Can any use be made of the STR and STL positions?

That is, those in advance of AMR and AML. I thought it might be a good way to make sure players in the Inside Forward role make lots of off-the-ball runs in behind oppo defence, particularly when playing with a False Nine, Treq or DL Forward in the STC position, and play in line with F9 or slightly ahead, in terms of average position.

Having tried it though, I wonder about how the ME interprets these roles. Although on the tactic screen players accomplished or natural as AMR or AML show up as accomplished or natural in the STR and STL positions, when playing a game I keep getting hints from my assistant that X player is being played out of position, a winger who doesn't have positional attributes as a striker. Is he wrong, or will the ME interpret them as wingers pushed into a striker role, thus not going to reach their best regardless of being on a winger or inside forward role.

Another thing is they are not considered 'wide' roles so the instruction to swap wide players won't work, which is a problem for me.

Has anyone else tried this? Are they as they are meant to be or is it sort of a tactics screen ME mix-up? Example below.

The ME treats them as AML/AMR's/

If you want them to make runs in behind the defence then why would you have them so advanced that their isn't actually much room for them to run into? For this to happen they actually need space behind so pushing them up will only reduce and take this away as their really isn't anywhere for them to run into.

I would plan to play deep, to see what effect that had. The point being I want them to act like wide poachers, in a way. When the F9 has the ball quite deep and I'm playing with regular AMR/AML positions, I find they don't look to dart in behind when there seems to be plenty of room to do so.

My only concern is the lack of defensive cover down your wings, AI can easily take advantage by using the exploit the flanks instruction.

Nevertheless, it's an interesting idea and I'm looking forward to see the results of your tests!

Defensive cover? Ugggh I'm not thinking about it as yet. Defence comes later. :-)

The ME treats them as AML/AMR's/

If you want them to make runs in behind the defence then why would you have them so advanced that their isn't actually much room for them to run into? For this to happen they actually need space behind so pushing them up will only reduce and take this away as their really isn't anywhere for them to run into.

Most likely for the same reason you use advanced strikers.

I'm just questioning your statement that ME treats STR as a AMR. Where does this information come from? It's not consistent with what I've found to be true.

I just played two games to just see how it works out:

A front line of 3 with AML/a, STC/s and STR/a. I subbed the whole forward line at half time and changed it to STL/a, STC/s and AMR/a. Both wide roles always inside forward attack with sit narrower and cross less.

Here's what I saw:

- Defensive contribution about the same, I could not make out any difference between the two stratas. They follow the full backs to an extent, and drop deeper than the STC when the ball is in your third.

- Attacking positioning was different. STR/L got up real quick and stayed pressed against the defensive line, AMR/L got up with a little less conviction and were content to stay in front of their defenders.

- Attacking movement was also different. STR/L hanged out amidst the defensive line darting back towards the ball a little then getting back in line, they also seemed to drift laterally a little bit. They would pair themselves with the striker readily when the ball moved to the final third. AMR/L Make little runs toward the defensive line and then drop back in between lines looking to receive the ball there.

- Average positions were always STR most advanced, then STC then AML in the first half, then in the second half the mirror image of that. The difference between AMLR and STR/L were not insignificant.

- AMR/L received the ball typically at feet in front of their defenders, while STR/L were more isolated from the build up play but would receive more balls in behind.

But maybe I imagined it all and the position maps were only happenstance and so on. Who knows.

And to the OP, yes, I once used a system where I had a STR, A STC and an MC/a. The primary attacking plan was to get the ball up to the target man fast, have him drop it to the onrushing MC/a and then have him play the ball in behind for the STR. It was good, I won the Welsh premier.

But the rest of the side were much less aggressive.

Most likely for the same reason you use advanced strikers.

I'm just questioning your statement that ME treats STR as a AMR. Where does this information come from? It's not consistent with what I've found to be true.

From SI and I'm pretty sure it was confirmed they would be removed for FM15. And he didn't use it for the same reason as you do advanced forwards if you read what he put.

From SI and I'm pretty sure it was confirmed they would be removed for FM15. And he didn't use it for the same reason as you do advanced forwards if you read what he put.

He wants them to do lots of off-the-ball runs in behind the defense. What do you use an advanced forward for? Or rather a forward in an advanced position.

Anyhow, I picked up a few moments on gif from a match. I'll just put them out there and you can guess which winger is the STR/L and which is the AMR/L:

1.Ball is won some way into left side of own half and played into the middle. Left wing is looking for a ball over the top, right wing is hanging back in space a little and looks to get involved. He receives the ball out wide and dribbles inside and loses the ball.

2. An aimless pass is intercepted in the middle of the park. Left wing immediately darts behind and the right wing draws wide away from his opponent. The ball is played to him and he loses it again.

3. Ball is won on the right side of own half. The right wing stays in space, left wing draws away wide from his opponent. The ball is played through the center and when it reaches the striker the right wing darts in behind, but the striker is dispossessed.

4. Ball is won deep and on the right of own half. It's played through the right wing to the center and back right and so forth and in the end the central midfielder misplaces his through ball. The right wing stayed in space and was heavily involved in the build up while the right wing on the far side looks to spring the offside trap.

5. Left back wins the ball and plays it into midfield. Left wing runs in behind and right wing draws wide into space. Midfielder dribbles the ball and feeds the left wingers second attempt to run in behind while the right wing starts running to far post. A cross goes for a goal kick.

6. Ball is won back relatively centrally well into own half. It's worked forward through the width of the left side of the pitch. The left winger charges up and assumes a position ahead of the main striker. Right wing jogs forward, pulls wide and stays on level with the play. This results into a side netted shot. If only the forward pass had come sooner.

7. The ball is won in and worked through the middle. Both wingers try to break into the channels behind the defense. Crehin's passing wasn't spot on this time either.

This is the heat map.

Am I really just imagining that there's a difference between these positions? What do SI know about their own game anyway?

Edit: Ah, sorry for the excessiveness of this post!

You've not shown me nothing above that the AML/AMR position doesn't do. When I'm hope and got FM installed again I'll show you the AML/AMR's doing the exact same as the screenshots above. Remember the opposition and how you play also influence how they behaviour. The screens above play in your favour due to how high their d-line is, you can see they are pushing very high up

I've never been able to get AMR/AML to get that high up the pitch relative to a F9, no matter the player instructions. But I get the same results with STR and STL as deserter. The player positions look closer to a diamond, with STR and STL as a broad front two, especially if I have them sit narrow, and the F9 in the hole. Which is what I want!

You've not shown me nothing above that the AML/AMR position doesn't do. When I'm hope and got FM installed again I'll show you the AML/AMR's doing the exact same as the screenshots above. Remember the opposition and how you play also influence how they behaviour. The screens above play in your favour due to how high their d-line is, you can see they are pushing very high up

Ok, I must concede that I missed something. The AM Inside forward is allowed to 'get further forward' while ST inside forward has that unavailable for him. With that checked, I'm very much unsure about the differences in their action. (Not to mention that it renders my gifs above moot.)

One thing is for sure though. STR will position himself higher than AMR in your own goal kicks. That doesn't count for much, but shows that it's not 'exactly' the same thing.

So, my mistake. Testing with wrong parameters by mistake. Time well spent. ;D

It's true you can't "get further forward" in STR and STL positions, but for the same reason you can't as a Poacher, as you are already there!

Below is an illustration where I played in the first half in the way I outlined. One issue is actually that they are two one-dimensional as "wide poachers" and don't receive simple passes like AMR/AML inside forwards, they see little of the ball and aren't well positioned to offer penetrating runs when needed.

But I am seeing more of the runs I want and I've seen Totti more likely to play balls in behind opposition defence but just frustratingly not quick enough in his decisions and spotting such movement from STR and STL players and his movement isn't broad enough as it is IRL, regardless of what I do it seems, and opposition don't find it difficult to swap between defenders and defensive mids in terms of tracking him. That's a different issue though.

When facing a back four, I've used them to press super aggressively (four players in the striker positions) and it works for that, but when attacking they are easily marked by the fb.

When facing a back 3, it works really good to create space. You can stretch the defense out (the STL and STR will get behind the Wb, so the CBs have to account for them) and create space for any midfielder rushing forward.