dannyfc
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Posts posted by dannyfc
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18 hours ago, marcusnovius said:
in a world of advance AI, Football Manager is getting left behind.
Any examples?
All the other attempts to simulate football from competitors have failed miserably in the AI department; Premier Manager, LMA MANAGER, FIFA MANAGER, Championship Manager reboot
Similarly I can't think of any game in other genres that has significantly better AI than what we've had in previous decades.
Other than initial example which I agree should be a relatively straight forward fix, I think you're underestimating how difficult is to emulate. Anything involving player interaction is so abstract an AI is never going to replicate it to a satisfying degree. The same problem exists in the diplomacy parts of strategy games.
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23 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:
Bad luck continues.
Splash all my budget on a striker, scores on his debut and i win my first game in 3 months.
3 huge games back to back against relegation rivals over a week.
Striker gets the flu.
Honestly mate it sounds like a fun save, the best ones are where you struggle and get the satisfaction when finally turning it around.
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Also - is it fair to say mental and physical attributes should be more malleable and develop quicker than technical attributes?
Players rarely drastically improve their technique once they've become professionals. Wenger famously mentioned 14 years as the cut-off for this. Training will sharpen those skills, but has any adult ever improved their first touch to a significant degree? Are there any examples of players lacking dribbling ability that suddenly became elite? I don't think so - all the best have already peaked by their teens in those areas. It's just consistency that improves.
In contrast, from 16 to 21 a player can transform themselves physically through hardwork and we should expect to see big increases in strength and jumping reach. Again, it should plateau very quickly after that but should still allow some degree of change if training intensity is focused on it. Less so for pace, but maybe strength and balance can be developed into the late 20s.
Obviously mentally a player will continue to improve throughout their career, and probably peak well into their 30s if they make it that far.
I'm not saying there isn't a bug as clearly SI have recognised and addressed that - but equally from a realism perspective I don't think huge swings in technical ability should be expected.
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7 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:
I think I want more of that in all areas of the pitch, I reported it last year. It does happen but very very rarely and most runs you see are around or away from from opposition players. I'm sure that's why wingbacks are wracking up the dribbles because they start deeper and wide so it's easier for them to make runs counted as dribbles
Same issues as lack of central play I feel - it's risk aversion and phobia of congested areas.
Naturally football is mostly placed to the spaces, but the game changing moments are the take-ons or slipped through balls that have a low probability of success. I'd love for players to attempt these more even if it means being disposed more often.
Or at the very least, have the tactical option to instruct players on the level of risk they should take. High flair players should do this automatically regardless of the risk/benefit of attempting.
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I didn't play FM 22 so unsure if this is a new feature or was introduced last year.
When asking an agent about a player's availability- you're given the option to express your level of interest. Based on that level of interest, the agent will reveal the player's contract demands at which point you can either Agree, Contest, or Stall.
1) What are the implications of expressing the highest level of interest? It reveals the most information, so what's drawback or alternatively the incentive to express less interest?
2) Depending on the 'Agree/Context/Stall' response, what is the consequence for any subsequent contract negotiation screen?
Thanks
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19 minutes ago, chucklehead said:
Hiya mate, cheers for the reply. I'm playing non-league, no one has agents down here!
Sorry - I completely misread your post.
Yes fully agree, after an initial conversation with the player it would be good to be able to ask them to go away and think about it before making an official offer.
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38 minutes ago, chucklehead said:
Really disappointed that there's been a change to approaching free agents to get an idea of their demands. On FM22 and previous versions, you used to be able to approach a player to see what their playing time and desired promises were, and even see their initial demand for wages, without any penalty. You could move on with no consequence. Now, once you approach a player, you're locked in: you either give them a contract or you walk away, stopping you from approaching them again.
I could be wrong but I'm not experiencing this. Have you tried stalling once the agent tells you their player's wage demands? I've approached a few and for whatever reason haven't been locked into whatever wage they quoted.
It could do with more explanation though. I'm unclear on what the consequence is of to 'Agree', 'Contest', or 'Stall' after being informed by the agent. Assume this impacts your chances of signing the player, potentially, but how?
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23 minutes ago, Dotsworthy said:
This year, I am going to avoid reading anything on the tactics forum, and do some sort of attributeless/stat challenge with no star ratings.
I'm intrigued by this - but I still think there ideally needs to be some layer of attribute rating to properly assess a player. Just more ambiguous than we have currently so there's less certainty on how good a player definitively is so you're less likely to completely write-off a number of players on day one.
There needs to be something less detailed that replicates the 'eye-test', as performance stats alone can never give a full picture of a players ability or weaknesses. In real life you can observe and identify a good player with potential even if his underlying stats aren't impressive.
Obvious solution to that would be watching the match engine footage to make an appraisal - but that just seems far too intensive currently. In the future I would love to see scouts provide video reels of prospective targets, not just their highlights but maybe a compilation of all their specific actions from a sample of games.
Or even deeper allow us to observe training drills in the engine to assess using our own eyes. Finishing drills, set-piece drills, attack vs defence, 6 v 6, speed drills, weight progression, rondos. I realise this is far too niche for most of the userbase who prefer quicker progression, but for me would be an absolute dream. Getting more involvement in the the day to day running of the club would increase immersion immeasurably.
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1 minute ago, dannysheard said:
For me, off the top off my head, I'd be happy if there was a setting (or mod) that added +1 (or +2) onto every opponent player's attributes (and maybe + 5/10 onto condition) when I played them as a quick-fix to compensate for all the stuff I can do better than the AI.
Most players never need to touch that setting.
I think some of the third-party save game editors (FMRTE/FM Scout) can do this relatively easily. There's mass edit functions that allow you to boost all a squad's players to 100% condition and happiness. You can also edit attributes, but not sure how easy that is to do on mass.
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1 hour ago, Pafnus said:
Hello all.. in fm what do you think about players morale and its affects? Do you think is the morale important as well as players tecniqe ?
Yes - definitely reduced (or improved) performances based on the individual players happiness. This is one of the best ways to get a low ability team to exceed expectations long-term.
If i had to guess how it's implemented, I would assume morale has some sort of % modifier on the attributes in-game. For example, Very Poor morale may reduce key attributes by -10% to their base - so essentially handicapping their ability because of it.
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1 hour ago, dannysheard said:
The whole argument against difficulty levels for me is like certain kids at school arguing we don't need different maths sets as they already find the basic maths hard enough.
That's exactly why you have different maths sets.
How would you propose a difficulty level is implemented? AI teams get a boost to their attributes? More money? Better Newgens?
All those solutions sounds gimmicky to me and would ruin the immersion. The unfortunate truth is AI just isn't anywhere near good enough yet to challenge a human in abstract concepts. That isn't a SIGames issue, that's an industry wide constraint hence why most games opt for giving the AI an unfair advantage to remedy. The only alternative is to handicap yourself, use a team with small budgets, restrictions on players you can buy, mods to disguise the data you can see.
The top team problem is exacerbated by the fact the game cannot replicate all the real life challenges managers experience. Liverpool have a squad of elite talent who are completely suited to their style of play. Naturally all a player needs to do to secede is simply implement that style of football and maintain baseline morale in players so they perform their best. That's never going to be a difficult challenge for anyone other than complete beginners.
The question then is how do you accurately replicate the real life struggles of management without making the game boring?This season Liverpool are struggling due to the number of injuries, low morale, and inexplicable drops in key players form. All of which are difficult to implement in the game without frustrating the player. Injuries and inconsistent form are largely out of the players hands, so increasing this leads to complaints about the game "cheating" or being "FM'd". I think SIGames have previously said injury frequency is lower than real life for this reason.
Morale management and squad unity is more interesting as to a certain extent its the biggest factor to real life success. Inspiring players and keeping the dressing room on side will ultimately make or break the success of a manager's reign. This is the area with the most scope for improvement in the series, but given this is largely dependent on human interactions the game will always struggle to replicate this in a satisfying way.The player interactions just feel robotic and somewhat arbitrary, to the point I more or less ignore the function entirely as you're likely to create more issues than it's worth. Similarly with team talks and in-game shouts. But again without huge advancements in AI, I have no idea on what the game can do to address this in and entertaining way. Would love to know what other people think would be an improvement, and if there are any other game examples that could be co-opted. How can you simulate charisma? Maybe introduce more RPG elements? Not sure.
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9 hours ago, GunmaN1905 said:I hate to be that guy, but it's just mind-boggling how years upon years every single ME struggles with more or less the same thing...pinpoint passes over the defense. Long range pinpoint passes.
This full post nails it. Insane passing accuracy and perfect control when receiving balls at pace completely undermine the rest of the engine.
Posted my frustrations last year in regards to pass completion as the increased inaccuracies was actually touted as a headline feature in the launch video.
Lower league football especially should have more individual technical mistakes. Like you said, defenders desperately clearing their lines under pressure should mostly result in giving away possession. Unless, that defender has especially high composure and passing ability.
It's a major tactical component that's missing, both from a squad building and team setup perspective. There's little incentive to bring in players with those coveted ball playing attributes, and you're not forced to adapt your play if you don't have them.
It's not pretty but I'd love to see a ME that can replicate proper scrappy League Two football. Rushed clearances, botched first touches, having to plan to make use of hitting the channels. It would make the game feel so more rewarding when you are finally able to get technically competent players and as a result see the progression in style of play.
Pass completion should be in the 60-70% at this level, not 80-95%.
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18 minutes ago, 2feet said:
Many teams in real life create lots of great chances but fail to convert.
Look at Liverpool vs Forest only this afternoon.
Much harder when the defending team camps behind the ball
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6 minutes ago, Obaaa said:
Because the game generates so many one on ones. Conversion rate has to be low to prevent games being 6-6 every game.
I feel like i've read this same comment chain for 13 years now hah.
Would love to spend a day behind the scenes at SIGames to understand how they manipulate all the match engine calculations under the hood to get the outcome they want.
It would be a good wake up call as while I know rationally that AI is incredibly complicated to program, in my very simple head I still think of it as them just tweaking sliders labelled 'ONE ON ONE CONVERSION RATE' and 'FREQUENCY OF LONG-BALLS'
But yes, lack of central play, tendency to go wide, inability to deal with balls over the top, and poor 1v1 conversion have all been hallmarks of the series for a number of years now so assume it isn't an easy fix.2 -
3 hours ago, Lempicka said:
Surely, the time and effort creating watches, rings and and other knick-knacks for our manager avatars would have been better spent elsewhere. The stadiums corners are crying out for a bit more variety, but instead - we get a scarf that floats above the managers head.
Also, and I could be wrong, in previous games, couldn't we select the managers tie colour based on the club we were managing (e.g red/Liverpool, blue/Chelsea)? This option appears to have disappeared.
I'm all for cosmetic improvement to enhance the match-day experience, but a watch and earring we're never going to really see outside of the manager set-up screen is not what I expected.Agree with the sentiment - but just worth mentioning the match club colours options is still there. Go into the colour hex chart and it's a tickbox near the top.
But yeah there's so much opportunity to expand the aesthetics of the game. I don't mean anything relatively intensive, simplistic graphics are fine, but it should be straight forward enough to allow customization of the stadiums. It's what the older competitors used to do quite well, as in Premier Manager or the LMA Manager.
I know SI have always been reluctant to delve too much into that as it veers away from the job a manager is involed in, however feel like little cosmetic touches to build uniqueness to a club go a long away in building attachment or immersion in the fictional world.
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2 hours ago, Rashidi said:
It’s still early days long term progression is one thing that SI will be focused on addressing in the next 2 weeks.
Is that official or just speculation?
Doesn't feel like the type of thing that can be easily rebalanced within two weeks imo, but would be pleasantly surprised if true. Not that it's especially poor at the moment, just that I wouldn't expect it to be massively different at release unless they've specifically stated this.
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40 minutes ago, unitedstian said:
Lisandro Martinez has a jumping reach of 13....
In FM, jumping reach = maximum height player can jump to rather their actual jumping ability.
Martinez is only 1.75m so even with a good jump he won't be able to reach the same height as players 1.90m+. Based on this 13 feels fair, it's the upper end for someone of his height.
This isn't the only determinant of aerial ability however; bravery, anticipation, determination, and strength all influence how likely they are to win a header.
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30 minutes ago, Brother Ben said:
As much as some people may not like it, this is exactly the kind of question that appears in a press conference in real life. Honestly its some really mundane stuff. You can see why managers like Dyche try to have a little fun with it
If it's not enjoyable, then there's no reason for it to be in the game. There's no way to have fun with it, it's the same binary responses every time.
Any attempt at simulating human interactions in video games is always tedious. AI just isn't there yet and I can't think of any games that implemented it well.
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For reference this is the top 10 pass completion rates in League Two, the average across the league is 69%.....
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4 minutes ago, DarJ said:
I'm not trying to pick on you but ball playing defenders are not called ball playing defenders because they complete a lot of passes, they are called ball playing because they are comfortable with recieving the ball when under pressure and about to launch a through ball for example Virgil van Dijk's diagonal pass to Trent or Salah. Those passes are not easy and they don't come off most of the time because the defending team is able to react to it but in the game the defending team is a bit passive which helps with boosting the number
Yeah I get where you're come from, a progressive pass is different to a sideways pass to the full back.
But even the latter is relatively high risk.... which is why so many defenders will opt to clear to the channel or direct to a targetman.
Completion rates are dependent on context, pressure, location on the pitch. I get it. But no-one can convince me that this justifies 90%+ completion rates for even the most mediocre of defenders. These are Xavi levels of consistency and accuracy.
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8 hours ago, 2feet said:
Top 10 pass completion rates in Premier League this season (August 21 - Feb 22).
Lots of defenders in there.
Who would have thought Lewis Dunk, big old Central Defender for Brighton (near bottom of the league) would have a better pass completion ratio than Declan Rice the young technical midfielder for West Ham (near top of the table)?
That shows 4 CBs in the PL from teams that are known to play possession football with 90%+
The example in FM has every CB, including lower league ones, with similar completion rates.
No one is saying ball players defenders don't exist. But they should be an absolute premium, and are completed devalued if your league two clogger can do the same job.
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3 hours ago, Kingstontom88 said:
This has been widely reported to SI. Passing accuracy percentages are obscenely high. Watching matches it just seems as if pressing isn't as effective as it could be - players are either super composed on the ball or actual engagement with the opposition hits a buffer. I play in 3rd tier in England and my CB's with passing of 5/6 are hitting 95% passing success for the season.
Hopefully rectified for the next iteration.
Regardless of intensity frontline pressing, lower league CBs should not be hitting 90% pass completion. It's why so many opt for going direct as finding the space to progress and execute a short pass is genuinely difficult. Why opt to hit the channels if you can effortlessly progress from back to front without any obstacles? Without players with the necessary attributes? Why pay more for a composed playmaker if you're ball winning clogger has the same level of technique?
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3 hours ago, bahmet said:FFS how is this still not rectified??
Clearly I'm in the minority here but it feels like such a gamebreaking issue to me.
Being able to retain possession is such a fundamental skill differential between teams and leagues, everything starts from how well you can progress the ball from the back so if EVERY player and EVERY team can achieve this then a large part of the tactical and squad building is just completely redundant. You just cannot properly simulate football with statistics like this - it doesn't replicate the real game whatsoever. Anyone that regularly watches games in real life can attest to this.
I can't believe FM 22 can be released with this, and 4 months on still not be addressed. Particularly when more realistic passing accuracy was a headline feature in the gameplay trailer!
Love the series and still clearly going to buy future versions, but I'm so disappointed by this.
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How is passing accuracy? Are lower league CBs still racking up 90%+ completion or has it been toned down?
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*Official* Football Manager 2023 Early Access Beta Feedback Thread
in Football Manager General Discussion
Posted
PA isn't a guarantee, loads of players in the game won't reach their potential due to lack of games, injuries, poor training, low standard of football etc
Would like to see it completely hidden though. In real life potential is more or less based on how good a youth is at their current age.