Signing 16-18 year old players

14 hours ago, Michael Sant said:

@Smoo has that player transferred to Auxerre or has he come through their youth system? 

If he has come through at the club then that's just a representation of the circumstances in which a player can end up having been in another nation. For example, the players family relocated. 

However, its a really good example of something we would look into with this. He's a couple months off turning 18, he wants to leave and despite the fact he could have that move in a few months time (January) he's turned it down. Many thanks for providing that one, I'll get it passed on directly to our QA team who can check this out in more depth. 

Examples don't have to be as strong as this one, but we definitely welcome further examples as save game files with specific negotiations in which we can review the logic behind the scenes is a massive benefit. 

Honestly, just ask the QA team to see a list of 18 yr olds who are interested & then the list of equivalent players who are nearly 18. You don't need us to do this. It's incredibly lazy & I won't be buying another version.

I always like to scout young talents and develop them from my u18's on while building a nation/team. Because of the change you've made I'm not able to sign any talent and this complete aspect of the game is gone now!!

I think the way it currently goes isn't realistic, but even if it might be, it deletes an entire part of the game we love!!! Please revert this to FM22 settings otherwise I'll quit playing and have to go back to 22 or something. 

On 24/12/2022 at 20:23, Stiegmeister said:

I always like to scout young talents and develop them from my u18's on while building a nation/team. Because of the change you've made I'm not able to sign any talent and this complete aspect of the game is gone now!!

I think the way it currently goes isn't realistic, but even if it might be, it deletes an entire part of the game we love!!! Please revert this to FM22 settings otherwise I'll quit playing and have to go back to 22 or something. 

Even in FM22, signing a youth will join your club when will turn 18 y/o. You have only paid the compensation and that's it. Things has been changed to stop "buying" cheap from smaller clubs. In order SI to follow FIFA, they just add "not interested".

Frustration? Yes, but more realistic IMHO. 

On 26/12/2022 at 20:14, fc.cadoni said:

Even in FM22, signing a youth will join your club when will turn 18 y/o. You have only paid the compensation and that's it. Things has been changed to stop "buying" cheap from smaller clubs. In order SI to follow FIFA, they just add "not interested".

Frustration? Yes, but more realistic IMHO. 

Fc.cadoni you don't know what you're talking about. You buy for compensation because the players haven't signed a professional contract yet.

This happens still today & is still completely legal. In your make believe world do young players sign binding contracts for 5 years before they turn 18? A player can sign a contract (pre contract) with their training club. But if they haven't yet, training compensation is applied & that is just how this works. And for the record IS being correctly applied within the game. Loads of players are signed for compensation in FM22...

Because the UK came out the EU, transfers for players must be for 18 years or older. This is fine. It has no bearing on the mechanics of this game & why they have changed so much.

Young players aren't interested in signing for any team until they are able to sign immediately & at the time of negotiating for the contract. That is the bug. The rest of the nonsense being spouted on this thread has nothing to do with anything else.

1 hour ago, davemcglennon said:

Fc.cadoni you don't know what you're talking about. You buy for compensation because the players haven't signed a professional contract yet.

This happens still today & is still completely legal. In your make believe world do young players sign binding contracts for 5 years before they turn 18? A player can sign a contract (pre contract) with their training club. But if they haven't yet, training compensation is applied & that is just how this works. And for the record IS being correctly applied within the game. Loads of players are signed for compensation in FM22...

Because the UK came out the EU, transfers for players must be for 18 years or older. This is fine. It has no bearing on the mechanics of this game & why they have changed so much.

Young players aren't interested in signing for any team until they are able to sign immediately & at the time of negotiating for the contract. That is the bug. The rest of the nonsense being spouted on this thread has nothing to do with anything else.

Can you enlighten me with official documents?

Because in FIFA documents this has been changed. Also, between EU - EU clubs can be signed when it's under 18 and pay the compensation. 

8 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

Can you enlighten me with official documents?

Because in FIFA documents this has been changed. Also, between EU - EU clubs can be signed when it's under 18 and pay the compensation. 

Shouldn't SI or you show us what was changed in the FIFA documents?

I have attached the 2022 copy and I don't see there is any difference.

You can look at page 29 INTERNATIONAL TRANSFERS INVOLVING MINORS

There is NO rule to stop clubs signing pre contract with players younger than 18.

That's exactly how Real Madrid signed Endrick.

RSTP 16 March 2022_EN.pdf

If people needed proof of how stupid the current "implementation" is then Endrick-Real just showed it. Yet if i try to purchase him as Real Madrid ingame i'm met with a "not interested".

This bug needs a fix and possibly in this year's version because it's gamebreaking in my opinion.

There's a lot more nuance and potential legal issues involved though. There certainly are some things involving the transfers of U18's we cannot replicate in FM. Don't conflate this with "everything works fine right now" but there's an awful lot elements involved with U18 transfers that probably wouldn't stand up in a court if there were two competing clubs involved or a dispute arose. This has happened a number of times historically.

Can Endrick legally sign a contract to play for a Spanish team in 2 years time at 16? I genuinely don't know the answer, but if everyone agrees to things in principle, the clubs are happy with the money, other invested parties are happy with the money, and no one rocks the boat it probably goes through fine. 

It's an area we're working on the balance of moving forward - like many areas of the game such as the ME. More save specific examples where players are on senior/professional/fixed term contracts and you feel they ought to negotiate but don't will be beneficial to try and reach that moving forward. 

13 ore fa, Michael Sant ha scritto:

There's a lot more nuance and potential legal issues involved though. There certainly are some things involving the transfers of U18's we cannot replicate in FM. Don't conflate this with "everything works fine right now" but there's an awful lot elements involved with U18 transfers that probably wouldn't stand up in a court if there were two competing clubs involved or a dispute arose. This has happened a number of times historically.

Can Endrick legally sign a contract to play for a Spanish team in 2 years time at 16? I genuinely don't know the answer, but if everyone agrees to things in principle, the clubs are happy with the money, other invested parties are happy with the money, and no one rocks the boat it probably goes through fine. 

It's an area we're working on the balance of moving forward - like many areas of the game such as the ME. More save specific examples where players are on senior/professional/fixed term contracts and you feel they ought to negotiate but don't will be beneficial to try and reach that moving forward. 

Considering that it has been fine for more than a decade to have it in FM i struggle to understand this reasoning honestly. And even then, at least make it possible for regens since they are not real people (but i still think it should be doable with every player).

On 01/01/2023 at 22:58, Michael Sant said:

There's a lot more nuance and potential legal issues involved though. There certainly are some things involving the transfers of U18's we cannot replicate in FM. Don't conflate this with "everything works fine right now" but there's an awful lot elements involved with U18 transfers that probably wouldn't stand up in a court if there were two competing clubs involved or a dispute arose. This has happened a number of times historically.

Can Endrick legally sign a contract to play for a Spanish team in 2 years time at 16? I genuinely don't know the answer, but if everyone agrees to things in principle, the clubs are happy with the money, other invested parties are happy with the money, and no one rocks the boat it probably goes through fine. 

It's an area we're working on the balance of moving forward - like many areas of the game such as the ME. More save specific examples where players are on senior/professional/fixed term contracts and you feel they ought to negotiate but don't will be beneficial to try and reach that moving forward. 

Just revert the change. You've broken the entire premise of the game for so many players. There's no legal justification and as a developer you're just saying "is it legal, isn't it legal, I don't know." Well if you don't know. WHY DID YOU CHANGE IT???

It's a maddening situation that you're simply not listening to the actual players of the game. No person visiting this thread, aside from Mr Football Club Cadoni, believes this change has been influenced by any change in reality.

Players unable to sign IMMEDIATELY are never interested in moving. As soon as they turn 18, a switch is flicked and they are interested. It makes literally zero sense & the game is broken.

It's amazing as you literally have this ON YOUR WEBSITE: https://www.footballmanager.com/the-byline/top-tips-youth-recruitment-fm23

Read the bold in red. You literally state a) this is possible & be should be used. Yet you're refusing to fix it.

DELVE INTO THE ‘APPROACH TO SIGN’ MARKET

In FM23, any player not yet old enough to sign a professional contract within their based nation or tied up with their club with a future professional contract that automatically applies when they get old enough, will have ‘Approach to Sign’ available as an option in the Contract dropdown of their profile.

The age at which players are eligible to sign professional contracts varies by nation – in England and Germany it’s 17, while in much of South America it’s 18. 

If you find a player that’s interested in discussing terms with you, your club will only have to pay a compensation fee to sign them. This can be a great way of sneaking in ahead of the established bigger teams and finding someone who can possibly lead your team and net you a big profit in seasons to come. 

You pretty much ruined the whole game. It s impossible for me to transfer any good under-18 player even from my own country and I'm the best team in the league by far. I understand why good youngsters from spain or other developed countries wouldn't want to play in romania at an young age but to not be even able to transfer players from your country our nations worst than you, that is'n t normal. If this is not fixed this is the last year I'm buying the game.

This is still ultimately something being done to better reflect the rule changes over recent years. We appreciate people are unhappy with some elements, and it will be subject to further adjustments moving forward to get a better balance. As all subjective aspects of the game are. 

We're still only at a point where we'd be able to ask for individual examples from save games (before you try to sign the player) where we can jump in and take a look to help identify areas for further improvement. The reason to ask for save games with specific examples is to hopefully expedite and find as many areas to better balance as possible. It's an area in which you can help shape the process by providing tangible examples. Other than that then you would need to wait for the next update and we'll review feedback on it following that.

 Costel Iordache doesn't want to sign for me. Just 2 days later turns 18, when I talk to the agent he wants to sign. This isn't normal for sure. Thanks for your answer, I hope this is changed after the update, in my opinion it should be even changed right away as it is a bug, transfer do happen before players turn 18, a lot of them. Thanks for your reply.

On 05/01/2023 at 23:05, davemcglennon said:

Just revert the change. You've broken the entire premise of the game for so many players. There's no legal justification and as a developer you're just saying "is it legal, isn't it legal, I don't know." Well if you don't know. WHY DID YOU CHANGE IT???

It's a maddening situation that you're simply not listening to the actual players of the game. No person visiting this thread, aside from Mr Football Club Cadoni, believes this change has been influenced by any change in reality.

Players unable to sign IMMEDIATELY are never interested in moving. As soon as they turn 18, a switch is flicked and they are interested. It makes literally zero sense & the game is broken.

Well, I will try to not look at mocking behavior you have.

Endrick case was 30+ millions (pounds) and not compensation fee (2m for example). Real Madrid has "cheated" or bypass some rules according to official papers which the nicholas.shen provided (thank you). Since this is not a court and legislative place, U18 transfers between clubs in EU (UK is not in EU) works (even before reaching 18 y/o). If you need proof, there it is.

Thank you,
fc.cadoni

Edited January 13, 2023 by fc.cadoni

On 11/01/2023 at 11:41, Michael Sant said:

This is still ultimately something being done to better reflect the rule changes over recent years. We appreciate people are unhappy with some elements, and it will be subject to further adjustments moving forward to get a better balance. As all subjective aspects of the game are. 

We're still only at a point where we'd be able to ask for individual examples from save games (before you try to sign the player) where we can jump in and take a look to help identify areas for further improvement. The reason to ask for save games with specific examples is to hopefully expedite and find as many areas to better balance as possible. It's an area in which you can help shape the process by providing tangible examples. Other than that then you would need to wait for the next update and we'll review feedback on it following that.

What exactly are the rule changes you guys keep talking about?

The FIFA official document is available on the internet to everyone. Please show us the changes.

Edited January 13, 2023 by nicholas.shen

12 hours ago, nicholas.shen said:

What exactly are the rule changes you guys keep talking about?

The FIFA official document is available on the internet to everyone. Please show us the changes.

And here how Real Madrid "cheated" or "bypass" it.

Nobody gonna stand against, if Real M. gave work opportunity to the parents of Endrick to bypass that rule. It's the back door.

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Another rule which can easily "bypass" by Real Madrid with 30+ million offer.

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So, Endrick actually will sign typical a professional contract when reach 18 y/o. Until then, will have amateur contract and having his parents to provide him financial support (hello, Rule 2, Real Madrid have offered - typically for papers - work for Endrick parents).

====

That is an example how clubs bypass rules. Especially the clubs like Real M.

9 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

And here how Real Madrid "cheated" or "bypass" it.

Nobody gonna stand against, if Real M. gave work opportunity to the parents of Endrick to bypass that rule. It's the back door.

----

Another rule which can easily "bypass" by Real Madrid with 30+ million offer.

----

So, Endrick actually will sign typical a professional contract when reach 18 y/o. Until then, will have amateur contract and having his parents to provide him financial support (hello, Rule 2, Real Madrid have offered - typically for papers - work for Endrick parents).

====

That is an example how clubs bypass rules. Especially the clubs like Real M.

I'm afraid you have forgot Endrick is still a Palmeiras player in all legal documents (he signed a professional contract with Palmeiras before Real Madrid signed him). He is playing for Palmeiras in Brazil righ now. The international transfer in question has not happened yet.

Real Madrid abosolutely has no intention to bring him to Spain before he turns 18. Why do they need to take those actions to "bypass" the rules?

 

What Real Madrid did is getting Endrick sign a pre-contract to agree on a professional contract which will only take effect when he becomes 18.

The pre-contract itself won't turn Endrick into a Real Madrid player so that it doesn't against any existing rules.

This has been working perfectly in FM til SI screwd it up by changing the players' transfer interest behavior.

Edited January 13, 2023 by nicholas.shen

12 hours ago, nicholas.shen said:

I'm afraid you have forgot Endrick is still a Palmeiras player in all legal documents (he signed a professional contract with Palmeiras before Real Madrid signed him). He is playing for Palmeiras in Brazil righ now. The international transfer in question has not happened yet.

Real Madrid abosolutely has no intention to bring him to Spain before he turns 18. Why do they need to take those actions to "bypass" the rules?

 

What Real Madrid did is getting Endrick sign a pre-contract to agree on a professional contract which will only take effect when he becomes 18.

The pre-contract itself won't turn Endrick into a Real Madrid player so that it doesn't against any existing rules.

This has been working perfectly in FM til SI screwd it up by changing the players' transfer interest behavior.

Yeah, missed that it is pre-contract.

So, you are actually want pre-contract feature.

The exploit to buy every player in Youth Contract and pay 2 mil is over; but the only thing I am agree with you in this one is about having the option to buy like Endrick situation.

6 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

Yeah, missed that it is pre-contract.

So, you are actually want pre-contract feature.

The exploit to buy every player in Youth Contract and pay 2 mil is over; but the only thing I am agree with you in this one is about having the option to buy like Endrick situation.

Why are you presenting yourself as as someone that knows the rules? Teams still lose players to pre-contract agreements. Spurs lost 2x prospects to southampton this summer. the Pre-contract on youth contracts still exists? Of course it does. Is this unfair? Yes. The alternative?? minors at the age of 16 forced into signing pre-contract agreements from 18 until they're 23??

The game is not reflecting any changes in the real world. The devs have made a big change to how players decide their interest. They are citing legal changes as justification for it but are basically unable to present any basis of these changes to anyone on this thread. It's a farcical situation.

In any instance where we're being provided a save game to look into then this is being passed on for review. As mentioned previously, this is an area where we'll continue to work on the finer details. There's subjectivity to it and the underlying mechanisms in terms of when a player may be open to the move. There are rules from real life which we're looking to better present in the game. Ultimately the situation is quite simple in regards to this thread, you can provide specific examples from save games which we'll review and helps further refine this area. If you don't wish to do so, then that's fine - its an area we'll be working on anyhow. At the very worst if you provide save game examples with players, there's more of a chance it will work more how you hope in the future. 

Perhaps it was my own failing to try and have a bit of a discussion about Endrick as an example of the lack of clarity there is on the outside combined with my own personal (not to be conflated with SI as a studio & game developers) gaps in knowledge. 

Hi, 

I created the account because of this issue.

When will this bug be fixed? There are many discussion on this issue since October 2022 and it's is not resolved?

Not going to continue on this game till it's fixed. Wouldn't have bought this game if i had known of this catastrophic bug.

I wonder who in the right mind will prefer to continue to develop in the club with a poorer training facilities and reputation etc....

In real life, how many would reject a scholarship to a better school if given the choice?

A chinese idiom describing this "feature" is drawing a snake and adding legs to it.

 

On top of that, it seems we have a bug regarding the under 21 rule, even if you manage to get 1 or 2 youngs new gen hot prospects fro brazil or argentina, or any other foreign country, now the game is stating I can't get more players because exceeded the 6 MAX under 21 foreign players for uk clubs?? WHAT?  :

 

Player accepted, and game blocks it:

 

https://gyazo.com/9c9ca56c75de1caa28e258994d5fa2ea 

 

Current transfers this season: 

 

https://gyazo.com/8bb05450f08937dfa7ad16ee1a8fe37f 

 

So what "Season" means in this context? I'm so lost right now, this makes no sense.

It's still bugged. Less than 20 out of 300 brazilians 16 years old are interested in joining Real Madrid, the club with the most reputation ingame (and irl as well).

Honestly thank god i have the ig editor otherwise i would've refunded by now to go back to 21 when this nonsense wasn't happening.

Oh and by the way Endrick, you know the non-EU 16 years old brazilian that IRL got a deal with Real, is set with a future transfer move in the new database. How ironic isn't it?

Hi @DMaster2we have made changes looking to address this.

Can you please send us a save file where this is happening for you so we can review further, thank you.