The 2-6-2 Framework. An Approach To Creating Tactics In FM08. - PART II -

[Kizo]

@zagallo

yes, this might be the case, and also i did not lower the tempo so i tend to lose the ball in critical moments. also, i lowered fb's mentality but fwr's and rwb's remain the same.

[Guest]

Ok, but the tactics are not using a very high tempo anyway. If you don't have good holding players, using a slow tempo will cost you even more possession... If the FBs still don't work, reduce the fwr and rwb. I like that better than reducing their mentality. But if it works, it works.

[ezamudin]

Ahh.. finally one that advocate the use of team mentality to most of the squad

I used them too, but comparing mine to yours, I used 3 backbone players on individual mentality, the rest on team mentality. My individual players are both CDs and the MCd.

But kudos to a thread well done.. It does have some ideas that I havent thought as well, especially the part on OI.

[Guest ssharp1981]

Originally posted by zagallo:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ssharp1981:

I have just started using these tactics with a new Arsenal game and they are working quite well.

I have a couple of questions though.

1 - How do you tighten the defence, i have currently conceded 26 goals in 22 games

2 - How do you decide which tactic to use if you are a top team, as the read me file just tells you which ones to use if you face stronger teams. I am currently guessing which ones to use.

Otherwise keep up the good work.

Cheers

This thing was heavily tested with Arsenal. I conceded 14 goals in the first season. Apart from using tight marking for the DCs there should not be much more need to tighten that...

Anyway, here again are some measures that could help: rise closing down for FBs, lower DCs mentality 1 notch, put MCd on tight marking or(!) man-marking when playing tough opponent, reduce creative freedom for MCd, give MCd an barrow to DMC position, put DMC on same mentality as DCs (-> 3-5-2 frame), up closing-down for MCa and MCd (watch out for fouls), reduce tempo, reduce width, put team passing more to short side.

The ReadMe tells you which tactic to use. Even as Arsenal you will encounter stronger and weaker teams, just take a look at the match predictions. Basically you should use attacking at home, counter away. Against teams that are closer to you in the league table use control. As is away, with higher team mentality at home. After first half of the season and re-ranking, use more control than counter when away. Good luck. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheers zagallo,

I have only conceded 2 in the last 7 with your suggestion. Also your tactics are amazing when it comes to corners, i have scored 15 goals in 19 Premier League games.

[Kizo]

@zagallo

also good idea, will try that. all this really seems to work. as i manage to acquire better players, i will draw the tactic set more and more similar to yours. congratulations, as i have said before, this tactic finally brings some sense into playing fm 2008 because it really does look like real world fotball tactics. and it seems it can stick around for more than one season. i agree that corners do work as a charm. next step into improving is to upgrade shut up shop bit because with it i tend to concede too many goals in last few minutes, maybe we should implement same ideas into it.

did you try to play with aston villa maybe?

[Asim]

Z

just thought id give some feedback seeing as a lot of people are still struggling defensively.

as you know i used your original tactic in my 1st season with tottenham, came 2nd, won carling cup and uefa cup. scored a lot or goals and didnt conceed too many.

2nd season i struggled, but i stuck with it, i noticed i wasnt killing teams off, and that let them sneek draws and last minute winners, so i just decided half way through it was better not to loose. i eventually finished 5th, but won the FA cup this season and got to the semi-finals of the champions league. i assume this is mainly down to the re-ranking you informed me of, other teams adapted to my style of play.

now inn 3rd season, 2 games left, i am 1st, this season has been amazing and i stuck with the same tactics again, this season they worked.

berbatov is my target man, 47 goals this season, keane has been out for 3 months he had 33 before his injury. downing has 35 assists.

i havent gone overboard with signings either, only brought in richards, lescott and veloso, most of the team is the same, i try to keep it realisitic.

i still conceed silly goals, i find its mostly tap ins after keeper spills, or my defence is to high up and pacey striker has half of pitch to run into and score.

i am close to winning the league, arsenal are close behind. i won the carling cup again, quarter finals of FA cup, into the semi final of uefa cup 2nd leg.

the only tactical changes i made were to my MCd, i put his mentality to the same as defence or maybe 1 notch higher.

the only thing i really struggle with is when the opposition use an AMC. i use OI, tight marking and closing down, but they always score. AMR and AML are fine to cope with, not many teams have had joy against me down the wings.

i just hope the AI doesnt re adjust to my tactic again next season.

i know people are saying that this tactic is based on arsenal and is not as effective on other teams.

my defense is:

Robinson

Richards

Dawson

King

Bale

Midfield:

Lennon

Jenas

Veloso

Downing

Upfront:

Berbatov

Keane

hardly the greatest team, but it works for me. other players i have in squad are:

Lescott

Barnes

Bentley

Carrick

Vaughn

Bent

to those people who are struggling, it may not just be down to the tactic, when the moral is down then the team wont be as effectiv. when i was going through a bad patch, i just tried to play defensive and hard to break down, a few clean sheets and run of3 or 4 unbeaten (all draws) was enough to build on.

its not like i signed world class players to make it work.

[Kizo]

@asim

tactic is effective with other teams but you need tweaking as other teams don't have such a strong defence. tottenham does, so it's pretty logical that you didn't concede as many. scoring is not a problem, the set works fine where even an average striker can get a decent amount of goals, defence is something that you build on. it puzzles me that you have problems with opposition amc because you already set your mcd to defence's mentality. maybe to tick him to man mark and higher closing down?

[Cadijk van Kaarhandel]

Zagallo - firstly, excellent effort putting the threads, tactics, and explanations together. An excellent contribution to the forum, most commendable.

But secondly, and more importantly ;-) I tried this out for my Aberdeen team and I've got to say it bombed! Just didn't get me anywhere at all! Was shipping 5s and 6s, so I've decided to bin it.

Maybe its good for yer Top Sides, but for lesser Top Sides like Aberdeen I just couldn't get it to work for me.

[Guest]

Hi guys. Sorry I didn't answer yet, I was busy. And sorry that this thing somehow doesn't work for all teams. I feel now the risk of uploading tactics got me... They simply won't work for every team and every league in the same way. Just as any other tactic or framework for this game.

As I said in my intial post, the thinking behind it was to transfer ideas from real life into the game. If it works - and for a lot of teams it does - it can make the game more interesting and hopefully more realistic. But it seems to me that this kind of realism falls down, when playing with weaker teams...

As a reminder lets look at the premiership as of today (11.03) with 28 to 29 games played and check the goals conceded:

Derby 57, clean sheets 3. Newcastle 56, clean sheets 4. Reading 55, clean sheets 5. Tottenham 45, clean sheets 7.

On the other side: Arsenal 21, clean sheets 12. Liverpool 20, clean sheets 14. Chelsea 17. ManU 15, both clean sheets 16.

In the game we can buy new and better players, but within the limit of transfer money available. So will this make Derby or Reading win the league? I don't believe it. Will any tactic make those teams reach position 4 or over in the game? I don't believe it. Not Rot, not RoO, not global, not split mentality. Same with this framework. It is based on the technical and mental ability of the squads. Probabaly more than other theories. So you will concede if the squad can't live up to the needs. Just as in real life. So you will concede. The question is, how much.

Arsenal you say is not comparable.

With Arsenal I conceded 10 after 29 games. Half as in real life. No defenders or DMCs bought, just a GK.

Can the GK make that difference?

Asim up here ran up second in the league and only added Richards to the actual def line.

With already 45 goals conceded this season and being on 11, they won't make it in real life.

(And if their defense should be called strong is questionable... Aston Villa btw conceded only 36. )

So can Richards make that difference?

Sorry for being provocative. But assuming that the AI and the match engine must been based on certain parameters taken fom real life stats and experiences, we have to accept that with every update or new version it gets closer to real life. In CM03/04 it was possible to win the champions league with a relegation candidate. That was fun, but not realistic. And it is impossible in FM08. Some complain that the game got too difficult. I think it only got more realistic. So conceding less than in real life is not that bad at all.

To come back to my starting point, the uploaded tactics were mainly tested with Arsenal and Valencia as I stated. So they can't work 1:1 for other or weaker teams. They were meant to give you an insight into the details of the settings and as an example on how to set up the intructions in relation to each other. They contain my understanding and experience of how to set up instructions. Others may see this differently. But no matter how they are created, making them work for individual teams is not done in a minute. But needs time, persistence and testing. A lot of good ideas and different theories for that can be found in the tactics forum, in the tactical bible or elsewhere.

Anyway, I have started a new game now with Wigan, relegation candidate. I knew I can't use the uploaded tactics, but I tested it - it was devastating. But I want to try the basic framework and see if it can be set up for weaker teams. Up to now I have touched almost every slider in the settings - and only the friendlies are just over. I'll keep you posted how this is working. Maybe it's possible to create another basic version for weaker teams. That still would need to be adapted to every other team - and maybe won't work for the top teams anymore. But then, FM09 will come out some time and we start all over again...

Thanks again for trying, for tweaking and for the feedback. Keep it up!

Cheers, Z.

[yugular]

Originally posted by zagallo:

As I said in my intial post, the thinking behind it was to transfer ideas from real life into the game. If it works - and for a lot of teams it does - it can make the game more interesting and hopefully more realistic. But it seems to me that this kind of realism falls down, when playing with weaker teams...

I had to bold it! I have played this game series for some 10-12 years or so. And I have seen the game getting better. Still I have rarely seen realistic game. I used to win every competition with Millwall in few years. I won Champions League with Finnish sides. And the game (or how ME shows it) hasn't been realistic.

This framework gives me a step towards realism and I enjoy it. I have struggled with some teams (8.0.1&8.0.2) but I am still happy. I like how the team builds variety of attacking moves and acts as a unit in the field. I didnt use this approach in order to win everything, I used it because it brought me the joy back into the game. I started to get bored. I have seen screenshots of Eduardo scoring over 100 goals in one season (8.0.2). I dont want that to happen in my game. This framework works great for me and I have huge respect for Zagallo to put all this effort on this kind of project.

About weaker teams. I don't see why this can't work for weaker teams, but I quess I have to test it. I'll be back with some results. Does Millwall qualify for weaker team?

-yugular

ps. Sorry for possible spelling errors etc. I hate the fact that I can't edit own posts!

[yugular]

Ok. I started it. I chose MVV from Dutch Eerste divisie (1st div). Media prediction is 11th(of20). Board expects respectable position in two years. I never use editor to check any CAs or PAs so I cannot say a lot about the quality of the team. I'll report when I have something to tell/ask. And I use flat442 for the firts time.

Again Zagallo if you dont support this research - just a word and I call it a quits. However I think this will be interesting idea. MVV should qualify for a weaker team. My playing pace is sometimes quite slow so don't expect reports for tomorrow.

-yugular

[yugular]

Two questions for Zagallo:

1-Just asking your opinion. How do you think I should tweak the tactics?

-creative freedom down 1-2 notches?

-mentality?

-tackling?

-marking?

2-Target man. If you could just explain what do you expect from target man in this flat formation. Also which stats you highlight.

Thanks

yugular

[Guest]

Hi yugular.

Thanks for the support.

Well, I have made so many tweaks now, it's kind of hard to sum up. I have reduced creative freedom and mentality, but the latter not too much. I'm still in normal. Tackling is the same, only the MCs use hard tackling if hard games. I use tight man-marking for the whole backline, at times for the MCd. MCd gets barrow to DMC, except in attacking tactic. I worked a lot on the FBs - their FwR and RwB must be reduced. Another big thing is the closing down. I tried much higher and much lower team closing down, both didn't work. So I got into the player closing down. I found that when I raise it for the team, I have to lower it for the players and vice versa. Logic supports that somehow - if the team as a whole presses more, the individual players should be more behind the ball. If the players press earlier, the whole team should drop back some more (also effect on def line...). That works pretty well right now.

What I also found was that getting into the games too defensively will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. So against mid-table teams I use a more attacking approach at home. Basically I have nothing to loose. And I can switch to control or counter if it gets too difficult.

On target man: I use the same setting as before, but with reduced FwR for TM. Exception: counter. I've set it to run onto ball, not ticking TM, using RwB often for both. So I need 2 pretty fast FCs with good RwB stats. As I won't get too many chances against better sides, they should be able to convert well. Difficult with my Wigan strikers... ahem...

So let's see how that works.

[Asim]

just a quick question to those who are not having any luck as weaker teams.

does the tactic not work at all, or does it work against other weaker teams and not againse bigger teams.

maybe changing mentality from 2-6-2 to 4-5-1 might help to make it harder for other teams to break you down.

playing another DMC in the position of MCa and the other striker to drop back as an AMC.

keeping fullbacks tight with the DC's.

i tried this a few times when i was struggling, i moved the striker position to an AMC, DMC and even a sweeper sometimes against pacey forwards.

it actually worked to my suprise, wingers dont get to much joy with crossing but the target man was strong and had high work rate + determnation to play up on his own.

@Yugular

the target man is maninly the striker that the ball is played up to he can hold it up and allow others to join in the attack. With Z's tactic crosses and corners are all player into him and i tend to get a lot of goals with my TM.

key attributes would be:

Strength

Bravery

Heading and Jumping

Finishing and Composure (important for any striker)

Balance can be important to hold the ball up

First touch also, as ball is played up to him to feet.

and maybe anticipation and off the ball so he can get into space ahead of his markers.

its hard to find strikers with all of these i know that. i may be wrong but thats what i think a TM should have?

but then again, not every striker is as good as Berbatov.

[yugular]

MVV

Beginning was struggle. Team was over wage budget and I had to kick some staff&players out.

Friendlies well, at least they tought me few lessons!

Ass.man won Ascoli at home 2-1 and lost one game for Sint Truiden.

I lost against Dijon 1-6 and match home against NAC Breda after 45mins was 0-5! I changed tactics and end result was 3-5. I used wrong settings at first half and Dijon game.

Well, season is about to begin and I have confidence that I can make it work.

[Guest]

Thanks Asim and yugular.

Here come the first results from my Wigan test. Luckily they have some transfer budget to raise the quality of the team (promised them a finish in upper half of the league...). Aims: more defensive stability in midfield and defense, more technical players in attacking midfield, improved forwards. Trying to get mostly experienced players with good mental stats. Plus exchange 80% of the coaches.

In: Matias Almeyda DMC, , Sergey Ignashevich DC, Andrey Arshavin AMLC, Jean Il Makoun DMC, Dagoberto AM/FC. Youngsters: Bogdan Stancu FC, Sotiris Ninis AMRC, Preston Edwards GK. Had to buy a cheap DL because my FB got a long-term injury and we had no cover, got Nuno Valente - great investment!

Out: Palacio, Valencia, Aghahowa, Scharner, Heskey.

So no wonder-signings, but solid investments. Defense line was only improved on two positions.

The results so far:

Wigan vs. Reading 4:1

Tactic: attack

Possession: 56%

Shots/on goal: 15/9

Comment: bad first half, hair dryer in half-time, then they woke up. 4th goal was a penalty

Aston Villa vs. Wigan 1:1

Tactic: control

Possession: 58% (!)

Shots/on goal: 8/4

Comment: good holding game maybe too patient, 1 fault in defense = 1 goal

Difficult to decide for a tactic – after the first game we are above Villa in the table... Strange...

Wigan vs. Tottenham 2:0

Tactic: attack

Possession: 57%

Shots/on goal: 12/4

Comment: after the first goal (in 2nd half), they change to 3-4-3, we grab the second goal from a counter.

Rank 2 in the table now! Will it get more or less difficult now?

Liverpool vs. Wigan 1:2

Tactic: counter

Possession: 54%

Shots/on goal: 5/3

Comment: you won’t believe it, I didn’t believe it! Got more possession although playing counter and run onto ball. Good morale seems to make a huge difference! Game report: penalty for us in the 45th, 71st stupid banana shot from Crouch 1:1, they change to 4-2-4, us to shut-up and again grab a counter goal. Haha...

Wigan vs. Coventry 3:2 (League Cup)

Tactic: control, later attack

Possession: 54%

Shots/on goal: 12/7

Comment: put the reserve and youngsters in, most of them lacking match fitness. Scored early goal, them team got complacent and conceded. Tactic switch and we were through.

Wigan vs. Chelsea 2:1

Tactic: control

Possession: 48%

Shots/on goal: 11/5 (Chelsea: 17/13, Kirkland was MoM)

Comment: #2 vs. #8. 22nd minute 1:0 from freekick. Later Shevchenko faster than DC, 1:1. Then 67th minute free kick for Chelsea, all players upfront - ball is cleared long, Dagoberto and Cech run onto ball, Dagoberto is first, rounds Cech and scores with a 45 yard kick into the empty goal. Wow! Back to shut-up, done. Unreal. Absolutely.

Man Utd vs. Wigan 3:3

Tactic: counter

Possession: 50% (!)

Shots/on goal: 9/6 (ManU: 22/12, Kirkland again MoM)

Comment: survived 22 minutes 1:0. Classic counter on 26th, 1:1. 35 deflected shot from Rooney 2:1. 42 counter after corner 2:2. Half time. 49% possession, 5 shots, 4 on target. 59th poor clearance from DC 3:2. 69th penalty 3:3. Never ever would have expected that...

Wigan vs. Middlesbrough 2:1

Tactic: control

Possession: 58% (!)

Shots/on goal: 13/4

Comment: confident performance, although not overwhelming. Conceded only when I tried possession tactic at the end...

I'm on a 8 game unbeaten run now. Still second in the league. Critics say it’s merely a matter of time... Think so too... But hey, who would have bet on these results before?!

[dawaz10]

Hey Z, i have been following your 2-6-2 thread since the beginning and first thanks ive learned alot from all your posts. I have one problem however, I am playing with Man U and since the beginning of your tactics i have been getting dominated on the road. I have tried control counter possession and now recently added defend tactics. the attack tactic works wonders dont get me wrong, the only reason i prolly still have a job is because i have been winning home games. I was wondering if anyone else is having this problem? for example in second season now and only away games i have won are against recently promoted teams while using the attacking tactic, i have lost every other game making it 5 of 7 including 4-0 to arsenal away, 5-1 to inter and 3-1 to aston villa. I have made some solid purchases upgrading my fullbacks and dm. some of the away games i get the advantage in possesion but get rediculously out shot. the counter tactic really seems to get it the worst as i avg like 35% possession and get out shot before i go down and have to switch back to the attacking tactic. Do you have any suggestions on what i can do to stop getting dominated away? Like playing teams like arsenal and inter away you would normally use the counter tactic from what i have read. but my scout would tell me that these teams will be using a defensive 4-4-2 tactic and therefor i switch to control as the counter should be useless, am i right?

[Guest]

Hi dawaz10.

Thanks. But that is somewhat strange. All feedback I got from people using that framework with ManU were more than successful with it. And I can't imagine how that might happen with a team of such a quality...? Did you try the "deep" tactic for away games? Might help you. Could it be a re-ranking thing? In season 2 I wouldn't use that much counter style anymore. Also I wouldn't use possession for ManU. What team mentality did you use? Maybe you are too offensive or not offensive enough? If you use the control tactic, put team mentality on the first notch of attacking or the last notch of normal (vs. good sides). That should work perfectly. Do you use tight marking for the DCs? Do you use the OIs?

When playing away against strong teams, you can use two different ways with a quality team. 1. have a deep def line, play wide and lower attacking and with higher normal closing-down, normal tempo and lots of through balls. This keeps possession, treis to draw the opposition out and reduces the danger of conceding from counters. 2. higher normal def line probably with offside trap, normal width, high closing-down in midfield and upfront, low attacking mentality. That puts constant pressure on the opposition, reduces their space and time and tries to dominate the game. But that's the risky way, you better have quick DCs with good anticipation for that... One of those should actuyll work.

[g9010303]

i can download the file including the tactics and training, and can move the tactics into the right file so i can use them in the game but i dont know how to get your training into my actual game?

[Guest]

Go to the training screen. There is a pull-down that says "Schedules". Choose "Edit Schedules...". A window opens, click "Import". Select the file and click "Select". Click "Ok". Done.

[yugular]

MVV continues from previous posts...

First analyze of the team:

Weaknesses:

-Fullbacks. No cover for first choices. Couple loan moves did help on this matter, but still the quality is not good enough because fullbacks are key positions in this framework imo.

-No clinical striker. Some decent forwards, but not top quality even for this league.

-Finances, affects on available signings + continuity as I cant renew that many contracts and many players have contract ending next summer.

-Coaches -> training

-Scouting – actually doesn’t matter that much because of poor finances.

Strenghts:

- Midfield. Pretty good choices to MCa and MCd positions.

- Left wing. Two good options to play ML.

----------------------------------------

After 8 games im on 11th position with 2w4d2l goals 15-15 Pts 10

I have been leading quite often, but opponents somehow manage to turn the game in the end. Defenders make fatal faults and certainly lack talent. Other teams also have clinical strikers, while im still waiting if any of my strikers makes impact.

I have used pretty often control tactic which gives me good possession and scoring possibilities. Counter tactic wasn't success in the beginning of the season, but I might give it a go once more...

I'll be back with better feedback when I have played more.

[yugular]

Ok I have to report this. 9th round match away against slightly better SC Cambuur. I chose counter tactic.

I lost 3-1 (3-0HT)

My wings were leaking. Opponent wingers were always free and managed to play crosses behind my defence and Cambuurs pacey strikers were laughing at our defenders. Central defenders did't win any battles and MCd was pretty much the only player who managed to play fairly well defensively.

I got only 3 counter attacks during the game (extended highlights) and one produced a goal.

Somehow the counter doesn't work for MVV

[SuSSex_GuNNer]

@ zagallo

I have been using your tactics with Arsenal and the first season they worked a treat. I won the Premier league, i got knocked out of both the cups as i was still using my own failed tactic. I also reached the Champions League semi final.

Now i have started the second season and i am unsure which tactics to use now as the onews i was using are starting to let me down a bit. I have signed a few players so i understand they need time to settle but they are only subs at the mo untill they get used to my system.

In the first season i was using Attack @ Home and Control Away, but they dont seeem to be working now.

Do you have any suggestion on which tactics to use now or and tweeks to make.

[Guy W]

zagallo

thanks very much for these tactics, i'm playing a game as arsenal and these seem to work best for me. adebayor in the right(target man) position seems to work well, and eduardo as left striker seems good too. and the corner tactics also gets me a good amount of goals too, mostly the target striker(i once had bendtner get a hattrick from just corner goals)

although like suggested a few posts above the counter tactic could use some work should you produce another tactics pack

yet again thanks

[Asim]

as Zagallo has explained everyone seems to struggle in 2nd season. i stuck with it and im now in 4th season.

i mainly use control at home and counter away and it works great for me although a few tweaks are required.

all i did was reduce cb's mentality 1 notch.

and put the CMd mentality down until it becomes defensive.

also change CB marking to man.

tactic has always created chances, it just defensively teams can catch you out.

so far i have only conceeded 5 goals 15 matches this season.

[Kizo]

@zagallo

unfortunately, i have lost faith. since realising that the first tactic pack wasn't for 8.0.2. patch, i downloaded the sedond pack. but, unfortunately it works even worse. form is erratic, there is no way i am able to keep score (conceeding two goals in last 10 minutes), can't keep a clean sheet. obvioustly, it only works with arsenal, not with an average team.

nevertheless, good thread though, lot to learn, hope you try another tactic.

[Guest]

Thanks for th feedback, guys.

To all those who struggle in season 2, please take a look at this thread in the tactics bible:

Ranking, Re-Ranking and adapting

That might help you understand the problem and some reasons behind it.

Especially with the counter tactic, it gets more difficult after a successful first season, as there are not many teams left, that will play an attacking style against you. Most of them will start quite or very defensively or try to score a quick goal and park a bus infront of their goal immediately after. So a counter attacking style simply cannot work reliably and as often as before as there won't be that many attacks to counter anymore.

Instead you will then face deep defensive lines, high closing-down maybe with hard tackling, slow and shorter passing with high time wasting. The opposition will use a DMC or a MCd with barrow to secure the goal even more and will try to counter attack themselves.

So your playing style has to change or at least adapt. There will be less space available to exploit and you have to find the key how to unlock the defense. You have to try to draw the opposition out of position, make the play wider and deeper and patiently (tempo) try to build-up chances to score. You have to be more creative, but not necessarily more attacking (as you are the only one that attacks). Your defensive line can be deep to be on the safe side vs. counters. Or very high to limit space for the opposition. You can try to play down the flanks and get behind the def line (from byline, long farrows) if possible (and your wingers have the ability). Or you can play a quicker short passing game with lots of through balls also from the wingers playing in and out and more FwR from the midfielders. In both cases very attacking FBs are a strong support as they help creating numerical superiority while attacking. The oppositions defense should be pressed more and earlier. By the strikers (closing-dwon) as well as via OIs. Your midfielders should also press more and at times harder to win the ball back earlier. You strikers might use more movements and runs and less holding play as there will be less space and more defenders around them. They also can draw the opposition out with runs to the flanks for example. If having good long hitters, try shooting at the goal from distance more.

All these possibilities and tweaks can help playing against defensively minded sides. Now it's up to the teams abilities and the manager to decide which way to go and which if them to use. But: the framework itself allows for all theses measures as it is possession based. Especially the attacking FBs will be very helpful. The basic set-up will be attack, with its high def line and higher closing-down (even away against weaker sides) and control, with its wide play, the deeper def line and patient build-up. But it's not as easy as in the first season where attacking at home and counter or control away will keep you successful with many changes.

@Guy W & SuSSex_GuNNer

Glad it worked for you pretty well. Hope these explanations above (and maybe some looks into the tactical bible) help you to tweak the tactics successfully. But: I don't think I will produce another tactic pack for season 2 and after. Sorry. As said before, the tactic set was not meant to be used as a download-and-play (although possible with Arsenal). But as an example and guideline how to set this up. The tweaks are up to anyone who uses them.

@Kizo

I'm sorry that it didn't work for you. But I can assure you, that this does not only work for Arsenal. If you take a look at the posts in this thread you will find proof that it can be put to work also with average teams. Although there is quite a lot of effort to be put in.

[yugular]

MVV the story goes on...

14 games played. form: 3w7d4l goal diff: -2 pts:16

11th place in the league.

The game is starting to roll better every game with attack and control tactics. I rule in the field, but my strikers can't score and my defence makes horrid mistakes.

Teams in the bottom are the hardest to win as they play very defensively and my forwards can't finish any nice attacking plays.

I am still on the 11th place as media predicted so I quess I should be happy? No I am not. MVV is playing better than league table indicates.

tobecontinued...

-----------------------

I still believe that I can work this around and make the tactic work. The team lacks quality in all fields and I am still playing well. Maybe a bit luck would do the trick.. Last game against last team in the league I was winning 2-1 but they got their second point so far in the league by scoring overtime goal from unbeliavable poor angle.

[SuSSex_GuNNer]

@Guy W & SuSSex_GuNNer

Glad it worked for you pretty well. Hope these explanations above (and maybe some looks into the tactical bible) help you to tweak the tactics successfully. But: I don't think I will produce another tactic pack for season 2 and after. Sorry. As said before, the tactic set was not meant to be used as a download-and-play (although possible with Arsenal). But as an example and guideline how to set this up. The tweaks are up to anyone who uses them.

Cheers zagallo, i want to use these tactics as you suggested and not just download and play but i am probably the worlds worst tweeker as every time i tweek a tactic i seem to send my team into freefall down the table

[beverage1982]

Hi guys,

Just thought i'd throw my hat into this ring. As Zagallo says these are not Diablo like win everything tactics. i took his 8.01 suggestions and made my own 442 and actually have used elements of his control tactic from the new set as well.

I am Villa and try to not sign many players and i can agree that in the first season i swept all before me with the counter attacking style (and villa are certainly no arsenal)but when it hit the second season i struggled to break teams down; so you do as the guy says and just change up, i went wider, slower and gave the guys a little more creative freedom and it worked a treat. Although i still use counter attacking in Europe where the fools underestimate me.

Anyway this ratehr long and pointless rant is to say> the tactics do work whether you are arsenal or lower (in fact i used them to success with lEWES) you just need to take them and make them your own, then adapt them depending on how well you are doing. Unfortunately the game no longer has a one tactic win's all solution and you have to work each season and soemtimes each game to get the most out of it. This is much mroe realistic and whilst it may seem like hard work, is actually more rewarding as you have made the tactic your owm.

Still encouraging to see so many people adopting this approach as i think it is the ebst i have seen on these forums and a great template for you to go and make the tactic work for your team.

[yugular]

beverage1982

MVV The same old song...

Nothing chaneges. Team plays well but strikers and defenders lack quality to make the difference. Mid-table finish seems to be position but I will move forward to my own game.

This framework works for lower quality teams. It doens't make them Arsenal - which is good! - but gives keys to joyful game experience. Just what I needed.

Sorry zagallo I wont play till the season finishes as I don't see the point. I managed to convince myself that the framework can also work for lower quality teams. Good luck and keep up the good work!

yugular

[beverage1982]

@yugular

Havent readmany7 of your MVV posts so forgive my ignorance.

When i played this framework with my Lewes team (who were shociking) i took creative freedom right down, went direct, went narrower, quicker and strangely pushed the def line up (even though my CBs are like tortoises with limps.

And it has worked wonders. You probably know all this but i think the tactic needs to eb adapted for the league you are playing. For example, in Italy i would go slower and deeper, in lower leagues direct passing and pressing, in prem a bit of a mix.

Zagallo will probably be able to talk about this in a lot more detail than me anyway just my findings to date. but i will bring success to the dripping pan, oh yes i will!

[yugular]

Shame again I can't edit my post...

I forgot to mention that I solved the problem with counter tactic. It doesn't function very well in flat formation, but I tried it couple times with diamond and it worked. So if you have problems with counter tactic -> try diamond formation. It gives better positions to MC players in both ends and this ensures the ball can be moved quickly through the field.

[yugular]

Originally posted by beverage1982:

@yugular

When i played this framework with my Lewes team (who were shociking) i took creative freedom right down, went direct, went narrower, quicker and strangely pushed the def line up (even though my CBs are like tortoises with limps.

And it has worked wonders. You probably know all this but i think the tactic needs to eb adapted for the league you are playing. For example, in Italy i would go slower and deeper, in lower leagues direct passing and pressing, in prem a bit of a mix.

Yep! knew that, done that! (well not the exactly same changes i guess.)

The fact that this framework requires tweaking makes it very interesting!

[beverage1982]

Good stuff Yugular, thought i may have been giving rubbish advice, i will stop

All i can say is keep it up, i have had nothing but fun with this framework and was really falling out of love with the game before it came along.

I too like the fact you have to work at it and reminds me a lot of the RoO and RoT from previous versions, keep us updated though and i hope it brings success. LLM is fun. I'm currently close to promotion with my lewes team and in with a shout of the FA Trophy and Setanta Shield, it's outrageously fun, especially after encouraging Mustapha hadji to come and play in front of my 35 season ticket holders

[frithnick]

Hey zagallo been trying this with my newcastle team but seem to concede nearly top amount of goals each year!?

I noramlly at home use control(top half teams) Attack(lower)

Or away control or counter?

i sometime find oi break down ur shape?

any help please?

[Guest]

Originally posted by beverage1982:

Hi guys,

Just thought i'd throw my hat into this ring. As Zagallo says these are not Diablo like win everything tactics. i took his 8.01 suggestions and made my own 442 and actually have used elements of his control tactic from the new set as well.

I am Villa and try to not sign many players and i can agree that in the first season i swept all before me with the counter attacking style (and villa are certainly no arsenal)but when it hit the second season i struggled to break teams down; so you do as the guy says and just change up, i went wider, slower and gave the guys a little more creative freedom and it worked a treat. Although i still use counter attacking in Europe where the fools underestimate me.

Anyway this ratehr long and pointless rant is to say> the tactics do work whether you are arsenal or lower (in fact i used them to success with lEWES) you just need to take them and make them your own, then adapt them depending on how well you are doing. Unfortunately the game no longer has a one tactic win's all solution and you have to work each season and soemtimes each game to get the most out of it. This is much mroe realistic and whilst it may seem like hard work, is actually more rewarding as you have made the tactic your owm.

Still encouraging to see so many people adopting this approach as i think it is the ebst i have seen on these forums and a great template for you to go and make the tactic work for your team.

Thanks beverage1982. You're my hero!

[Guest]

Originally posted by yugular:

I forgot to mention that I solved the problem with counter tactic. It doesn't function very well in flat formation, but I tried it couple times with diamond and it worked. So if you have problems with counter tactic -> try diamond formation. It gives better positions to MC players in both ends and this ensures the ball can be moved quickly through the field.

Hi yugular. Thanks for the MVV posts!

As you seem to struggle with the counter, I'll give you some ideas how to make it work better for weaker teams: Put the def line on tight man-marking. Reduce team mentality a notch or two. Reduce creative freedom to little. Use tempo 10. Play narrow (last notch). Play last notch of short passing. Set closing down to 12, def line to 8 or 9. Set to run onto ball! Give both FCs RwB often. Give TM very high closing down and direct passing, no hold-up ball plus cross from mixed, fast FC closes down lowest of whole pitch, uses lower mixed passing and crosses from deep, both MCs on first whole pitch. MCa everything to medium except through balls often. MCd everything to low except through balls mixed, tight marking, same mentality as reduced DCs (2). DCs close down at 4, FBs at 13. FBs set to first notch of direct passing! No FWR, no RWB for them, mixed crosses and through balls often. Wingers also on direct passing, fwr and through balls often, rest mixed. FBs and wingers all on cross from deep. Try it and tell me what you think...

[Guest]

Oh, and I forgot: Close down often their whole midfield via OIs.

[SuSSex_GuNNer]

@ zagallo

I have been using your suggestions for the second season with Arsenal and they were working wonders but now i think i have become a victim of the re-ranking again as i have now lost 6 in a row and should have easily won 4 of the games.

I have tried to change the framework to 3-5-2 and 4-5-1 but i cant seem to even scrap a win.

Have you any more suggestions as i do not want to give up on my season.

[yugular]

@zagallo

I didn't go back to my MVV save, but I tried some possible tweakings to counter tactic. The most important factor seems to be the fact that when playing with weak defenders you shouldn't use zonal marking.

Still diamond counter works better than flat counter. Same marking rule applies for diamond formation as well.

thanks,

yugular

[frithnick]

Originally posted by frithnick:

Hey zagallo been trying this with my newcastle team but seem to concede nearly top amount of goals each year!?

I noramlly at home use control(top half teams) Attack(lower)

Or away control or counter?

i sometime find oi break down ur shape?

any help please?

any help please?

[Guest]

Originally posted by SuSSex_GuNNer:

@ zagallo

I have been using your suggestions for the second season with Arsenal and they were working wonders but now i think i have become a victim of the re-ranking again as i have now lost 6 in a row and should have easily won 4 of the games.

I have tried to change the framework to 3-5-2 and 4-5-1 but i cant seem to even scrap a win.

Have you any more suggestions as i do not want to give up on my season.

So you're having problems to score or defensively? If the first, there is no need to get more defensive with the frame or team mentality. With Arsenal I'd raise closing-down and def line. They should be able to play that. Also I assume that you have brought in some new and probably better players. Then raise the creative freedom in midfield/wingers and use one or two free roles (MCa? FC?). Play the FBs with more attacking instructions (fwr, rwb) - that puts the most pressure on the opposition. Also take a look at the games you lost. Why didn't you score? Did they park a bus in front of the goal? Or what made it so difficult? Then you should find a solution.

[Guest]

Originally posted by yugular:

@zagallo

I didn't go back to my MVV save, but I tried some possible tweakings to counter tactic. The most important factor seems to be the fact that when playing with weak defenders you shouldn't use zonal marking.

Still diamond counter works better than flat counter. Same marking rule applies for diamond formation as well.

thanks,

yugular

Hi yugular.

Yes, I know. I've see it with Wigan. They simply can't play zonal defense without conceding. I didn't have much time to play the last days, but I tested it in the friendlies before... Man-marking gives them the chance to use their physical stats more instead of relying on technical and mental ones. And can be played successfully with the 2-6-2.

I also think that the DMC and the multi-strata formation is much better for weaker teams to use. Even in real life I would use a DMC for any weaker side as it make the backline much more reliable. If one doesn't want to use a diamond, there is also the possibility to use a 4-1-3-2 with an MCa instead of AMC. So probably this is the advice for all who want to succeed with this framework with weaker teams?!

Thanks. Z.

[SuSSex_GuNNer]

Originally posted by zagallo:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SuSSex_GuNNer:

@ zagallo

I have been using your suggestions for the second season with Arsenal and they were working wonders but now i think i have become a victim of the re-ranking again as i have now lost 6 in a row and should have easily won 4 of the games.

I have tried to change the framework to 3-5-2 and 4-5-1 but i cant seem to even scrap a win.

Have you any more suggestions as i do not want to give up on my season.

So you're having problems to score or defensively? If the first, there is no need to get more defensive with the frame or team mentality. With Arsenal I'd raise closing-down and def line. They should be able to play that. Also I assume that you have brought in some new and probably better players. Then raise the creative freedom in midfield/wingers and use one or two free roles (MCa? FC?). Play the FBs with more attacking instructions (fwr, rwb) - that puts the most pressure on the opposition. Also take a look at the games you lost. Why didn't you score? Did they park a bus in front of the goal? Or what made it so difficult? Then you should find a solution. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problems i am having are defensively and are mainly in the Champions league, as i currently hold the record for the most goals conceded in a season.

I thought that it might be a momentary lapse of concentration, but when it happens every game then it becomes a problem. Most of the goals com due to my defenders not picking up an attacking player and they are left free to score.

My Defense:

~~~~~~~~~~Main~~~~~~~~~~Backup~~~~~~~~~~

GK - Ben Foster / Preston Edwards

DR - Ryan Taylor / Justin Hoyte

DL - Gael Clichy / Armand Traore

DC - William Gallas / Havard Nordtveit

DC - Johan Djourou / Philippe Senderos

MCD - Gilberto Silva / Abou Diaby

[Guest]

The problems i am having are defensively and are mainly in the Champions league, as i currently hold the record for the most goals conceded in a season.

I thought that it might be a momentary lapse of concentration, but when it happens every game then it becomes a problem. Most of the goals com due to my defenders not picking up an attacking player and they are left free to score.

Okay, got it. Might be that even in CL they play a little more defensively against you. But usually they don't stick to it but try dangerous counters. And most of the teams there have at least one good striker to score in that case... So maybe you need to adapt the settings for the def line for CL. I'd go a little deeper with the def line to reduce the chance of counters. But the defenders could close down a little earlier. And I would raise the closing down in midfield too, trying to use the midfield line as the first line of defense. Maybe also reduce some width? And I wouldn't play too offensive in CL then. Better slow build-up, more holding possession. That should mak eit more difficult for opponents.

[Guest]

Originally posted by frithnick:

Hey zagallo been trying this with my newcastle team but seem to concede nearly top amount of goals each year!?

I noramlly at home use control(top half teams) Attack(lower)

Or away control or counter?

i sometime find oi break down ur shape?

any help please?

Hi frithnick. Sorry, I didn't answer yet. Your choice of tactics is correct. So this shouldn't be the problem. Just like the thing with Tottenham we dicussed on the page before, it seems as Newcastle also mirrors real life in the game. At the moment they have 56 goals conceded irl, which is second most in the league! So it can't be seen as one of the better sides from that point of view - and you have to tweak the settings to that. Go more defensive, probably tight man-marking for the whole backline. Reduce width and creative freedom and try to play deeper. Don't give the FBs too many offensive instructions (fwr, rwb). That should add to your defense's compactness. The OI mainly disturb the shape when there are really fast players on the other side. So you have to adapt to that. Don't put closing-down often on fast midfielders or strikers. But an all others in midfield in your case. If the oppositions FBs are strong even close them down often. If all that doesn't improve the performance think of using a DMC instead of playing a falt 4-4-2. That will give your defense more stability too. Good luck though.

[Asim]

Zagallo

have you tried the playmaker role with this tactic at all, and does it make a difference?

i am ranked 1st with tottenham, and i managed to beat arsenal away for the 1st time in the game.

teams are less attacking against me, and i just want the team to keep the ball.

i set my MCd as playmaker, as i assume he gets most space in midfield. Veloso is the MCd, used to be carrick, seems to be alrite so far.

just wanted to know if you have used it at all and in which positions.

[Guest]

Hi Asim.

No, I haven't. But some guys reported that it works well with the MCa position. Starting from that, it should also do so with the MCd position if the player has the right stats (Veloso should be great in that). Although in a flat 4-4-2 I would prefer the more attacking player to be the center of the game as personally I don't want the MCd to be too deep and the MCa up the field. But that's just personal preference...

[Guest]

A quick albeit interesting update on the Wigan test.

Fulham vs. Wigan 2:4 (League Cup)

Tactic: counter

Possession: 50% (!)

Shots/on goal: 10/7

Comment: was afraid of a difficult cup game so I chose counter. Also put my best headers into the game although not first team as Fulham is strong in the air – both good decisions. 0:1 after 6 minutes, DC clears with long header, striker runs though defense. 1:1 free kick goal. 34th 1:2 typical counter with through ball from midfield. 54th almost same situation as 1st goal (looked like an offside...). 60th 2:3 error from DCs. 87th 2:4 after quikc pass from sideline. Good performance all around.

Wigan vs. West Ham 3:1

Tactic: control

Possession: 50% (!)

Shots/on goal: 12/3

Comment: still difficult to choose the right tactic. The team’s quality is not as good as the league position. So game predictions are not spot on. Anyway, didn’t start well. Fault from GK in minute 2, 0:1. West Ham is pushing and has 90% possession. 11 minutes later 1:1, the team finally has arrived in the game... 51st good interaction of strikers 2:1. 78th thunderous drive from Ingnashevich, 3:1. All in all didn’t create enough chances, but was very efficent upfront and solid at the back.

Portsmouth vs. Wigan 2:2

Tactic: modified control (deeper & via wings)

Possession: 56%

Shots/on goal: 16/9

Comment: strange game, Portsmouth use 4-3-3, so I go wider, run via flanks and play 2 defensive MCs. 29th, 0:1, 32nd 1:1, looked like an offside. Hit back fast, 34th just as I wanted with a winger running to byline, crossing to free striker and boom. 41st 2:2, a fault from the GK... After that plenty of chances but no conversion. Have the feeling I’m in a training slump. Anyway, the draw brings us closer to reality...

Bolton vs. Wigan 1:1

Tactic: modified attack

Possession: 51%

Shots/on goal: 11/4

Comment: key DC injured, key DMC suspended – and playing vs. fierce rivals. Not the best of games. . Decided to play attacking to pressure them before they pressure me. But with a deeper d-line. Worked well, although conceding in 24th. Main reason: weak defense. Clawed one back in 58th, but couldn’t score more.

Wigan vs. Birmigham 4:1

Tactic: control

Possession: 51%

Shots/on goal: 13/8

Comment: first team at start again, conceded a stupid goal at the beginning, but turned the match successfully. Very good player ratings and nice push for morale.

Newcastle vs. Wigan 0:2 (League Cup)

Tactic: control

Possession: 57%

Shots/on goal: 16/8

Comment: patient build-up and high possession was the key to success. Another game without conceding though.

Arsenal vs. Wigan 3:3

Tactic: counter

Possession: 52%

Shots/on goal: 11/6

Comment: Used OIs for every player. 1:0 stupid backpass from rightback into the feet of Adebayor. 11th, 1:1 exploting their high def line. 13th 1:2 via flank. Then they geared up a bit, but their short passing fell down due to rainy weather. 1:3 in the 38th, nice counter-attack with pass from deep and FC running on goal. (Btw to me it sems it’s quite easy to score when Almunia is GK...) Almost 60% possession in the first half!! 50th 3:2, 57th 3:3 they were playing very attacking using long farrows. But the counter kept tight even when they changed to 4-2-4. All in all a good result and a beautiful game.

Wigan vs. Everton 1:0

Tactic: control

Possession: 51%

Shots/on goal: 9/6

Comment: boring game, only 1 goal, 3 points - that’s what I call efficiency...

Sum up: After 13 league games 3rd place in the league having 29 points. In front are Chelsea and Man Utd both with 30 points. We are the only team that didn't loose a game in the league yet. It’s only 22 matches now – but the results look convincing that it is possible to use the framework for weaker teams. I'll keep going for a while...