How to get more shots and goals from your Raumdeuter

[bleventozturk]

First of all, I am still playing FM15, and I know that in FM16 and FM17 the distribution of positions and goals has shifted heavily to low crosses and tap ins that follow.  The last two versions are unplayable for me, but that's another subject.

So, my questions is to all those FM tactics experts out there: How do you make your Raumdeuters more productive? I remember seeing posts during FM15 times where people had Raumdeuters scoring tons of goals. My Raumdeuters are very efficient in scoring goals, but the problem is that they very seldom get into those positions. 

A little bacground: I play with a perfectly symmetric 4-1-2-3

GK

WB(s) - DC(d) - DC(d) - WB(s)

DLP(d)

CM(s) - CM(s)

RMD(a) - DLF(S) - RMD(a)

Previously I was using two BBM at the center mid, but the raumdeuters were barely touching the ball in that formation. After I switched to 2 CM(s) at least they are not that isolated, and getting 30-40 passes each per game. But still, the problem is, in most of my matches, I average 15-20 shots, and the two Raumdeuters typically get 1-2 shots each. Most of the shots are taken by the DLF(s), and the rest by my center midfielders. I did a lot of observation, and saw that the Raumdeuters always keep some defenders busy, and that opens up space at the center, where my DLF and the CM's find plenty of open shots, and I keep winning games, had tremendous success with this tactic. 

Still, I am just trying to switch things around a little bit, because my tactic simply does not work as I had it envisioned. I want my lone striker to drop deep, and play more like advanced playmaker there, and I want my Raumdeuters to make runs behind the defense without the ball, and be fed with through balls. What really happens though, is that the DLF does drop deep, always gets the ball, and does play through balls to the Raumdeuters (and gets plenty of key passes in the stats sheet that way), but the Raumdeuters most of the time just refuse to dribble the ball a bit and shoot it. Instead, they just dwell on the ball, let the defenders catch them and tackle them, or they drift a little wide and wait for the DLF to make a run into the box, and they become the assister rather than the scorer. They are not even trying to score.

This may still be limited information for you guys, but I was wondering what is wrong in this picture. Like I said, my Raumdeuters are still playing good and getting great ratings, but I just want to have a more evenly distributed shot count between my striker and Raumdeuters. Any thoughts?

 

 

[Cleon]

In the set up above I don't really see who supplies them the ball? I don't see any real balance in the tactic. The most important part of goal scoring tend to be supply and support, without those getting to the specific player you want to score, he  can't really be a regular scorer.

No matter how you set the CM's up they wont play like AP's, if you want them to act like AP's just use AP's. Why use something else that isn't a AP and trying to set them up like an AP? It doesn't make much sense to me.

It also sounds to me like you want IF's and not Raumdeuter's from the things you describe.

[bleventozturk]

Thanks. The ball is supplied to them, plenty of times. My DLF does that (if you read the description in the game for DLF, that's what they are supposed to do anyway). They just refuse to dribble towards the goal and take a shot. It almost looks like they have the 'look for pass first' PPM, but they don't.

And no I don't want IF's, I really hate how they just always get the ball and cut inside while dribbling forever. 

Also, I use two RMD. When one of them gets the ball at the corner of the box, and instead of making use of the empty space in front of them and wait, it is always the DLF sprinting from 20 yards behing into the box, while the other RMD just watches from the other corner. It just looks so unreal. The way they act is so far from real football lol. Isn't RMD meant to be a role for wing forwards to exploit space? Maybe I misunderstand the whole concept. 

Nevertheless, this is the thing that bothers me most about FM ME's - everything looks so mechanical. In real life, if you are a wing forward, and you see that 10 yard space in front of you from the corner of the box towards the penalty spot, and your teammate is at the other corner looking for somebody to make that run, no matter what your 'role' is, you just make that run to receive the ball, instead of waiting for the DLF to make a 20 yard run.

 

 

[bleventozturk]

Oh, and I score plenty  

When I was using BBM's, I was scoring around 2-2.5 per game, and only conceeding 0.5-0.7 per game. After I switched to using CM(s), the scoring skyrocketed. Currently I am scoring around 3.5 per game, and averaging more than 20 shots per game. So, creating chances and scoring goals is not an issue at all. Only the distribution is bothering me, I specifically said that.

 

[Cleon]

The ball might be supplied to them but not in a threatening goalscoring way, don't be so dismissive or I can't help you. It's a waste of both of our times if you come back with excuses for the things mentioned. 

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and I want my Raumdeuters to make runs behind the defense without the ball, and be fed with through balls

The pure definition of this is that of an inside forward. A Raumdeuter doesn't really make runs in behind the defence with the ball as such. Instead they roam finding space, most of the time in front of the defence.

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Also, I use two RMD. When one of them gets the ball at the corner of the box, and instead of making use of the empty space in front of them and wait, it is always the DLF sprinting from 20 yards behing into the box, while the other RMD just watches from the other corner.

I find it hard to believe he just watches and does nothing at all. If this is what he is doing then its 100% down to some kind of setting you use because I often use two Raumdeuters and they never do this.

Quote

Nevertheless, this is the thing that bothers me most about FM ME's - everything looks so mechanical. In real life, if you are a wing forward, and you see that 10 yard space in front of you from the corner of the box towards the penalty spot, and your teammate is at the other corner looking for somebody to make that run, no matter what your 'role' is, you just make that run to receive the ball, instead of waiting for the DLF to make a 20 yard run.

This only happens on the game is a user uses the wrong role, some PI or TI that stops this from happening. Or they're just over stating what really happens.

[Cleon]

8 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

Oh, and I score plenty  

When I was using BBM's, I was scoring around 2-2.5 per game, and only conceeding 0.5-0.7 per game. After I switched to using CM(s), the scoring skyrocketed. Currently I am scoring around 3.5 per game, and averaging more than 20 shots per game. So, creating chances and scoring goals is not an issue at all. Only the distribution is bothering me, I specifically said that.

 

Never said you didn't score, stop being so defensive. You asked for help. How many you score, the average ratings and assist all mean nothing if its not the player you want to score. Which must be the case or you wouldn't have started the topic. There's really no need to be so sensitive/defensive. I'm trying to help you sort the issue but looks like I'm wasting my time. Good luck anyway hope you find the help from someone else. Enjoy your evening

[bleventozturk]

I am not trying to be dismissive, I appreciate you taking your time trying to help me understand what is happening. 

However, some of your comments are contradicting what you have been quoting. Maybe it is typo? For example, as you quoted, I said I want my RMD's to make runs behind the defense without the ball, and you say if I want them to make runs with the ball I should use IF's. 

RMD's role being trying to find space in front of defense, now this explains it somewhat. Thanks for this information. So, how do you get your RMD's to score more then? If it is not too much trouble, can you briefly describe your formation with two RMD's and player roles, like I did in the original post? I'm really curious. FWIW, I remember seeing a post 2 years ago, from somebody who was using the same formation that I am using. The only difference was (in terms of formation and roles), he was using 1 RMD and 1 IF(a), and a BWM(s) at the center mid. His RMD was his main goal scorer, and that was the first time I wanted to try RMD role. I clearly remember he had a DLF(s) and no APM.

 

 

[bleventozturk]

Lol, ok fine  I think you are the one being too sensitive. I was enjoying and appreciating you trying to troubleshoot what was wrong in my setup. Obviously you know a lot more than I do about the mechanics of ME, but that shouldn't mean I will accept everything you say as a gospel. And whatever you say that does not match what I see on my screen, is probably because you don't have all the information you need from my setup anyway. But, whatever, enjoy your evening too sir

 

[Cleon]

It’s a typo yes, should have said without the ball, but either way the point remains. For runs in behind then the IF is the only real option that does it constant. That’s not to say the Raum doesn’t ever do it though, just nowhere near as frequent.

im pretty sure the person you are remembering is me from two years ago, I can’t recall many people posting about scoring Raums before. However I did, he scored something like 112 goals in 130 games.

If you want the Raum to be the main scorer then he needs support and supply in dangerous areas. While you might score a lot currently it’s not the style you want to play. So what is do is focus on the support than the Raum gets above all else. As I can’t see the wingbacks offering that much support. The wingbacks and the CM’s because they’re on support duties will always be trying to catch up with play rather than up side and along it initially.

The DLF is probably very central to how you play and making those 20 yard runs because he will be the highest central player to begin with. 

This is why I said balance in my very first reply. That doesn’t mean you can’t be successful or aren’t having success. It’s just means there’s no variety to your play. Which there isn’t for the Raums to be involved.

in the set up I use two Raums with I use a midfield of AP attack, CM support and a defensive midfield. There’s no real need to use a deep playmaker when you want the wide players to be the main scorer. The support and supply comes from the middle, wih support from the wingbacks. But I only have one wingback on attack, I don’t have them both on support and that’s too cautious. 

I’ve not played FM17 for a while but I think after 4 seasons my Raums have about 80 goals a season between them.

[Cleon]

25 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

Lol, ok fine  I think you are the one being too sensitive. I was enjoying and appreciating you trying to troubleshoot what was wrong in my setup. Obviously you know a lot more than I do about the mechanics of ME, but that shouldn't mean I will accept everything you say as a gospel. And whatever you say that does not match what I see on my screen, is probably because you don't have all the information you need from my setup anyway. But, whatever, enjoy your evening too sir

 

What you see doesn’t match what you want either, or you wouldn’t have created this thread 😂😂

I don’t need to know any information to know why the Raum doesn’t score and how to make them score btw because your current set up isn’t set up for them to be scores. So your current style/settings and results don’t need to enter the equation 😊

Im only messing with this reply though it’s tongue in cheek the beginning of it.

You are right though, if it was something else and related to something else I would  maybe need more info. But because this is about a specific role and how to make them score more, I don’t really need to know much about the current set up other than what you posted

[bleventozturk]

3 hours ago, Cleon said:

 

If you want the Raum to be the main scorer then he needs support and supply in dangerous areas. While you might score a lot currently it’s not the style you want to play. So what is do is focus on the support than the Raum gets above all else. As I can’t see the wingbacks offering that much support. The wingbacks and the CM’s because they’re on support duties will always be trying to catch up with play rather than up side and along it initially.

 

This is true and mostly matching what I see on the ME. It's just when I pick a 'support' role, I expect to see exactly that: Support. But as you are saying, my wingbacks start supporting the attack too late most of the time, after they catch up with the attack. So, I guess I have to put them in 'attack' role then? But something I read million times on these boards (and I can also confirm it from my games) is that when you have 2 players on the side, if you put both of them in attack role, that wing gets exposed so much on the defensive side, and I like not conceding goals a whole lot more than scoring goals   How about the complete wing back role on support?

Changing the center mid's roles to CM(s) from BBM really helped though in terms of rescuing the RMD's from getting isolated.  From 20-25 passes per game they are now up to 40-45 per game on average.Those two at the center pass the ball back and forth with RMD's a lot, and they establish a good enough link between the defensive midfield zone and the attackers.  

Still, I just don't understand why my RMD's take so fewer shots than my central midfielders. The moment my CM's or the DLF find space in front of them, they dribble a bit and then take a shot. If anything, they do it too much for my taste. RMD's on the contrary always wait for somebody to get into the box, and that somebody is always the DLF, and not the RMD approaching from the other side. That's not how that role is described in the game, or maybe I am misinterpreting it. But it is an 'attack' role at the end, and I expect them to be more aggressive than the CM(s) at least to go for the goal.

Anyway, if I understand correctly, I just need to put one of my wing backs and a center mid into 'attack' role to provide adequate support for my RMD's to get into scoring positions, since that how it worked for you? 

Can you also tell me what kind of goals did the RMD's score in that team of yours? Did they find space behind the opponent defense, or were you working the ball into the box until they were finding a clear shot? I know it was two years ago, but maybe you remember?

FWIW, I tried the IF(a) role for one match, and it was a disaster. I hate that role. They keep dribbling diagonally all match long. As a conceptual issue, it bothers me the most that the roles in the ME are not flexible enough to make it easier for the user to create a preferred style of attack or defense. I like how the IF(a) attacks aggressively into the box, and I can't make them to dribble less. Why not