? or Central Midfielder Support and Deep Playmaker Support..

answer me this question please.

you think that 2 notches of closing down are suficiant to make a Role? compare a Winger to Inside Forward or Advanced Playmeker, how many different instructions are there?

[crouchaldinho]

no in FM speak they are ML/R, official FM database confirms that too (T'ham, Atletico, Villareal, Bayern last year play 442 edit: most of the time).

Can you tell me a definite example of someone in a 4-4-2.

I'm not trying to catch you out or anything. I'm sure there will be an example.

My point is that they will be playing on their 'wrong' foot in a wide midfield position. This is the same role as the 'wide midfield' role on FM.

C.

[crouchaldinho]

answer me this question please.

you think that 2 notches of closing down are suficiant to make a Role? compare a Winger to Inside Forward or Advanced Playmeker, how many different instructions are there?

Yes, there are lots of changes to instructions between those three roles. I don't understand the point that you are trying to make here?

C.

[Mitja]

Let's take one player at random. I'm going to choose Ribery, which is your first example in the opening post.

He is a right-footed player. On FM he is a natural at AML.

In his last five games he has played in the following formations: 4-2-3-1, 3-4-3, 4-3-3. He is on the left wing playing AML in every example.

My source: http://www.football-lineups.com/footballer/99_Franck_Ribery/

C.

he never played in 442 in his life? read a couple of posts up, you'll see I wrote, Bayern last year. I don't need to check web sites to tell you what formation Bayern played against Juve (Gomes and Olić up front), but Ribery wasn't playing...

you seem like smart person crouchy but what I can't understand is your constant defending of the game so blindly.

[Mitja]

what does that site tell about Kranjcar against Blackburn, which position he played there?

[crouchaldinho]

he never played in 442 in his life? read a couple of posts up, you'll see I wrote, Bayern last year. I don't need to check web sites to tell you what formation Bayern played against Juve (Gomes and Olić up front), but Ribery wasn't playing...

I didn't say that he has never played 4-4-2 and I'm using the website because I don't follow Bayern as closely as you obviously do, so I'm not as familiar with them.

you seem like smart person crouchy but what I can't understand is your constant defending of the game so blindly.

I'm not defending the game blindly at all and I resent that. I give constructive criticism about the game as you would have seen from my threads last year. I just like to be fair and I thought this was a subject that was up for discussion?

C.

[Mitja]

so what does it tell for Kranjcar, is he a ML or AML?

(what a stupid question imo )

and you still didn't anwert my question

[crouchaldinho]

what does that site tell about Kranjcar against Blackburn, which position he played there?

Yes, and Kranjcar has the PPM 'cuts inside'.

What am I trying to say to you is that this is not really a 'role' in my opinion. Someone who plays MR/ML and who happens to cut inside sometimes is doing so because it is either part of their game (PPMs) or because they are naturally inclined to do so (because their favoured foot takes them inside). It is not a 'role' in the same way as an 'inside forward' role is. That would be my opinion about it.

Furthermore, I would argue that 90% of your player examples above are actually wingers anyway (AMR/AML). Most of them are playing 'inside forward' roles. Most of them are playing in 4-3-3s or 4-2-3-1s. Most of them have 'cuts inside' in FM as well.

So it seems that there is little problem to discuss here. Just my opinion of course.

C.

[crouchaldinho]

so what does it tell for Kranjcar, is he a ML or AML?

Natural AMC on FM.

and you still didn't anwert my question

Which one?

C.

[Mitja]

Yes, there are lots of changes to instructions between those three roles. I don't understand the point that you are trying to make here?

C.

you think 2 notches of closing down difference is enough to be a whole new Role/Duty but let's say Incoming Wingers don't deserve a new Role, they will naturally play in such maner because of their footedness?

[crouchaldinho]

you think 2 notches of closing down difference is enough to be a whole new Role/Duty but let's say Incoming Wingers don't deserve a new Role, they will naturally play in such maner because of their footedness?

Where are you getting this '2 notches of closing down' being a new role/duty from? I don't understand? :confused:

C.

[Mitja]

the only difference between Centre Back Stopper/Defend/Cover are 2 notches of closing down. you should know that

[Mitja]

english is obviously not my native tongue. sorry.

[crouchaldinho]

I'm not sure if I can make my argument any clearer but I will try and condense my points into bullet points.

- Most of the players you are talking about are AMRs and AMLs playing 'inside forward' in a 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 in my opinion. This is basically a well known 'role' in modern football, as you know, and is used in formations utilising attacking wingers and forwards, especially those systems named in the previous sentence.

- An MR/ML, say in 4-4-2, is a 'wide midfielder'. It's not really a new 'role' to play someone there who likes to cut inside (PPM) or who cuts inside because he is naturally inclined to do so (footedness).

- If you choose to play Kranjcar, for instance, in a 4-4-2 with a 'wide midfielder' role, you will achieve exactly what you want. He will cut inside both due to his PPM and his footedness. So you can achieve exactly what you want in the game and you don't need to make a new role for it.

Does that help to explain my opinion?

Regards,

C.

[crouchaldinho]

the only difference between Centre Back Stopper/Defend/Cover are 2 notches of closing down. you should know that

But that is a duty and not a role.

What we are talking about is a role.

C.

[crouchaldinho]

english is obviously not my native tongue. sorry.

Don't worry about it. Your English is very good and it is much better than my Croatian!

[Mitja]

- no, most of those players I choosed because I'm ceratin that they played in 442 at one point in their carrer, except Messi but even he probably did. also your argument that there's really big difference between MLR/AMLR is falsed, it 'only' depends on formation (442-433) the team is using. most of these players are equally able to play in both types of formations.

- that's exactly why there should be such Role.

- I know that but thank you anyway, it might help others.

[Mitja]

But that is a duty and not a role.

What we are talking about is a role.

C.

really strong argument, I'm impressed

sorry

[Mitja]

What am I trying to say to you is that this is not really a 'role' in my opinion. Someone who plays MR/ML and who happens to cut inside sometimes is doing so because it is either part of their game (PPMs) or because they are naturally inclined to do so (because their favoured foot takes them inside). It is not a 'role' in the same way as an 'inside forward' role is. That would be my opinion about it.

what's the point of having roles then? everyone has something that is a part of his game..

if there's Inside Forwrd role in 433 etc then surely there should be similar role for same players in 442 etc. players won't and can't change their play in slighly more defensive formation 451, or more attacking one 433.

[crouchaldinho]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I haven't voted on your poll by the way as neither of the answers were applicable for me.

I have seen a left-footer playing on the right wing in a 4-4-2 for my club actually last year. He did cut inside and his play was naturally different to that of a winger so I do understand your point. I just don't think that a new role is necessary. In my opinion, using the 'wide midfielder' option is fine in this case and it makes sense to me. That's what he is in my view.

This season my club are playing 4-3-3 or 4-1-4-1 with attacking wingers quite often. In this case, we have a right-footed player on the left. He is playing 'inside forward'. I see this as a separate role to the 'winger' role. Whereas I don't see the same difference between 'wide midfielder' and what you are describing. Hopefully you see what I mean.

Anyway, as I say, I think it is time to agree to disagree. Perhaps someone who is involved with the tactics creator will come in the thread and comment on this for you at some point.

Regards,

C.

[crouchaldinho]

really strong argument, I'm impressed

sorry

[Mitja]

I doubt your last sentance.

no problem, that's why forums are for. I wish other people offered their wiew on this.

no hard feelings

[crouchaldinho]

One final thing actually.

What I would really love to see in the future, and I know a lot of other people would like it too, is the ability to customise the tactics creator settings. Everything from roles to duties, from passing schemes to mentality structures etc., so that you could design some of your own presets to go with the default options. Then you could make up your own roles for certain players, which I think would take the creator to the next level in my humble opinion. And it would certainly help in a case like this, where you feel that you want to do something slightly different, wouldn't it? What do you think?

Regards,

C.

[Mitja]

I think it will happen as it's the only logical thing to do. the only downside is that I can't see how AI could benefit from it, which is very important factor as we need to be on the same level..

[ottey_swe]

This season my club are playing 4-3-3 or 4-1-4-1 with attacking wingers quite often. In this case, we have a right-footed player on the left. He is playing 'inside forward'. I see this as a separate role to the 'winger' role.

Winger: Joe Cole/Malouda

Inside forward: Messi/Benayoun/Ribery/Ronaldo

Have I got it right? I've never understood the difference between the roles 100% actually..

Another thought: Joe Cole in the AMR position. Should he have forward runs & run with ball set to "often", or would that make him more of an "inside forward"? You would definately want him to have them set to "often" if you play him in the MR position so that he attacks, but when he starts in the AMR maybe he's already "where he's supposed to be" and can therefore have his forward runs set to "normal" so he doesn't drift out of position to much? What do you think?

[Mitja]

One final thing actually.

What I would really love to see in the future, and I know a lot of other people would like it too, is the ability to customise the tactics creator settings. Everything from roles to duties, from passing schemes to mentality structures etc., so that you could design some of your own presets to go with the default options. Then you could make up your own roles for certain players, which I think would take the creator to the next level in my humble opinion. And it would certainly help in a case like this, where you feel that you want to do something slightly different, wouldn't it? What do you think?

Regards,

C.

what I'd love is tactics to become linked to training. every tactical tweak manager makes will have fundations in training ground.

tactical aspect of the game would change from tweaking and finding the right tactics for right situation to building tactics and improving team's style and having plans for each match.

also I think we have too much micro control in some areas, which should come down to player ability and his habits, like player dribbling and shooting. on the other side we have far too little control over player movement which is very basic but much important instruction which I believe real managers are in direct control of. that's one of the reason why I think one role is missing for wide midfielders.