The all-action Trequarista and the defensive Raumdeuter

[ajsr1982]

Afternoon everyone.

I'm currently toying around with trying to implement a recreation of an incarnation of Benitez's Liverpool, and I've hit a couple of stumbling blocks. I think most of it is pretty self-explanatory, but I'd like to hear thoughts on a couple of roles in particular.

The clue is in the title, somewhat, but let me explain further.

The all-action Trequarista

There shouldn't be any surprises here. This is the Gerrard character. One of the things that Benitez did with Gerrard was to push him further up the pitch and have him playing 'from the right' and cutting inside. The results were excellent, with Gerrard scoring a career high 23 goals that season. He was later moved infield, with Dirk Kuyt taking up the wide right berth.

Clearly not satisfied with Gerrard's positional and defensive discipline, Benitez had him playing just behind the team's main striker, whether that was Crouch, Bellamy, Torres, or, erm, Voronin. The question is, how to replicate this in FM. We have various options in the AMC slot, but the main characteristics I'm looking for are:

- Someone who is the pivotal player of the team in the final third.

- Someone willing to get beyond the striker to finish moves off.

- Someone who will pop up everywhere, whilst not completely forsaking the defensive side of the game.

I currently have the role filled with a Treq. I'm not sure this fulfils the second and third of the conditions above, but it's closest to how Gerrard operated between 2007 and 2009. He was given license to ease off on the defensive side to find pockets of space when the team was defending, in order to do maximum damage in a quick transition. Alonso to Gerrard to Torres in just a few seconds was a key feature of that team.

However, the Treq role is typically reserved for someone who is a little bit languid. I want somone who scores as many goals as he creates (from open play), around 10-15 of each, ideally. Is the Treq going to get into the box regularly enough to achieve this? What are my other options?

The Enganche, a more static version of the Treq, has to be eliminated.

The second striker may have been a decent option with a Crouch-type player ahead of him, but I'm looking more towards the Torres/Gerrard axis. The SS isn't someone who is going to demand the ball all the time.

The AM would probably provide the penetration I'm after, perhaps with a PI to play more risky passes and dribble more. Not sure he's that pivotal player though. Can I get the ball to him often enough?

The Advanced Playmaker probably isn't going to score the goals I'm looking for. Or is he?

How much does the player's personality and attributes have a bearing on how he plays the role. I know it'll make a difference, but how much of a difference? Do they supplement the role? Or will positional instructions restrict him?

My last option is to drop him deeper into midfield as a Roaming Playmaker. Is that going to provide the penetration I'm after? Those runs from deep. I don't want to isolate my centre forward.

The defensive Raumdeuter

The other one I'm struggling with. Dirk. For all his technical flaws, Dirk was a master at finding space at the back post, scoring the ugliest goal you've ever seen. Unless it was a half-volley. A converted striker playing wide right. Keeping things simple, most of the time. Losing the ball when he tried anything more complex. But, with a prodigious work rate.

The attacking side of his game had all the hallmarks of the Raumdeuter. The defensive side of his game all the hallmarks of the Defensive Winger. I'm looking for a mix of the two.

Some sort of customised Wide Midfielder is probably looking the most likely way to replicate this, and I'll probably have to make some compromises.

A WM-S, with the following PIs. What do you think?

- Close down much more

- Get further forward

- Roam from position

- Sit narrower

- Fewer risky passes

- Dribble less

Thanks in advance.

[jeid2000]

Gerrard scored a lot of goals in that period, but was he really bursting past Torres, which was his most effective strike partner, all that often? Not really. He'd burst into the box late more often than he'd break past Torres/others to score. Gerrard dropped deep a lot and never really shied away from the defensive side of the game. He was like an advanced box to box, playmaking midfielder/striker. An Attacking Midfielder with a Support duty definitely covers the dropping deep and helping with the defensive side of the game, with the right PI's and PPM's, you could create the type of Gerrard-esque player. The other option would be to drop him to the midfield line and play him as a Central Midfielder with an Attack duty. That would provide the forward bursts from deep.

The Kuyt role is really hard to replicate I think. I seem to remember Cleon saying that he thought a Wide Target Man perfectly summed him up. I think you're on the right track, but it'll take a few seasons to get that role right, as will the Gerrard role. Start small and build up to it.

Finding the right players will be the hardest part. Getting someone with Kuyt's work rate, energy etc will be a tough task. Might have to retrain someone for that role. Good luck.

[ajsr1982]

Hmmm, I agree with a lot of what you said. He didn't shy away from the defensive side of the game all that often, but it was clear that he had instructions to find space when the other team was in possession. As for his goals, take a look at the following clip. Of the goals that aren't set pieces, they are more or less evenly divided between long range goals, goals where he breaks into the box, and goals where he gets beyond the forward(s) to get through one-on-one with the keeper. His role at that time really wasn't that far off a second striker; it's just that we associate him with being an all-action midfielder.

In any case, the problem I have with a non-playmaker role is that Gerrard really was the focus of that team. Everything went through him, after it had gone through Alonso, that is. I'm not convinced I'll be able to get him on the ball as much as I'd like. Only way is to try, I suppose.

[vincenzo143]

A large number of those goals I feel he created for himself from midfield, rather than playing off of the striker. He gets beyond the forward, but it's usually due to him picking it up deeper and driving at pace.

[ajsr1982]

A large number of those goals I feel he created for himself from midfield, rather than playing off of the striker. He gets beyond the forward, but it's usually due to him picking it up deeper and driving at pace.

Yes, quite possibly. But he's picking it up in a very advanced position (relative to the rest of the team), akin to that of a second striker, rather than an advanced midfielder. He's operating in the space Torres has created by dragging defenders away in a lot of those situations.

[vincenzo143]

Yes, quite possibly. But he's picking it up in a very advanced position (relative to the rest of the team), akin to that of a second striker, rather than an advanced midfielder. He's operating in the space Torres has created by dragging defenders away in a lot of those situations.

I'll definitely not argue that. My point was mainly in the sense that the passes he received usually didn't come directly from Torres, but I agree with your point in general about him playing more like a 2nd striker and that he's in the space that Torres is creating.

[jeid2000]

Hmmm, I agree with a lot of what you said. He didn't shy away from the defensive side of the game all that often, but it was clear that he had instructions to find space when the other team was in possession. As for his goals, take a look at the following clip. Of the goals that aren't set pieces, they are more or less evenly divided between long range goals, goals where he breaks into the box, and goals where he gets beyond the forward(s) to get through one-on-one with the keeper. His role at that time really wasn't that far off a second striker; it's just that we associate him with being an all-action midfielder.

In any case, the problem I have with a non-playmaker role is that Gerrard really was the focus of that team. Everything went through him, after it had gone through Alonso, that is. I'm not convinced I'll be able to get him on the ball as much as I'd like. Only way is to try, I suppose.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. I think you need to pick a couple of those things to implement into the game and see how it progresses. You should try him on AMC/S with some PI's like, Roam from Position, Move into Channels and more risky passes. See how that goes and then add some others. It will depend on how the rest of your team is setup though.

I watched a couple of games from the 08/09 season, mainly the Real Madrid and Man Utd games and it looked a lot more like a 4411 or 451 at times than it did a deep 4231. I made a bit of progress with it, but finding the right guys was a problem. Used Swansea as my test and we finished 7th. Drew a lot of games, but there was elements of that team that worked really well, especially the forward. But others that I just couldn't get right. Mainly the Alonso and Gerrard roles.