Is Garnacho going to get upgraded for the full release?

I believe he has promising potential in-game which may develop.

However, considering he's has been in the first team squad all season and showed an impressive performance starting in the Europa League last night, I think he should have higher current ability so he can actually be playable in the first season.

He has had a *big* CA upgrade, so saying he still looks about the same as FM22 is strange. He also has a high PA (albeit one with a range so it will vary depending on your save). Probably worth bearing in mind he hadn't started a game for the first team until literally last night.

On 28/10/2022 at 23:15, Nick OGS20 said:

He has had a *big* CA upgrade, so saying he still looks about the same as FM22 is strange. He also has a high PA (albeit one with a range so it will vary depending on your save). Probably worth bearing in mind he hadn't started a game for the first team until literally last night.

He may only just be making first-team appearances this season, but he has been named on the bench most games and did make a couple of appearances in 21/22.

The point being, he wouldn't be making the bench of anyone's Man Utd team in FM23 with those current ability stats for the majority of the first season, so doesn't seem realistic.

Another thing with Garnacho is that for me he is still Spanish when he is actually registered with Argentina

6 hours ago, jaikumar2004 said:

Another thing with Garnacho is that for me he is still Spanish when he is actually registered with Argentina

I think he will still be eligible for Spain as he's only been capped at U20 level, despite being called up to the main squad.

However, I think these call-ups to Argentina and displaying their national flag is pretty much a declaration of choosing to play for them, rather than Spain.

@Nick OGS20 Another start in the Europa League and scored the winning goal. Further starts ahead of Sancho/Elanga are inevitable.

I'm sure an upgrade will be warranted in the next updte if he keeps getting game time, but why not amend some of his stats now, simply to make Garnacho a useful squad player from the start of the season?

Having such a variable PA and a disappointing CA (despite the increase) limit him to the reserves for the first season at best. Evidently this isn't realistic. 

Really hoping there could be some CA boost so you can actually have him as a squad player in the first season. 

Played amazingly yesterday again, even scored the winning goal. 

agreed. CA underestimate many of United Players this year. Dalot is playing like a god and he is exactly the same as last year. Lisandro Martinez is the anchor for United defence, and statistically (by premier league website) he is better than virgil in terms of tackling (higher success tackle rate, higher 50v50s duels, same duels won. yet virgil is 17 tackle and he is 13. Ganarcho play superbly mature, both dribbling and tactically, and his anticipation is less than 10, and kinda identical compared to fm22. Rashford run all over the place for the ball and 10 work rate? very weird jugdement

On 03/11/2022 at 19:57, McClane29 said:

@Nick OGS20 Another start in the Europa League and scored the winning goal. Further starts ahead of Sancho/Elanga are inevitable.

I'm sure an upgrade will be warranted in the next updte if he keeps getting game time, but why not amend some of his stats now, simply to make Garnacho a useful squad player from the start of the season?

Having such a variable PA and a disappointing CA (despite the increase) limit him to the reserves for the first season at best. Evidently this isn't realistic. 

The database for the release version of the game was locked some time ago, before the start against Sheriff, so my initial response still applies here - you're effectively complaining that we didn't have a crystal ball on the go. He's had a significant CA increase and has a high (and increased) variable PA (expected a fixed high PA at 18yo seems unrealistic?). Expecting more than that based off the situation as it was a few weeks ago doesn't seem grounded in any sort of reality and is really entirely based off games in the last fortnight - unfortunately the database has to lock at some point in advance of release to ensure everything is tested, quality checked etc.

Personal view, and the proof will be in the pudding, but I think it's a bit of a failure of imagination to think that if you're managing United in FM that he can't be any use to you in the first season, particularly with 9/12-man benches and five subs per game. Alternatively, there's always the option to use the editors. If this current form is sustained then obviously he will be significantly improved again for the next full data update.

 In my new save that i started right now,he has 1 determination. A damn joke this random determination thing. I have to remake the save. It completely ruins my game if I see players that I plan to use to have such low determination.

There was time to downgrade a fair few of them before lock. Maguire, Sancho to name a few but few if any upgrades. Dalot who has actually looked much better in past year has CA remain as 139 the same as FM22 but somehow has PA cut from 162 to 158. Same with De Gea CA cut from 150 to 145. Rashford From 159 to 151. Garnacho has done little at senior level so not even counting him in discussion. It's a full on cull across the board. There was a quote earlier for justification for not updating that form is temporary and class is permanent. This works both ways. But seems much easier to downgrade than reward form or return to form. The team was in a bad place last season with temporary manager and team suffered. New manager has seen a return to form for a lot of them, if not exceeding how they performed last season even if only 3rd of the way through.

 

1 hour ago, JIMBOFMCD said:

There was time to downgrade a fair few of them before lock. 

 

This is a pretty nonsensical statement - you are conflating changes that were made in the summer as part of the main player reassessment exercise with changes people are demanding based off events in the last couple of weeks before the release of the game.

I don't disagree that there have been a number of mitigating circumstances that have contributed towards underperformance in recent seasons but it's unrealistic to expect prolonged periods of poor performance (which is the case for the players you have mentioned) to not be reflected in ratings. I really find it pretty staggering that 'a fair few downgrades but few if any upgrades' could be considered a controversial approach after how atrocious last season was. 

I've seen Dalot mentioned a few times and on current form he'll likely merit an increase in the next update, but this idea he's suddenly a world-beater is a huge overreaction and claiming he's looked 'much better in the past year' is pure revisionism - this time last year he was getting absolutely tortured by Danjuma in one of the most excruciatingly bad full-back displays you'll ever see at the top level, and there was certainly no significant improvement over the course of the season. 

11 hours ago, x-11 said:

 In my new save that i started right now,he has 1 determination. A damn joke this random determination thing. I have to remake the save. It completely ruins my game if I see players that I plan to use to have such low determination.

What rating would you give him for determination, and what would your justification for that be?

2 hours ago, Nick OGS20 said:

This is a pretty nonsensical statement - you are conflating changes that were made in the summer as part of the main player reassessment exercise with changes people are demanding based off events in the last couple of weeks before the release of the game.

I don't disagree that there have been a number of mitigating circumstances that have contributed towards underperformance in recent seasons but it's unrealistic to expect prolonged periods of poor performance (which is the case for the players you have mentioned) to not be reflected in ratings. I really find it pretty staggering that 'a fair few downgrades but few if any upgrades' could be considered a controversial approach after how atrocious last season was. 

I've seen Dalot mentioned a few times and on current form he'll likely merit an increase in the next update, but this idea he's suddenly a world-beater is a huge overreaction and claiming he's looked 'much better in the past year' is pure revisionism - this time last year he was getting absolutely tortured by Danjuma in one of the most excruciatingly bad full-back displays you'll ever see at the top level, and there was certainly no significant improvement over the course of the season. 

Its not nonsense when there has been changes made since beta release and full game. What was missed during summer reassessment that the last two weeks can influeance further changes? I'm not saying these player shouldn't have been only that downgrading seems easier to apply were as every excuse is used not to upgade in same window (data was locked, not enough game time to assess if warranted, only been transferred etc etc).

Who asked for Dalot to be made a world beater and by the same token how is once match used to justify that he hasn't improved, whether that be of his own volition or the new manager has actually help improve his performances this season so far (which is more than one game).

20 hours ago, JIMBOFMCD said:

Its not nonsense when there has been changes made since beta release and full game. What was missed during summer reassessment that the last two weeks can influeance further changes? I'm not saying these player shouldn't have been only that downgrading seems easier to apply were as every excuse is used not to upgade in same window (data was locked, not enough game time to assess if warranted, only been transferred etc etc).

Who asked for Dalot to be made a world beater and by the same token how is once match used to justify that he hasn't improved, whether that be of his own volition or the new manager has actually help improve his performances this season so far (which is more than one game).

With all due respect - you replied to my justification for not being able to upgrade Garnacho (the database being locked before he even made his first start for the club) with a comment that I found time to downgrade others, which surely you can see is spectacularly missing the point?

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make by pointing to Maguire and Sancho having attributes decreased. By all means attempt to make the case that they didn't deserve it, but they were very obvious decisions for me, and they were made mid-summer based off 1-2 season's worth of performances, not kneejerk. 

1 hour ago, Nick OGS20 said:

With all due respect - you replied to my justification for not being able to upgrade Garnacho (the database being locked before he even made his first start for the club) with a comment that I found time to downgrade others, which surely you can see is spectacularly missing the point?

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make by pointing to Maguire and Sancho having attributes decreased. By all means attempt to make the case that they didn't deserve it, but they were very obvious decisions for me, and they were made mid-summer based off 1-2 season's worth of performances, not kneejerk. 

I'm not missing the point only stating observations as to why players are downgraded easier than players getting any sort of an upgrade. You can read my comment again i'm not making a case for Maguire or Sancho having a decrease, but that they have been decreased in the period since the beta release (which would have included the summer reassessment) and the full release so the downgrades appear to have only happened within the last few weeks.   

12 hours ago, JIMBOFMCD said:

I'm not missing the point only stating observations as to why players are downgraded easier than players getting any sort of an upgrade. You can read my comment again i'm not making a case for Maguire or Sancho having a decrease, but that they have been decreased in the period since the beta release (which would have included the summer reassessment) and the full release so the downgrades appear to have only happened within the last few weeks.   

thanks for your input @JIMBOFMCD.

In the development process, the closer we get to data deadlock, the less manoeuvrability there is in terms of what data we amend.  It depends on factors such as whether it is something that has brought to our attention, how important it is, whether it could have any undesired knock-on effects, and whether it can be done.  We have processed 12m data changes since the winter update.  The data is constantly changing, reflecting changes in the world of football.  In the last few weeks we cannot possibly process everything that everybody wants to be done, or is asking to be done. 

None of our decision making is based on bias towards either increasing or decreasing attribute ratings.   @NickOGS20 is on top of the research, and is always ready to talk about any aspect of the data.  The last Maguire/Sancho changes that you quote were made three weeks ago.  We had to lock the data for the Early Access Beta some time before it was released, and immediately we were already working on changes to be made for the Full Release version of FM2023 (but again, the scope for the possible amount of changes was still more limited).

I think that Nick has explained Garnacho's ratings.  I am sorry that you find that those ratings are not as up to date as you would wish them to be, but please feel free to use the editor to adjust his profile to your satisfaction.

 

10 minutes ago, Pete Sottrel said:

thanks for your input @JIMBOFMCD.

In the development process, the closer we get to data deadlock, the less manoeuvrability there is in terms of what data we amend.  It depends on factors such as whether it is something that has brought to our attention, how important it is, whether it could have any undesired knock-on effects, and whether it can be done.  We have processed 12m data changes since the winter update.  The data is constantly changing, reflecting changes in the world of football.  In the last few weeks we cannot possibly process everything that everybody wants to be done, or is asking to be done. 

None of our decision making is based on bias towards either increasing or decreasing attribute ratings.   @NickOGS20 is on top of the research, and is always ready to talk about any aspect of the data.  The last Maguire/Sancho changes that you quote were made three weeks ago.  We had to lock the data for the Early Access Beta some time before it was released, and immediately we were already working on changes to be made for the Full Release version of FM2023 (but again, the scope for the possible amount of changes was still more limited).

I think that Nick has explained Garnacho's ratings.  I am sorry that you find that those ratings are not as up to date as you would wish them to be, but please feel free to use the editor to adjust his profile to your satisfaction.

 

Appreciate the feedback and its not a dig at Nick as its a lot of responibilty for one researcher which is why open discussion should be encouraged for users to share input. As stated downgrade of these 2 is probably warranted, Garnacho is not an issue for me as he's only broken into 1st team so it is too early to asses at this level. However there was few posts on the data issues section in regards to a case for the likes of Dalot (performance/match ratings have much better in last 6 month not only for Utd also Portugal) to warrant some changes. He has the same CA rating as FM22. Cases for Martinez in terms of his tackling ability, Jumping/heading (vs real world stats for ariel clearances), Mentals seem fine apart from determination (12 seem very low, drive and passion to the cause seem evident in the games so far to suggest its part of his personality). hopefully a few more months and it can strengthen the case for the winter update.

compairing a few CB you can from fbref.com he has attempted more tackles vs. dribble past attempts with a high success %. Take Saliba or Gomez on similar % and they have tackling of 15, Koulibaly has 17

As for heading or more so the jumping side comparing his closest Koulibaly has 16 & 15 for jumping and heading and Saliba is 16 & 16

Just some food for thought in the interest of discussion. But its only my opinion

 

Thanks guys.

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, JIMBOFMCD said:

Appreciate the feedback and its not a dig at Nick as its a lot of responibilty for one researcher which is why open discussion should be encouraged for users to share input. As stated downgrade of these 2 is probably warranted, Garnacho is not an issue for me as he's only broken into 1st team so it is too early to asses at this level. However there was few posts on the data issues section in regards to a case for the likes of Dalot (performance/match ratings have much better in last 6 month not only for Utd also Portugal) to warrant some changes. He has the same CA rating as FM22. Cases for Martinez in terms of his tackling ability, Jumping/heading (vs real world stats for ariel clearances), Mentals seem fine apart from determination (12 seem very low, drive and passion to the cause seem evident in the games so far to suggest its part of his personality). hopefully a few more months and it can strengthen the case for the winter update.

compairing a few CB you can from fbref.com he has attempted more tackles vs. dribble past attempts with a high success %. Take Saliba or Gomez on similar % and they have tackling of 15, Koulibaly has 17

As for heading or more so the jumping side comparing his closest Koulibaly has 16 & 15 for jumping and heading and Saliba is 16 & 16

Just some food for thought in the interest of discussion. But its only my opinion

 

Thanks guys.

 

 

 

Thanks @JIMBOFMCD - I absolutely agree that this kind of discussion can only be helpful, especially when it is supported by evidence, such as you have provided, re Martinez.

Just his first Premier League goal today to win the game....

Not sure how many times 'when the data was locked he'd played ~25 nondescript minutes for the first team this season' needs saying but i'll give it another go.

Nick’s made his position on Garnacho very clear. If there is a factual error like his height or playing history stats with any of his data, please open a bug report. His attributes will be reviewed for the next research cycle. Locking this thread because there’s no further discussion needed on the matter.