New Patch trubbel, right, might need help.

[Linus_Shepard]

So before patch I was rocketing it. Good resaults decent play, somewhat along what I wanted. Sure there was shooting into the netting from the byline 75% of the time, but when my wide men wasent doing that they created some nice goals. Now however they absolutly refuses to pass\cross low into the box, instead they hoof it into the air. With Martial, Rashfoord, Greenwood etc in the box that dosent do ****. I have low crosses in the tactics but dosent help at all. I want my wingers to attack the box with speed, dribbling, while we get plenty of players inside the box. that part is working, but when they have good oppertunetis to pass\low cross they hoof it into the air. 

Any advice, tips, helpt etc would be great.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Linus_Shepard said:

Can you post these screenshots in English?

[Linus_Shepard]

Yeah my bad, dident even think about that. Anyway done now, So I`m I not creating space? are my offensive player to easy to mark out?

[Experienced Defender]

I am not going to comment the 1st tactic because I never use asymmetrical formations and therefore don't feel competent to discuss them (honestly, I don't like them). 

1 hour ago, Linus_Shepard said:

As for your 2nd tactic, I think it needs just a couple of tweaks, primarily on certain roles and duties. I manage Utd as well, so I know these players very well. If you want, I can tell you how I would set these guys up in a 4123 wide and explain you the tweaks.

[Linus_Shepard]

Yeah any advice would be nice, thanks!

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Linus_Shepard said:

Yeah any advice would be nice, thanks!

 

4 hours ago, Linus_Shepard said:

The most notable problem in your tactic is the left flank. You have an attacking WB and attacking MEZ on the same side, so who is supposed to protect the flank when both bomb forward? Therefore, my first suggestion would be - keep Pogba as a MEZ on attack (that's a good role for him), but change Shaw into IWB on defend. Why on defend, and not support? Because he has the trait "gets forward whenever possible", so he needs a duty that will discourage him from doing that too often because he needs to cover for Pogba. Remember, this current Man Utd is weaker than last season, primarily due to the departure of Herrera (which is a huge loss). 

Another potentially weak point is your selection of Fred as a player in the DM position. Fred is not defensively reliable enough to be the one that will play immediately in front of your defense. The role (DLP) is a good choice, and it does suit him absolutely. But in central midfield and on support duty.

So who should be your DM? Well, in this current squad, Mc Tominay looks like the most logical choice. Role? DM on defend duty, if you ask me. Btw, you need to buy a reliable holding-type midfielder to compensate for Herrera as soon as possible - one that can play both in DM and CM positions. Because if Mc Tominay gets injured - you are immediately in trouble (especially as I don't see Matic in your squad).

Up front,  CF is a great role as such, but the problem is that you need a simple role for the lone striker, simply because you already have enough creators behind and around him. If you play Rashford as the lone striker, there are 3 potential roles that would suit him - AF, poacher or PF on attack. And in this particular system, I would most likely go with the PF on attack duty. 

So, after these changes, the setup would look like this:

PFat

IWsu                              Wsu

MEZat    DLPsu

DMde

IWBde     CDst   CDco     FBat

GKde

Is it okay now, or maybe more tweaks are needed? Let's see...

AML as an IW on support looks good - both in terms of player selection (Martial) and role partnerships (compatible with both the mezzala on attack and PF on attack). So it can remain 

What about the opposite flank? I would also play Lingard as a standard winger in AMR, but on attack duty, both in order to add more penetration up front and because a winger on attack generally links up well with a lone striker on attack. However, this means that Wan-Bissaka's duty should be dropped to support - and WB on support would be the most appropriate choice in this system. FB on support is okay as well, but I fear that could be a bit too conservative, given that there already is a holding midfield role in MCR (DLP on support), so you need a role that can provide more width in the advanced stage of your attacks by naturally overlapping the midfield. 

When it comes to your CB pair, I would avoid a stopper duty in a system where you have a DM. Therefore, either both on defend, or one on defend and the other on cover (but on the latter case, do not use the offside trap). 

So, this would be my preferred setup for these 11 guys:

PFat

IWsu                                      Wat

MEZat    DLPsu

DMde

IWBde    CDde    CDde/co    WBsu

GKde

In terms of mentality and instructions... not sure that this Utd team is good enough to execute the counter-press safely. Therefore, I would either entirely remove the CPress, or use it only occasionally. 

In defense, a combination of higher DL and standard LOE looks okay to me. When it comes to the Prevent short GKD... can remain, although I would prefer a split block instead. That would increase chances of counter-attack (besides being defensively safer).

In possession... nothing particularly wrong, but I prefer to start with fewer instructions and then gradually add more if needed. My only starting in-possession TIs would be play out of defence and shorter passing. I would then carefully watch the match and see if I need to up the tempo a bit (to higher), or allow more freedom of creativity and movement in the attacking third (be more expressive), or maybe ask for a bit more patience up front if I notice players attempting too many speculative shots, passes or crosses and thus giving away possession cheaply (work ball into box). However, do not employ all these potential tweaks all at once, but one by one (until you see the team play as you want them to).

I hope this will be helpful. Any questions and/or suggestions are more than welcome 

 

[Linus_Shepard]

First of all, big thanks for your help. So a few questions\comments lets start in defense. I want my fullback to get forward specialy on the left side where the iw cuts inside. So if its to risky perhaps a diffrent role for the left central midfield?

Why no stopper and DM? the stopper role I have considerd removing as he leaves to much space behind and the cover partner dosent seem to keen on actualy covering.

The DM Defend vs DLP Defend, I would prefer the DM Defend but cant actually adjust his pressure as I want to, its set to standar and cant be interacted with. (want him to press less to sit and shield defense) I dislike playmakers in general, (ball magnets) but find that the DLP D suits defensivly but is an issue offensivly when players seems to think passing to him is more importent then attacking thus forcing us to start all over. Btw Matic is in the squad just to slow and with dvels on the ball trait he keeps loosing it to pressure, Fred is far from perfect but I always start with transfer window closed (far more fun) the role is certenly not intended for him long term.

Dont want a DLP su, (se my dislike for playmakers) the Bwm Su, I've chosen as I like to pressure and he is great at it, on support and giving him freedom to go forward he ofen ends up providing support in the box aswell.

Winger on attack seems nice going forward but will he track back?

PF up front, I have never used one before, how does he behave when we have the ball?

Upploaded my 4-2-3-1 now changed from 4-1-1-3-1 AS. Its well completly identical actually, well almost to my 4-1-2-3. And its my primery, only use the 4-1-2-3, when I feel I need extra man in midfield.

As its almost the same can I assume the same suggestions? I still want to retain my own style\philosefy if you will, but certenly appriciated your input. Have the same issue with static attack thats I assume anyway is what leading to the high crosses.

Anyway a big thanks again to you, and anyone els who might come along and offer advice.

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, Linus_Shepard said:

I want my fullback to get forward specialy on the left side where the iw cuts inside. So if its to risky perhaps a diffrent role for the left central midfield?

Having a (naturally) overlapping fullback on the flank where the other wide player cuts inside is something I also like to do, so your idea is absolutely logical. The only problem is the mezzala. Therefore, you are absolutely right - if you want your LB bombing forward and overlapping the IW, then you need a different role in MCL. You can swap the CM roles around, so that DLPsu (Fred) moves to the MCL, and the mezzala (Pogba) to MCR. Which in turn would require your RB (Bissaka) to be more restrained. In that case, this is how I would set it up:

PFat

IWsu                                  Wat

DLPsu    MEZsu

DMde

FBat       CB      CB       IWBde/su

GK

Now, Pogba is still a mezzala, albeit on support duty, since he has the attacking winger in front of him. Bissaka is now an IWB who is supposed to both cover for the more attack-minded teammates and offer more support to the central midfield area during attacking build-ups. You can try him on both defend and support duties, depending on how much risk you are willing to take (or your players can handle). If you choose the defend duty, you can also experiment with the Overlap right TI in order to create more dynamic interplay on that side. Bear also in mind that Bissaka (like Shaw on the left) likes to get forward often, which means that the Overlap right may not be necessary even if you play him on defend duty. 

7 hours ago, Linus_Shepard said:

Why no stopper and DM?

Because when you have a holding DM, he is supposed to protect the area in front of the defense, so there is no need for a CB to step forward in an urgent fashion and thus risk compromising your defensive shape. And you yourself have already said this: 

7 hours ago, Linus_Shepard said:

the stopper role I have considerd removing as he leaves to much space behind

 

7 hours ago, Linus_Shepard said:

The DM Defend vs DLP Defend, I would prefer the DM Defend but cant actually adjust his pressure as I want to, its set to standar and cant be interacted with. (want him to press less to sit and shield defense)

In that case, go with the anchorman (and there is no need to change his pressing urgency, because the role is already designed so as to be very defense-minded and not overly aggressive when pressing). 

 

7 hours ago, Linus_Shepard said:

I dislike playmakers in general, (ball magnets) but find that the DLP D suits defensivly but is an issue offensivly when players seems to think passing to him is more importent then attacking thus forcing us to start all over

You don't have to use a PM if you don't want (although DLP on support duty is more progressive than one on defend, plus the role suits Fred pretty nicely). If you want to remove a playmaker from the entire setup, you can go with this midfield combo:

CAR(Fred)       MEZsu(Pogba)

Ade(Tominay)

7 hours ago, Linus_Shepard said:

Dont want a DLP su, (se my dislike for playmakers) the Bwm Su, I've chosen as I like to pressure and he is great at it, on support and giving him freedom to go forward he ofen ends up providing support in the box aswell.

I would use a BWM, but only in central midfield and on support duty (like you). But I would always look to avoid him as a lone DM (because I want my DM to be a real holder, not only nominally). However, the problem in your current squad only Tominay suits the role attributes-wise. So if you play Tominay as a BWMsu in a CM, then you need to play Fred as the holding DM, but he is not defensively reliable enough to perform such a role appropriately. In that case, Matic would be the most logical option for the DM spot (and Fred would basically serve as a backup for Pogba in the mezzala role). But you seem to want to avoid Matic: 

Quote

Matic is in the squad just to slow and with dvels on the ball trait he keeps loosing it to pressure

 

7 hours ago, Linus_Shepard said:

Winger on attack seems nice going forward but will he track back?

A player like Lingard will be willing to help defensively, although less so on attack duty than on support. But there are roles behind him that serve to provide defensive protection. You always need to think in riks vs. reward terms (a combination of roles and duties that offers both sufficient defensive cover and attacking bite/penetration). 

 

7 hours ago, Linus_Shepard said:

PF up front, I have never used one before, how does he behave when we have the ball?

I use this role pretty much. It's a simple striker role, somewhere between a DLF and AF. His playing style is more similar to AF, but his positioning is closer to DLF (I like to describe the PF on attack as a "deep-ish advanced forward). And his attacking movement is slightly more central than AF (PF keeps it more simple than AF).

I'll come back later to respond to the rest of your post.

[Experienced Defender]

Okay, let's continue... 

9 hours ago, Linus_Shepard said:

 

9 hours ago, Linus_Shepard said:

Upploaded my 4-2-3-1 now changed from 4-1-1-3-1 AS. Its well completly identical actually, well almost to my 4-1-2-3. And its my primery, only use the 4-1-2-3, when I feel I need extra man in midfield

Honestly, I would prefer the 4123 over 4231, especially for this current Utd side. 4231 is generally a tricky system to set up, because you need not only to be careful with roles and duties but you also need the right players - especially important are the 2 CMs (the backbone of any 4231, and therefore both CMs need to be as defensively reliable as capable of supporting your attacks). 

Not only in your 4231, but in any, I would avoid a BWM in central midfield (on either duty), because of its inherently aggressive manner of defending. I use a BWM only if I have a holding DM behind. 

But an even bigger problem is that both your FBs are on attack duty. I don't play both FBs on attack duty even in a 4123 wide, which is a lot more balanced and defensively stable system, let alone 4231.

Speaking specifically of your 4231 setup, it looks better suited to counter-attacking than possession-based football (which is absolutely okay if that's what you want). Having said that, I am primarily referring to your AMC/striker combo - AMat & CFat. 

[Linus_Shepard]

Again thanks for help. Isent a IWB and Overlap a contradiction? it very much go against the role description. 

So made some changes for now, think I will start with this and adjust as needed. Perhaps change the defenders role, so the cover is on the left?

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Linus_Shepard said:

Isent a IWB and Overlap a contradiction? it very much go against the role description

No, it's not a contradiction. Because the purpose of the Overlap instruction in this particular case (setup) is not to achieve actual overlaps (although they can occasionally happen), but to encourage more dynamic interplay on that side by making the IWB and his winger play closer to each other (because overlap/underlap slightly increases the mentality of the FB/WB and also slightly reduces that of the wide forward/wide midfielder). And also to add more variety to the players' movement in attack. That's a tactical trick actually  

 

1 hour ago, Linus_Shepard said:

This tactic looks better, and I think you can start with it and then make small tweaks as you see fit. The base is good. Btw, take care to assign the roles to appropriate players.

 

1 hour ago, Linus_Shepard said:

Perhaps change the defenders role, so the cover is on the left?

If you want to use a cover-duty CB, then - yes 

[Linus_Shepard]

17 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

No, it's not a contradiction. Because the purpose of the Overlap instruction in this particular case (setup) is not to achieve actual overlaps (although they can occasionally happen), but to encourage more dynamic interplay on that side by making the IWB and his winger play closer to each other (because overlap/underlap slightly increases the mentality of the FB/WB and also slightly reduces that of the wide forward/wide midfielder). And also to add more variety to the players' movement in attack. That's a tactical trick actually 

Hmmz, intresting, will try it out, might also give the PF role a go aswell, will leave most of pi at default aswell and adjust when I see their behavior and play. Thank you again for all your help, starting up tomorrow, will be intresting, cheers!!