Atarin
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Posts posted by Atarin
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We can't really tell you what's wrong without seeing your tactic and knowing a bit more about your team.
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6 hours ago, Gianni Brera said:
Very interesting topic!
I am myself struggling lately with how I want to set up my defensive bloc and how I want the team to act when in posession. I can't help but notice that, when virtually all my players are on a support duty, I tend to have the most rock-solid defensive low blocks (can't help it, I always drop back in a low block) I could ever ask for. Really love it when the wingers and attackers drop behind the ball-line and the opponent is literally facing a 10-man defence with a compactness that would make Arrigo Sacchi proud (even though he would curse the retreating movement and lack of pressing).
The downside is... putting most or all players on a support duty. I simply do not like how they play and transition that way. The transition is, of course, that of pass-and-move football. Ideally, I put all or most of my forwards and wingers on Attack duties, letting them bomb forward and verticalize the game, but I want them to fold into a compact block when the attack is over. Setting players on Attack duties however (especially forwards), means they will generally stay a bit forward to receive the long ball. I understand this is entirely logical, but, how can I combine having a more ''structured'' shape in attack - so to speak - with a more ''fluid'' defense as in making all players withdraw into a compact shape?
Yes, I accept that the latter will inevitably mean I can't launch it long immediately after recovering the ball, but I just want my attackers to stretch the game vertically when they can, and drop back when they have to. Or an attacking midfielder to run into the box, and drop back into central midfield when defending.
That's the beauty of football tactics, its all about these compromises. I love this dilemma. I'm like you, I love a compact low block with the wingers protecting their fullbacks and the forwards dropping in to protect central midfield. The question is always how are we going to transition into attack. The way I think about it is that we have two factors. (1) Space and (2) Movement. In this system its pretty clear where the space is, its going to be behind the opposition defence. That leaves us with the problem of exploiting that space with movement. The way I look at it is that the ball travels faster that the man so we need to have the pass coming from an area that will give the runner a fair chance of getting on the end of it. If that's the case a ball from the back would fit the bill and a curled ball from out wide (a cross) would as well because a curled ball takes longer to get to its destination than a straight ball. Through balls from midfield or a striker partner will be trickier because unless you have someone with an excellent weight of pass then you're going to see a lot of over-hit passes going straight through to the opposition goalkeeper.
My solution is to use W(s) on at least one flank or a WM(s) with Cross More Often and Cross from Deeper PI's activated. If my fullbacks have decent crossing I would also instruct them to Cross More Often and Cross from Deeper.
My current tactic is a 4-4-2 low block with a W(s) on one side, a W(a) on the other, a Poacher up front and a TM(a) alongside him. The way this works out is that we sit deep, invite the opposition on and then when we win the ball we tend to get it to either my W(s) who crosses the ball behind the opposition for my strikers to rush onto, out to my W(a) who has broken into space on the left, my Poacher who is looking to run in on goal or my TM(a) who is looking to collect the ball deep in the opposition third. Whichever way it goes we tend to have options. To add to this pressure I also have a BBM breaking from central midfield.
Of course we sacrifice our compactness to hit teams in this way but it seems to be so successful that I feel the risk is worthwhile. When the attacking move break down early its actually pretty easy for everyone to get back into shape. The only problem is if our attack breaks down late, then we could be caught on the counter but, again, its about risk and reward. If you want to score then at some point you need to risk conceding. Its about how to balance that risk.
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The video is interesting but I think it misses out defensive depth. If the long ball team's forward line lacks pace then the simplest solution is to push up as high as you can. That way even if the CF wins the first ball and even if the smaller striker wins the second ball they're miles from goal and as long as you have decent pace at the back you should be able to recover. Another strategy involving the high defensive line is simply pushing up in order to pull a centre forward back because he doesn't want to be caught offside when the ball is punted forward. Its a really great strategy because to some extent the CF is powerless to decide where he receives the ball, the defensive team do that by placing their defensive line. There are many ways to play long ball football and many ways to counter it.
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Thanks for the feedback. Basically the AI is doing to me what we have all learned to do to the AI. When I'm sitting deep, trying to restrict space and slow the game down the AI is camping in my third, circulating the ball, stretching my defence, pulling us from side to side and eventually creating a spare man or an overload at one of the posts and scoring. I'm looking for general principles to apply to shut up shop and protect the score. As I said I'm not looking for tactic specific help, more general principles. I don't have the players to leave space in behind (we're too slow and lacking in reactions).
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Addendum: I'm looking for general advice rather than tactic specific but just in case anyone asks... I'm playing a 4-1-2-3/4-5-1/4-3-3 on Defensive Mentality. The philosophy is definitely one of containment whilst hitting teams on the break, and until the last ten minutes its working like a charm. I've had the same issue with 4-4-2 though, so I think the problem is more a general issue rather than specific to any particular tactic of mine.
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Does anyone have any advice about how to see out games? I feel my teams are too passive when trying to protect the lead. The opposition throw men forward and go very wide and we get pulled all over the place before eventually leaving a gap which the opposition exploit. I already try to hit teams on the break with Pass Into Space and Slightly More Direct Passing but in terms of actually protecting our goal I'm clearly not doing as well as I could be doing.
Thanks.
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There used to be an option to offer trials till the end of pre-season, sometime in the last couple of versions of the game it disappeared and now you can only offer a maximum of 4 weeks. I've had to let a whole bunch of trialists leave so I can offer them a 4 week trial again. Its a bit inconvenient.
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2 minutes ago, rouflaquettes31 said:
Ok, but, in this example (Getafe defensive shape), what is the kind of defense?
Players are close each other, but in same time don't concede any space in the wide area.
That is narrow defensive shape?
Okay, I see what you're saying. That's an example of the team shuttling across rather than parking in the central space. Truth be told, I'm not sure how to recreate that exactly.
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1 hour ago, rouflaquettes31 said:
Thank you very much for this instructive post. Some simple ideas are are forgotten sometimes...
Nevertheless, there is one point that is not clear for me : the width.
For a narrow width, the game description is : "concede space in wide areas".
But, if I want to play narrow and defend on wide areas (like, for example, Sacchi 4-4-2), is it possible?
Thank you!
There are two widths. Attacking and defending.
A narrow defensive width means defending in a more compact shape around your penalty area. A wide defensive width basically means that your fullbacks are encouraged to stay wide even in the defensive phase in order to engage the opposition wingers. The Sacchi system (of which I'm no expert) is I imagine not disimilar to Ranieri's tactic at Leicester of forcing teams out wide only to then ambush them there, win the ball and start of a counter. I would say, that in that case its less about playing with a Wide defensive width and more about player roles, duties, PI's and OI's. It wasn't Simpson and Fuchs doing the ambushing it was Kante+Albrighton+Drinkwater.
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9 hours ago, DjangoSrna said:
Can't see a link, is there a download?
A download...for what?
He's offering some tips, not a tactic.
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Excellent stuff. One slight quibble would be your suggestion that Get Stuck In should be paired with a low block. For me a more aggressive ball winning strategy would make more sense with a high block because a failure to deal with an opposition attack/break could be devastating. A high block is a pretty do-or-die strategy. If you're operating with a low block and you Get Stuck In there's always a danger that you give away freekicks in shooting distance or even worse give away a penalty.
Personally, if I was using a low block I'd want my players choosing to keep their shape rather than selling themselves, diving in and leaving us exposed or, as I said, gifting the opposition a chance to shoot from a set-piece.
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I'm looking forward to this.
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I can't see Cantona as a CF(a) at all. Complete Forwards on attack are pretty mobile and Cantona certainly wasn't that. Was he not just an audaciously talented DLF(s), CF(s) or maybe even a Treq. McClair was more of an SS before becoming more of an AM(s) in his later days as his legs went.
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Typically route one teams played with a very high line. This helped to compress the side into quite a compact unit meaning flick ons and knock downs had a far better chance of finding a team mate.
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10 minutes ago, SmileFaceGamer said:
Can someone tell me if either Denton or Fortunè are a psychopath?
In real definitely not. Denton is actually rather timid for a target man imho.
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Allerdyce is a strange one. The assumption would be that, similar to Pulis, he played with a defensive backline but this isn't strictly true. As far as I can remember everywhere he's been he's had at least one very attacking fullback. At Bolton he had Ricardo Gardner on the left who played very aggressively whilst Nicky Hunt would be more conservative on the right. At Blackburn I think he had one of the Olsen twins bombing forward on the left with someone more conservative on the right. At West Ham he had Cresswell bombing on from the left with O'Brien playing more conservatively on the right. At Sunderland had Van Arnholt bombing down the left and on the right he rotated DeAndre Yedlin as an equally attacking right back with Billy Jones who was more defensive. He tried a number of different combos at Palace. At Everton he had Baines attacking down the left and Martina giving more defensive cover on the right.
In midfield he mostly mirrored Pulis. Sometimes two DMs with an attacking CM at others two CMs with an attacking AM. Out wide he began by using AMRs and AMLs (During his spell at Bolton) but over time graduated to pretty consistently using RMs and LMs. Up front he pretty consistently used a big strong type unless he just didn't have one. For example at Sunderland he opted for Defoe and had his wingers try to hit balls low and quick behind the defence for Defoe to nip onto.
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5 hours ago, kpsia518 said:
expected to see this in new ME :
Not strictly on topic but can I just say that that is the best camera angle you will ever see for demonstrating to someone what football IS. Its all about the creation and the restriction of space. I remember having a conversation with someone years ago who didn't get football at all. They couldn't understand why so much of the game was spent knocking it about in the middle third. It looked utterly pointless and boring to them. I tried to explain but I didn't have a visual aid. If I had that conversation now I would just show them this. Beautiful.
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@johnnyyakuza78 you've brought a tear to my eye with that tactic. God bless hoof ball.
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I definitely agree that Shape is nebulous. If you want to keep it super, super simple then think of it like this...
Shape tells your players whether to prioritise their Duty or the team Mentality.
So on a Fluid setting team Mentality comes first. With a Defensive-Fluid combination your Attack duties are going to be a lot more conservative, they'll play a lot more like Support duties. It will also effect your support players in attacking positions (AMR/AMC/AML/ST) who will be a bit more team-orientated.
A structured setting tells your players that their Duty comes first, so with an Defensive-Structured combination your Attack duties' job is get forward early and attack space. Your Support duties in attacking positions (AMR/AMC/AML/ST) will also focus on supporting the Attack duties over and above being part of a disciplined defensive unit.
A Flexible shape means that your players are trusted to use their own judgement (their intelligence and decision making) and balance the team's mentality with their own Duty.
So in short the more fluid the setting the more Attack duties play like Support duties, the more restrained attacking Support players are and the more team orientated all other Support players and Defend duties will behave like regular Support duties. A more Structured team shape will see Attack duties and attacking Support duties on their toes ready to attack, regular Support duties will be a bit more restrained will stay back and do their job.
I hope that helps.
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Bump. All links are down. Can LL Reupload?
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I don't know whether this is the right place to ask this question but I'll go ahead anyway and if there's a better subforum then a mod can move it there...
I have an idea for a career thread. Is it okay to blend narrative elements of the FMStories thread?
My idea involves following my character's career with genuine analysis but maybe using the a story telling style.
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13 minutes ago, ttiems said:
I did the dafuge challenge twice, and in the lower leagues I alwys use the simpelest tactics. Key factors for me are: don't use the harder roles (no lower league team plays with a Raumdeuter or a false 9). Your players simply can't do that. I usually make sure I have a solid defence, either 4 defenders + 2 defensive midfielders or 5 defenders. My focus on getting players is mostly on getting great attacking players, so I need 4 good attacking players and a block of 6 strong players. But most important, no hard roles.
I tend to keep it very simple with Roles as well. Not to say that you can't use a Ramdeuter if you have a winger with good finishing, composure and off the ball but it just ruins the game for me. I only use Roles that would be familiar to an amateur or semi-professional footballer. It just feels more authentic and also enables me to have a much better grasp of what's going on, on the pitch.
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Without seeing your squad its very difficult to say. I'm most comfortable with 4-4-2's and I only play LLM. A lot depends on your players and whether you're going to bring lots of new ones or not. If you're going to make do with what you've got then you need to be looking at several things. The best places to start, for me, are are my centre backs painfully slow. If they are then I need to consider playing on a lower Mentality, making one or both DCB's or using the TI Lower Defensive Line. Personally I tend to go the simplest route and just have a lower mentality. Then I look at my forwards. How can I give them the best chance of scoring goals. If you're very, very lucky you'll have pace and lots of it. If so then you can set up your side to win the ball and transition quickly with balls over the top or into space for them to run onto. That's my preferred method. If you're unlucky and you don't have pacey strikers then you're going to need midfielders that can build play up. Players with Off The Ball, Vision and Passing. So generally look at how you give your CB's the best chance of keeping a clean sheet and then look at your forwards and think about the most effective way of getting them on the score sheet.
If you're an awful side then you might want to hunker down and play with men behind the ball and hope you can score a few from set-pieces and counter-attacks. If you're very good for your level then you might want to set up as you would if you were in a much higher league and try to out-football your opponents, and if you're just average then really zero in on your strengths. Is it creative midfielders, pacey forwards or something else.
If all else fails I would suggest seeing the first couple of months at your club as very much an experimental phase. I often go very basic to begin with. 4-4-2. Standard, Flexible. No Tis, no PIs and no OIs. Normal keeper, normal centre backs, supporting fullbacks, supporting wingers, one holder in central midfield (either a CM(d) or a BWM(d)) and one who gets involved in the attacking transition (this can be nearly anything - DLP(s), CM(s), AP(s).etc It entirely depends on what kind of players you have. So, for me, the first couple of months would just be about getting to know my players and what they're capable of. Trying out different options and tinkering with little things like whether my wide midfielder might be better as WM(s), a W(s) or even a WP(s). Or just fine tuning my striker roles. Maybe a DLF-AF combo or a maybe a DF-P combo or whatever. The fun is in the experimentation. As long as you don't go crazy with Attack Duties you should have a fairly decent defensive shape and so you'll at least be difficult to beat.
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7 hours ago, MNassri said:
Seriously dumb question:
Is there a need to worry about Teamwork for a DLP in the DM strata? I'm wondering because if it's low, what is he going to do other than pass the ball, especially if he's on a Defend duty? Is there a significant difference in contribution between someone with a 7 and someone with a 15? Would he just not do much at all?
Teamwork covers a range of behaviours mostly dealing with a player breaking from their own "responsibilities" and assisting others in theirs. For some players, in some systems not bothering to help others is fine. For example a poacher might be expected to stay on the opposition defenders like glue and rely almost entirely on their OTB and Anticipation. There have been players in the past that were extremely effective without having very good Teamwork - a couple that come to mind are Glenn Hoddle and Matt Le Tissier. The first was a DM/CM Playmaker and the second a Treq. They rarely supported their team mates and instead were left to focus entirely on their job of dictating play, creating chances and scoring goals.
Its all a matter of balance. If you have a player who is so good that you simply must build the side around them then you definitely can but you need to make sure that you surround them with players that can (a) protect them, support them and cover for them and (b) give them people that can feed off of them. There's no point having a genius creator if there isn't anyone to pass to in dangerous areas.
So, balance is the key. Support, cover and options.
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Hold shape examples IRL?
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
I don't think many teams use it as a general principle because it is renders counters less likely and who wants that?
Under normal circumstances your team will counter when a certain number of opposition players are ahead of the ball. An opposition attack has broken down and you find yourself able to hit them. Using the Counter instruction just makes your team trigger a counter under slightly less favourable conditions. You are telling your team to not wait for perfect countering conditions, but to counter as a strategy. If your selected HOLD SHAPE then you're going in the other direction. You're telling your team not to counter unless the situation is very favourable. So, less counters.
A real life is difficult because very few teams use HOLD SHAPE all of the time. It tends to be situational. The best example I can think of would be to think of a team like Crystal Palace. Highly defensive. When they win the ball in favourable countering conditions you don't see everyone bar the centre backs charging up the field. The holding midfielders generally stay put. At least one fullback tends to stay put. What you see is the attacking unit and a support player getting forward. What happens if they score? You don't even see that any more. The forward might go chancing after lost causes but the rest of the team stay compact because they don't want to get caught out themselves.
So, you use HOLD SHAPE if you only want to counter when the conditions are extremely good, say from an opposition corner or something and they've sent everyone up.
Hope that helps.