Reserve Teams (in Germany)

[opgen22]

I was using the search already, but I couldn't find the exact question, so I hope someone can clarify my issues. 

I started a save using a custom db. I started in Germany's fourth division, when asked I created a reserve team which started as quoted in the lowest league, which should be 2 or three tiers below the first playable league. 

1) Is there any chance that they will someday see the lights of a playable league? I don't mind the chances being very low, as long as there is any.  As I imagine, after couple of years, they potentially would (by chance and reputation) move up the ranks, but I have no idea if my reserves are only one league shy of being 'playable' or have never been promoted at all. I can totally live with that scenario. 

However, if they will never get promoted in those unviewable leagues, it'd take a lot of the immersion away, imagining I might be a CL team some day and my reserves still play in some local sunday league. 

This leads to following questions: 

2) Does the lack of high quality first team football damage the development of youngsters? Will it matter then, if they play in the unviewable 8th tier or in the unviewable 6th tier? 

3) As there is an option to create a reserve team, is there a way to remove it? If it points out that they will remain unviewable forever, I would search for an appropriate affiliate club instead. 

I am aware that I raise a lot of questions, but if there's any spare time I'd appreciate it a lot if somebody is willing to help. Maybe these issues remain the same in other countries, too. 

 

Thanks a lot in advance, if somebody can even help partly I'd be extremely pleased. I'm loving my safe so much, but this is bugging me 

Edited March 17, 2020 by opgen22

[Mitchutd]

Hi mate....

In answer to 1, it may be specific to your database.... but using the default database there is a change that your reserves will rise high enough to enter viewable leagues.

As you can see for Dortmund II, it took them awhile... but they made it to 3. Liga in 2037/2038. I was Dortmund manager from 35-38, so I'd like to think me feeding them some quality players was significant in helping them rise up to viewable. If you're at the same club for a long time and feed them good players, I presume the rise may occur earlier than 37/38.

They have also gone on to win it several times, but never promoted, I'm guessing there is a rule about Reserve teams reaching 2. Bundesliga.

2) I don't know for certain, but when loaning players out I see them improve significantly more when playing in a nations top league, than when playing for my reserves (Currently PSG 2).

[opgen22]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb Mitchutd:

Hi mate....

In answer to 1, it may be specific to your database.... but using the default database there is a change that your reserves will rise high enough to enter viewable leagues.

As you can see for Dortmund II, it took them awhile... but they made it to 3. Liga in 2037/2038. I was Dortmund manager from 35-38, so I'd like to think me feeding them some quality players was significant in helping them rise up to viewable. If you're at the same club for a long time and feed them good players, I presume the rise may occur earlier than 37/38.

They have also gone on to win it several times, but never promoted, I'm guessing there is a rule about Reserve teams reaching 2. Bundesliga.

2) I don't know for certain, but when loaning players out I see them improve significantly more when playing in a nations top league, than when playing for my reserves (Currently PSG 2).

Wow mate, you seem to enjoy your save.  I appreciate your answer a lot, although I'm afraid it does not really help me. Dortmund II starts in 'Regionalliga', which is the fourth division and the first one after the lowest playable, the '3.Liga'. This works as intended, determined by reputation and somewhat by chance. (Some people reload the final day in the season quite often to get their reserve up into the playable regions).

To apply my concern to your case, I'd like to know if they could have also moved up from the fifth League to the '3. Liga', so they would have to be promoted (virtually, without further notice) to 'Regionalliga' at first. In a perfect scenario, they'd appear in the '3. Liga' after two years then. I don't think you'll ever be informed about their competition progress, I assume if there's any way they'll just appear, then. The crucial question is if they ever will. 

My reserve team is currently full with players capable of playing in 4th to 5th division and I'm in my 4th year. Regarding the quality, they should have promoted at least 2-3 times with ease if they start in like the 9th tier. Even if they had bad luck, they have to appear in my first playable league, which is the 6th tier, in not too long. 

 

Edit: Yeah, German reserves are prohibited from player higher than third division. But it's all fine as soon as they will ever play there first official league game. 

 

Thanks a lot though!  

Edited March 17, 2020 by opgen22

[Mitchutd]

Ahh, I'm with you. Wasn't aware that Dortmund II started so close to the visible leagues, especially given how long it took them to get into 3. Liga.

Just read the rules on how teams qualify for 3. Liga..... definitely a bit of a minefield... Hope someone comes along with the right answer for you!

[opgen22]

Thank you mate, I'm not concerned with the 3. Liga in particular, it's just the broad question if teams (doesn't even matter if reserves or AI) can promote in the unviewable and unplayable divisions. I hope someone from SI can clarify or someone miraculously has seen it happen. 

As more as I think about it, I don't think it is reasonable that with the standard db let's say an AI team from German fifth tier, even in thousand years will never be promoted to third division. I assume the promotion is more dynamic than that, as it would only allow teams from the first non-playable league to ever reach anything worth being mentioned. It's something I've never thought of before, though, which would not only be an issue in my particular save but rather in the game in general. 

Edited March 17, 2020 by opgen22

[Mitchutd]

I don't know if this is any help (I have no idea of anything below 2. Bundesliga when it comes to teams), but here are the current 3. Liga teams.. not sure if any of those are teams which may have been promoted from below the Regionalliga.

 

[opgen22]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Mitchutd:

I don't know if this is any help (I have no idea of anything below 2. Bundesliga when it comes to teams), but here are the current 3. Liga teams.. not sure if any of those are teams which may have been promoted from below the Regionalliga.

 

Wow, this is kind of revealing, as there are no teams lower than Regionalliga, which can be seen as a proof. I'm astonished, as I really would have never thought the promotion/relegation system is THAT static. If it's no coincidence, it's a huge bummer for my reserves as they will be stuck in sunday league for ever, even if the squad is full of world-class players. But it's also sad for long-term saves in general. Luckily, as there are 5 'Regionalligen' in Germany, there is still some room for diversity and fluctuation. But if I'm correct, in a hypothetical single league structure with: 

1. Division, 20 teams, playable 

2. Division, 20 teams, playable 

3. Division, 20 teams, playable 

4. Division 20 teams, non-playable 

that even in 1000 years the top flight will always consist of those 80 teams, even if there are countless more potential teams available further down? 

 

[Mitchutd]

Have any teams made that jump in real life from 5. and below?

[Etebaer]

B-Teams can move up to 3.Liga and Bayern Munich B has  done so.

A-Teams have done and do still so, RB Leipzig started in Tier 5, some other Clubs with Sugardaddys (i.e. TSG Hoffenheim) and Investors slowly rose/rise through the Leagues, imho in Bavariy one Club made 5 consectuive promotions though the hurdle is Tier 4 where you only can grow further if you have external funding and 3.Liga is a graveyard for Clubs as the spending is almost 2.Bundesliga alike but the income is 1/10 i think.

Several Clubs without external income Sources have rejected Promotion and decided to stay in there leagues but this often leads to a downward spiral as the lack of Ambition drives away good Players - you are damned either way.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Etebaer

[opgen22]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb Etebaer:

B-Teams can move up to 3.Liga and Bayern Munich B has  done so.

A-Teams have done and do still so, RB Leipzig started in Tier 5, some other Clubs with Sugardaddys and Investor slowly rise through the Leagues, imho in Bavariy one Club made 5 consectuive promotions though the hurdle is Tier 4 where you only can grow further if you have external Funding and 3.Liga is a graveyard for Clubs as the spending is almost 2.Bundeliga alike but the income is 1/10 i think.

Several Clubs without external income Sources have rejected Promotion and decided to stay in there leagues but this oftern leads to a downward spiral as the lack of Ambition drives away good Players - you are damned either way.

As you describe what happened in real life, this is not exactly what my problem is. There was no doubt, if B-Teams can move up to 3. Liga.  From what I can tell in @Mitchutd's screenshot, even in 20 years in advance the 3. Liga will solely contain clubs that played in Tier 4 or higher. So it seems, that there is no way (in-game of course) for teams from fifth divison to ever reach the playable leagues. 

If you check in real life though, 12 out of 20 clubs in 3. Liga have played in the 5th division over the last 20 years. So the fluctuation is a lot more dynamic than it is in FM, it appears. 

The crucial question in the beginning was, if my newly created B-Team starting in as it said 'lowest tier of the German league structure' can possibly move up more than one virtual, non-playable league. 

The only thing I know is that they do play games, but I've no clue about their competition progress. They could have been promoted two ore three times already, being on the 'edge' of becoming visible and playable, or they will stay in that lowest tier for ever. 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by opgen22

[Etebaer]

Oh well, if it is a playable league than it will depend on how good the Team is managed and if it is an unplayable league it is random luck with weighted elements that skew the promotion lottery.

In FM19 the 3.Liga in my save became infested by B-Teams as they got not only Access to all the good A-Team Players but also had superior youth Players almost as good as Bundesliga Players and wrecked everything - that was with a league mod the enabled all german leagues down to Tier 6.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Etebaer

[opgen22]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Etebaer:

Oh well, if it is a playable league than it will depend how good the Team is managed and if it is an unplayable league it is random luck.

Thanks for your help, anyways. However, I'm afraid that what you're describing only applies to teams which are in the highest unplayable league. You can either adjust the reputation or reload a dozen times and then they will appear in the lowest playable tier. I'm concerned that a promotion from one NON-PLAYABLE league to another NON PLAYABLE league is not possible in general, either for my reserves or any AI managed team. 

[sergio-torres125]

On 17/03/2020 at 17:01, opgen22 said:

Wow mate, you seem to enjoy your save.  I appreciate your answer a lot, although I'm afraid it does not really help me. Dortmund II starts in 'Regionalliga', which is the fourth division and the first one after the lowest playable, the '3.Liga'. This works as intended, determined by reputation and somewhat by chance. (Some people reload the final day in the season quite often to get their reserve up into the playable regions).

To apply my concern to your case, I'd like to know if they could have also moved up from the fifth League to the '3. Liga', so they would have to be promoted (virtually, without further notice) to 'Regionalliga' at first. In a perfect scenario, they'd appear in the '3. Liga' after two years then. I don't think you'll ever be informed about their competition progress, I assume if there's any way they'll just appear, then. The crucial question is if they ever will. 

My reserve team is currently full with players capable of playing in 4th to 5th division and I'm in my 4th year. Regarding the quality, they should have promoted at least 2-3 times with ease if they start in like the 9th tier. Even if they had bad luck, they have to appear in my first playable league, which is the 6th tier, in not too long. 

 

Edit: Yeah, German reserves are prohibited from player higher than third division. But it's all fine as soon as they will ever play there first official league game. 

 

Thanks a lot though!  

Hey man, If I want to reload the day of the end of the season so that my team is promoted from the regionalliga, should I do it in the last game of the first team or when should I do it?  Thank you