dannyfc
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Posts posted by dannyfc
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52 minutes ago, anagain said:
That is simply not true. I have seen plenty of matches that do not experience continual balls over the top and one on ones. In my experience the issue is a result of a high line.
But how do you combat the opposition being continually exposed to the ball of the top? Should high-lines be simply eradicated despite being a legitimate strategy in real life? Even setting to a patient and short passing game won't prevent your own players from attempting them, and it's counter-intuitive regardless if the objective is to win.
I play a deep , low block and don't experience many problems with long-balls. My issue is seeing my own defenders exploit it with inch perfect 50 yard passes despite not having the attributes to do so, and my midfield being constantly bypassed. I'm winning games but it's just utterly tedious to watch. I don't actually mind direct football, I just want to feel I've earnt it through building a physically dominant side and capitalising on opportunist balls.
It's easy to exploit the game and win, but that doesn't make it enjoyable to play. I want to see tactical and individual variety so I know the decisions I make are influencing the match engine in a realistic manner. Without that it isn't a football simulation.
Rest of the game outside the ME is superb which makes it all the more frustrating. Can't wait to get stuck into the training and squad development once the engine flaws are ironed out
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1 hour ago, warlock said:
If I can have one wish for Christmas... most of the problems with the ME could be fixed with one change: reduce the accuracy of long balls over the top. Any team should be able to play that way, but only the very best players in the world should be able to drop a 60-yard pass at the feet of an on-rushing striker or AM. The problem right now is that most of those long balls are ridiculously accurate. If more of them were realistically inaccurate there'd be an immediate reduction in one-on-one chances, and - hopefully - the AI would recognise the futility of playing that way.
100%.
I don't want long-balls to suddenly become useless, but like you said their effectiveness should be linked to both the passer and defenders attributes.
I want to play with opportunist punts into the channels that fast strikers can capitalise on. It's just seeing my Vanarama CB be able to ping an immaculate 60 yard ball into feet time and time again just feels cheap.
That comes on to another point - i feel the game lacks any real physicality. Players are reluctant to play any ball that might result in a 50:50 or even 70:30 against the defender. If I have a strong striker, let me play into feet and watch the defenders bounce off him, he doesn't need to offload with a haphazard shot as soon as one is within 10 yards.
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2 hours ago, Rayban_DK said:
How much does the individual player attributes actually matter?
It seems that one-on-ones are a big problem this year, and even Messi can't seem to convert them enough.
Have anyone run experiments with, let's say, taking a fast striker who scored a lot in the Vanarama (sp?) league and put him as a striker on a top Premiership team? Would his fast pace be enough to make him do good enough over the entirety of a season, or would he totally bomb? How is his conversion rate on 1-1's compared to the regular strikers? How is his rating compared to them? What about his shot-ratio, is it much lower than the rest of the attacking unit?
I'd do it myself if a season didn't take ages on my computer, lol.
Anticipation is the key stat for strikers - it's essentially the likelihood of getting on the end of a cross or loose ball ahead of the defender. A fast Vanarama striker just wouldn't get the same number of chances.
Would be interested to see if anyone hasn't gotten good returns from a slow/technical player in the attacking third.
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31 minutes ago, TheVerySpecialOne said:
I don't know, I try to adapt, people complaining about long balls over the top, yeah, they are too accurate, but tactics are playing their role as well. I was playing a gegenpress tactic and long balls were a problem, not every team can pull it off. It worked but with mixed results. I don't know if AI was beginning to figure it out but I had had more and more problems with it. I tried a attacking deep line lower line of engagement tactic last game and won 3-1. Zero problems with balls over the top, AI 0 ccc, they scored from the free kick. Even though I had less possession my team was more dangerous and had more chances. Btw, I am playing with Portsmouth and I am at the top of the table currently 15 points in front of Ipswich.
You can adapt your tactics, but it doesn't disguise the flaws against the AI.
I've always set-up with a low block / direct balls in to the channel. It's the football I want to play, but I want to feel like I've earnt it.
All my Conference National CBs can ping those perfect 50 yard balls. Both cross-field, or over the top to striker who brings it down perfectly. It just feels cheap - I want to see them attempted but I also expect them to run loose, for the striker to miscontrol, to see some shanked into the row Z.
That's the issue, when every team can play the same way with varying degrees of effectiveness, it feels pointless progressing to just see more of the same every game. If I find a top CM with good passing and vision, I want get him involved and not consistently bypassed. If I have a strong targetman with good feet, I want to ping balls into his feet and for other players to play off him.
For me - the main enjoyment in FM is being forced to adapt your team to the strengths of your best players. Or else bring in the type of players who can play the football you want. Right now I just feel the better players are more effective or prolific at the same actions, as opposed to making different decisions or intelligent play. In older games you could instantly identify a player with good vision on the pitch, while now they're just another cog in the machine.
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55 minutes ago, Rashidi said:Nope you can do it on standard defensive line and even with a low line of engagement
Erm, you can even play short passing on very attacking mentality and still pass your way to goal. It does work, maybe you are doing something wrong.
I will just link a short video which is like 40 secs long that shows me playing 90 minutes on very attacking mentality, with a standard defensive line and my players are obeying my instructions.
But if you have semi pro CBs that can ping perfect 50 yard defence splitting passes, why bother playing short? I have a chap with 7 for the passing and vision racking 3 or 4 key passes every game.
Too many posters hear misinterpret complaints of the ME as a cry for tactical help. I'm winning games, my team are doing well, it just feels cheap and exploitive.
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5 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:
Good to know it's still a thing then.
For what its worth, I'm playing in the Conference and have two loanees on 20% wage contribution.
Had a fair few clubs asking for 100% or high %, but seems realistic tbh. In early FMs it was far too easy to get numerous top PL youths for effectively free and romp up the leagues.
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I agree the argument of shots/possession should = good result is flawed, as happens every year from a gut reaction from frustration.
That said, it could easily be compounded by the lack of final third movement and be a valid complaint.
I'm not a big fan of pure statistical analysists used to determine if the game is realistic or not. One on ones are a good example where people over rate their conversion rate irl, but it's fair to comment on when it's a clear issue for the majority in context when you're watching.
Same with striker goals, they may be line with real life numbers, but the lack of variety of where they come from is obvious to anyone that watches the ME with comprehensive highlights.
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1 hour ago, herne79 said:
Get your best prospects committed to your club asap. Poaching was always possible but it's been enhanced for FM20.
Pretty realistic tbf.
I don't even know why lower tier clubs bother with youth academies anymore, they cost millions to maintain yet any decent prospect can get poached for nominal fees. City were able to pick up Sancho from Watford for £60k.
My advice would be to invest in first team training facilities to focus developing the 18 yos the Premier League clubs release for free.
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When did the first post release land in previous games. It's usually mid December then end of March right?
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40 minutes ago, Icy said:
- Midfielders not taking risk on through balls and instead passing to the open man in the wing. Feels like they need a player to be in an open space of at least 5 meters around him to decide to pass to him.
I'm convinced this is it. SI are right that generally you opt for players in space, but not always.
Defenders aren't acidic, they can be shrugged off, they can be turned, you can move the ball quickly before they engage. Playing the ball into a tight space will always be inherently risky, but it's still a viable option and one that usually contributes to a key chance if executed well in an advanced area.
For me, one of the clearest signs of a player excelling is his ability to operate in tight spaces without being disposessed. You just don't see this at all in FM, rather than carry it forward they punt an immaculate 50 yard ball into the space, then recycle back to the edge of the area.
Even with the likes of Messi, who irl can regularly seemingly slip through a crowd of 3 or 4 players with a drop of the shoulder and a thousand micro touches. Instead in FM, his prowess is defined by how well he can anticipate a cross, or how accurate his long-ranged finish is.
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45 minutes ago, Declan Cahill said:
But long balls are the most common tactic used IRL.
It is essentially the most direct/efficient way of scoring. Can't score a goal if your keeper and defense play keep ball at the back, less likely to get caught in possession too at the back.
Admittedly the higher up the leagues you go you have better players, but you'll struggle to find any league in the world which doesn't have at least 5-6 teams who play 'route one'
Route one or just direct? I'd argue no teams in the PL play Route One anymore ala John Beck or Graham Taylor. Burnley are Direct Counter Attack for instance.
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1 hour ago, darthlemon said:
Disappointed with this year's match engine.
I appreciate that a lot of hard work will have gone into trying to improve it, but this year feels like a direct continuation of last year's version, which wasn't particularly enjoyable or satisfying to play with.
The vast majority of the goals I see (scored and conceded) are long range shots or set pieces (or often a combination of the two). My first season ended with my centre mid (Klich) being far and away my top goalscorer. 95% of the good chances that are created either get blasted at the keeper or blasted into the side netting from an absolutely impossible angle.
The game itself is fun and addictive to play, but toiling through matches with this engine is hard work and takes away from the game.
I fell away from playing the game after last year's winter update as it became apparent that the match engine would suffer for the rest of FM19 - the hope was that FM20 would be able to break free of these issues.
So I'm not really sure what else to say - sorry if this comes across as negative or overly critical of people's work. Just want to enjoy the game we've all loved for a long time.
Agreed.
To be fair I feel like Sigames have acknowledged these issues - its probably just a case of not being able to solve them without ruining the game balance so instead opting for an 'adequate' and stable code. For the majority that play on Key highlights, it's good enough. Only in Comprehensive do you see the repeated patterns of play that make it tedious and a little sterile.
Hopefully there's work in the background and potentially a patch for Jan window that addresses central play, chance conversion, long-shots, penalties etc. Generally that tends to be the definitive version in previous years.
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8 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:
Seen comments about a lack of individual brilliance, how players never score from 1 on 1s etc.
What happens in my very first game after reading those comments, against this seasons bogey team?
Not being funny but he's literally just pegging it into acres of space.
Brilliance for me is playing a deft one touch pass. Or wriggling out of a tight space with tricky footwork while surrounded by defenders. Or a killer first touch. Or a well executed give or go. Or a targetman receiving the ball with his back to goal , then swiveling to shoot in one motion. Small decisive moments that catch the defence unawares.
The video you posted is the type of goal you see at U'9 youth level when there's a kid faster/stronger than the rest.
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Might just start playing my midfield playmaker at wing-back.
OK right I'll stop, made my point. I'm glad people are enjoying the game, i'll wait to the full release and have another go - if not fingers crossed for next year i guess.
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1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:Sometimes I think people expect far too much from this game. If you play the game constantly analysing whether this part or that part is EXACTLY like real life and are constantly looking out for things wrong with it, you're never going to have a good time with it. Yeah, leave feedback and report bugs, but leave the stressing about it to the devs and enjoy it for what it is. The best football management game on the planet. Bar none.
I get you but i disagree.
There was more variety of play in earlier FMs, and it was exciting to visually see the impact a new signing with high calibre attributes would have on your game. (i.e. finishing, vision, tackling)
The problem then was the game was easily exploitable. Space was a non-issue and weak but quick strikers could ghost through defences unopposed.
Since FM 2013 Si have done a fantastic job of replicating team shape and cohesion. If you constrict the space available the opposition team will struggle just like in real life, which is great and more realistic.
But as mentioned above, it's at the cost of individuality and moments of rare brilliance. I don't see a significant difference between top tier teams and my conference north side. Both are reluctant to attempt anything remotely risky if the space is limited, hence why those floated through balls and long-shots are ramped up to compensate. The only visual difference is the conversion rate and effectiveness of each.
Artificial intelligence is incredibly complex, by far and way the hardest thing for a developer to replicate. I don't doubt Sigames are aware of what the game lacks and strive to implement it. That said, currently there's fundamental elements of football missing. I don't expect to see the game replicated 1:1, but to enjoy it I do need to see those basic phases of football you see regularly attempted at every level. Again, I don't want my tier 8 players to be constantly threading deft passes with incredible success rate. But I want to see it attempted, and I want to see that effectiveness and understanding between players increase the more they play together the further up the pyramid you progress.
For me that's what FM is all about; creating an identity then slowly realising it through training and acquisition of the right players to execute. Progressing from aimless football full of mistakes to eventually seeing it all come together. (at which point ironically you become bored)
Right now, I just feel like I'm watching more or less the same few phases of play again and again. Long ball, offside, cross field ball, or diagonal to the far post where a player is lurking unopposed. And it's been like that for at least 3 iterations now and just feels stale to me.
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The ironic thing is those dinked diagonals or cross field balls to the far post are more difficult to pull of in real life than the basic 5 yard forward pass we're lacking.
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54 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:
Exactly. The first option there should be Pepe. This is still a ball that is played diagonal across the field, just shorter distance. ME is heavily leaning on these diagonal balls, at a cost of missing obvious short through balls into the space in front of the forwards.
This is it.
It's a lovely assist, but is still essentially exploiting the space in a wide position. Nothing wrong with that, but still needs to more 1-2s, lay offs, risky passes attempted in tight corridors.
Just feels like if a defender is within a couple yards of the attacker, any potential play is completely ignored to avoid any physical confrontation.
I don't want a high success rate, just let me see if it attempted if I've instructed them to. If a player has poor technique and can't retain possession then so be it, at least then I can adapt or bring in players that can.
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It's better but still seeing too many accurate long balls and not enough penetration/movement in the final third.
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Same complaints as the majority regarding ME. Its a shame as rest of the game is fantastic. I know it's a beta but my concern is these were evident flaws last year, so I doubt they're able to significantly change much in two weeks.
Long balls far too prevalent and accurate. I'm in the Conference, yet my CBs consistently ping inch perfect 60 yard passes, both over the defence and cross field.
This is tempered by poor finishing and the prevalence of offsides, otherwise every game would be a cricket score.
Long shots are still over powered. Had six 30 yard efforts fly in from about a dozen games, all from players with poor attributes in that area.
Still a serious lack of penetration from central midfield areas. As soon as the space becomes congested, players lock up and instantly look for a safe option outwide or behind. You rarely see any take ons, or slide passes, or forward square balls into feet to then play off. Feels like the only creative outlets is within your own half or out wide.
I think what FM does well is represent a teams control of space, but at the cost of any individuality or variance in play.
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Slightly later release date is good IMO. Selfish part of me is annoyed, but rational part reckons there's match engine improvements they're ironing out before release.
Thought all the features last year were excellent additions but ultimately let-down by being it being somewhat of a crossing simulator on the pitch. Not a pop at SI as I genuinely believe it's still one of the most sophisticated emulation of artificial intelligence in modern games. I don't think people recognise how hard it is to code, particularly in a field which has barely progressed at all in other games.
Still - it definitely lacks the fun element the older games used to. Very rarely witness any individual flair or inspiration from players. Hence why it bogs down to attritional warfare of grinding opponents down the flanks, or by bombarding them with long-shots. I'm not opposed to direct or 'unsexy' football, it's actually my preference, but I'd prefer to see more tactical solutions being effective if applied correctly. I know forum gurus will point to their saves with fasionable work-arounds , but it doesn't disprove that Gengenpress and extreme wing-play was always the most effective route to success.
Also hope the number of offsides has been toned down. I guess just generally I would like to see less repetition in highlights and more variation in phases of play. Fingers crossed.
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1 hour ago, RobertPage said:
Without this being 100% fact, it follows the pattern of previous years
These have been the release dates for the last few previous games
16.2.0 December 16th, 16.3.0 March 4th,
17.2.0 December 15th, 17.3.0 March 1st,
18.2.0 December 14th, 18.3.0 March 1st,
19.2.0 December 11th.
Next official release will definitely be start of March to give time for all the January movements, but it would be great if they could release beta updates for the ME a little earlier like they did for the previous patch.
Also, didn't there used to be 3 patches a year before 2015? Might have been few years before that but I'm sure that 'version 3' was always the final one.
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2 hours ago, RobertPage said:
Newcastle here, haven not actually bid nothing for Tom Cleverley. They've actually proposed a swap deal (player for player). Its incredible how little effort has gone into the News section. Not only is it just one line but it also gives incorrect information. Honestly, this is a pathetic effort and is just plain lazy on SI's behalf. Also, genuine question, how do i even find out who the player is that they've offered?
Such a snarkey post for a minor complaint. Why would Crystal Palace have any idea of what player Newcastle have offered Watford in an exchange deal?
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How do you guys avoid your leading strikers getting isolated?
I've tried using a TM(S) with an Advanced Striker, but when the ball breaks he's miles away from him down the field.
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1 hour ago, rdbayly said:
In the entire 90 minutes, Sheff Wed (a team far superior to me and chasing the game) received 3 (three) passes inside my penalty area. No.20 (Adam Reach) Saw a huge amount of the ball on the left, but did absolutely nothing with it; apart from endlessly play it backwards and sideways. In fact they had a huge amount of pointless and passive possession in central areas, but where are the forward penetrative passes to players making aggressive runs against a shaky tiring backline?
I'm far from a tactical expert and this is only a single game. There are countless more examples from my current save where the above trends are present. They can be summarised thus:
- The AI is poor at adapting to your threats, even when they are obvious
- As a result, overloading wide areas leads to an incredible amount of dangerous crosses
- There is often a lack of penetrative football in central areas (e.g. aggressive lateral / diagonal runs, through balls, one-twos, lay-offs and flicks)
- As a result, if you defend the flanks properly, the AI quickly runs out of ideas
Good analysis - I've stopped playing after I cottoned on the game's are simply a case of preventing the cross to nullify the opponent.
I don't understand how this can be still be the case after 3 years. SI acknowledged it was an issue back in FM 17, but claimed the effectiveness couldn't be nerfed in a patch as it would imbalance the game. 2 years on and we're still at the same point, which suggests there's something underlying that isn't easily solvable.
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One Long Ball, Two Long Balls, Three Long Balls, Four ...
in Football Manager General Discussion
Posted
Ah OK fair enough, fully agree with that.
I have full faith that Sigames are aware and doing everything they can to rectify the issue. None of us here are qualified enough to demand a quick fix, so appreciate that.
However, I do take exception to posts that try and minimise legitimate concerns. I understand that the majority of the player base don't care about the intricacies for the match engine, and SI could easily ignore it and still continue to make successful profit game every year so I'm glad they are actively engaged.
That said I'm still an avid but disappointed fan that strongly feels the ME has been significantly weaker in the last two years. Not everyone will agree but it rankles when the same posters will try to deflect what are legitimate concerns.
For me, anyone that is interested tactics and football knows the current ME isn't a decent simulation of football. Best on the market yeah, but still deeply flawed. Ironically I feel the most vocal critics are potentially those that have most enjoyed previous iterations, and are less able to ignore the imperfections and just enjoy it for the game it is.
And I feel those of us that want that addressed get continually batted away as sore losers, or not understanding tactics, or being too picky. Not by Sigames, but this weird contingent of online defenders that simply aren't willing to accept negative feedback without nitpicking.
That last bit isn't directed at you, I think I just misinterpreted your original post.