Sloak
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Posts posted by Sloak
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On 08/02/2022 at 21:18, Mars_Blackmon said:
MLS have been unplayable for long term saves for over a decade. majority because of the AI not handling the salary cap. So no, lol they didn’t get MLS right.
Yea I had a bit of a laugh when I saw that. The MLS becomes literally unplayable after like 5 years as many of the AI teams are made up of grey players due to real player salary growth. The MLS is the worst implemented league in the game.
I do love that we needed to mention that fm is a very “Anglo-Saxon” based game… I’m not quite sure what that even means, but let’s humor him. You mean that a video game about a sport created and popularized in England, created by an English company, has English views? Absolutely outrageous.
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I’ll often watch the first 15-20 minutes fully, and then sim the rest on extended.
I keep my changes mainly to tactics, but I will change a role mid game if I need another player dropping deep or I’m seeing a significant amount of space not being utilized.If things are going well during those 15 minutes, I don’t touch anything. If things aren’t going well, I’ll make a change and then continue to watch the match for a little while to see if that change had any effect.
1. If my style of play is being interrupted, why? If I’m playing a more possession style but I’m not controlling the ball, I’ll look for reasons why we are losing it. Maybe we need more men in midfield, maybe mentalities are too high, or maybe we simply can’t play that style against this team due to their quality of press. Same goes for counter based sides or clubs that are looking to overload Qualitatively rather than Quantitatively. If your style of play is being interrupted, it’s going to be very hard for you to be successful.
2. Maybe my style of play isn’t being interrupted, but I’m still not scoring goals. In this case you’ll need to look at your teams chance creation methods. If you tend to create a decent amount of chances with headers, but you run into a team with two aerially dominant centerbacks, you’re going to have a distinctly bad time. So if I find I’m progressing the ball to where I want it to be, but the end product is lacking, I’ll look to shake up our delivery methods a bit. This includes things like crossing from deep, passing into space, or working the ball into the box. These will change the frequency and type of chance creation and hopefully create chances you’re better equipped to finish off. The cross type setting can be used in some circumstances, but I don’t have a solid feel for it even after a couple thousand hours, and the community seems divided on it as well, so I tend to avoid it.
3. If your defense is the problem, you simply evaluate this in reverse. Why is the opposition playing their style well against you, and what can you do to stop them? Or maybe they aren’t playing well, but they’re finding some high quality chances regardless. How are they creating those?
A lot of it comes down to familiarity with your system and players though. As you play more matches and see more things/the same things more times you’ll get a better feel for what to do and when. Watching the first little while every game will help you get more familiar with your team, and watching after you make the changes will help you see exactly how your changes effect play.
Hope this helped.
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I think it’s as some others have mentioned, bonuses for assists and goals aren’t added into wage calculations, they’re just deducted from the total balance. This could lead to some problems over time as the AI can’t measure your bonuses well and predict for them would be my guess.
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27 minutes ago, Sharkn20 said:
You expect A LOT from a text based game. And you are going to be very disappointed if you don't tamper your expectations.
This is not FIFA, the focus of the game is not on graphics and perfect representation on the field of player atributes, that's not what FM22 is about and I truly hope it never goes the FIFA way. I like the RNG concept of the game a lot more than best players always win.
“Hey guys, have the animations improved at all?”
“You don’t need visuals there’s numbers”
“But I would like to be able to actually see attributes impact on the field”
”You expect a lot. Anyways I hope this game never goes in a direction it’s never shown any indication of going. Also, I hope core game mechanics don’t change, once again, despite no indication of this happening.”
Glad we got his question answered.
It feels better this year than it did last year in my opinion, but it is not quite to the level I’d personally like it to be at yet.
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I think our poster may be asking about where to set his thresholds for attribute coloring. If I’m correct, I tend to set one at average, and then the others about 2-3 away. I find it lets me see what a player’s good at in a glance quite well.
I’m not sure what average is in League 2, but in the Bundesliga for example I have average set at 13 as the comparison screen says most attributes fall around there on average. So <9 is bad, 10-12 is below average, 13-15 is above average, and 15+ is elite. You lose out a little bit when dealing with really high or low class players for your level, but by and large it’s done me well.
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I believe he means more of a 3-4-2-1 set up. 3 defenders, 2 wide attackers flanking a 2 man midfield and 2 AM’s playing in the channels.
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10 hours ago, RealSmokePL said:
You made my day, thank you.
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What I’ve found when building up in a 3-2-5 (or a 3-1-6 actually) is that there’s a really delicate balance in mentality. You have to fit right into the sweet spot where the back 5 isn't just hoofing it to your front line, but they’re brave enough to exploit openings when they open up. The fact that you have good possession with an attacking mentality kind of worries me though as I’ve always found attacking to be too aggressive of a mentality to build in the 3-2-5, but if it works for your players it works. I’d look at that possession and make sure it’s actually serving a purpose though.
The ball moving through the back 5 should create unmarked players, or open space for the front 5 to momentarily drop into. If it’s not, this could be a problem of roles, or a problem of attributes. The roles look good overall to me, though I would change the AMR to something that holds its width. The MCR might also be able to be changed into a B2B or CMs to help fill the gap as the AMR is pushed wider.
However, it may be a problem with your players themselves. Building up like this requires a lot of technical ability out of your defenders and midfield, and I found I often underestimated how important technical ability is. Your defenders are asked to do midfield levels of passing in this system, so you’ll need to have really high quality passers back there to generate the balls over the top and build through the lines the way you’re looking for.
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It doesn’t come out of a budget I believe, it comes from your total balance.
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13 minutes ago, BrightLad5 said:
I wonder why its not there on mine?
Your analysis level might be playing a hand here. It’s new this year so I’m not quite sure how it works, but I know I was missing out on some of the analysis when I did my staff purge. Maybe check once your analysis is at a higher level? Could just be a bug though too.
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19 hours ago, blejdek said:
If you didnt notice, it doesnt mean others didnt also. I had plenty of hand ball penalties. Also the comment above have seen them. So next time try to say you didnt have them and dont make it like a "global" problem.
If you didn’t notice, he’s making a post in a public area to get the opinions of others on the topic. He is quite literally doing what you’re telling him to do. Also, “global problem”…….. he made 1 very calm and collected post, brother.
Like please just look at the tone of what he said, and then your response. Someone is projectiiiiing.
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On 23/09/2021 at 02:59, Baodan said:
Instead of calling out perceived faults on @stopazricky way of training, why not help him by elaborating on how you apparently do it the right way?
Instead of being passive aggressive, why don’t you give him some pointers? Actually, he never asks for pointers on training, he’s raising what he believes is a problem with the game, Baodan showed an example that countered that assumption. If you’d kept your mouth closed for another day you would’ve seen his post about how he in fact doesn’t need help with training. Apparently you didn’t actually read his post.
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On 07/09/2021 at 09:13, rusty217 said:
Why should a defender that made 1 mistake have a much lower rating than a striker that scored 1 goal though? If he made literally just 1 mistake that led to a goal but was otherwise good in a 1-0 loss then that wasn't really a bad game. Slightly below average, maybe, but not bad. I'd argue that in some cases a single mistake can have too big an impact already actually. Penalty misses in particular are pretty harsh. You could have a player that has a solid, although not spectacular, game and has like a 6.9 rating, misses 1 penalty and suddenly he's only got a 6.3. Seems pretty harsh for what was just a single kick.
Lowish ratings are still possible though. I just had Upamecano get a 5.2 in a UCL match vs Chelsea for my Barcelona side. He made 2 mistakes leading to goals and wasn't great. Ansu and Carlos Fati scored 1 goal each and both had a 7.0, they got a goal, but weren't great either. Frenkie de Jong never scored or assisted, but created 2 chances and made 6 key passes, and got a 7.8, he was definitely better than both Fatis. The man of the match was Joao Felix with 1 goal and 1 assist for an 8.8. Overall that's a 3.6 rating difference between best and worst player in a UCL knockout game.
For context the difference according to Sky Sports in the recent City 5-0 Arsenal game was 6. Could be tuned a little for sure, but considering that's a 3-2 on FM and a 5-0 in real life it's not too bad. Although Arsenal's highest rated player (a defender in a 5-0 loss, ironically) got a 7, so it shouldn't just be lower ratings. I very much doubt you'd see a player get a 7 in a 5-0 loss in FM.
While I appreciate that ratings like a 5.2 exist, In my several thousand hours in the game I’ve never seen one, however, that’s besides the point. If Upamecano had an absolute disaster of a game that rates so low, we assume he’d receive a low rating. Yet, on a 1-10 scale, logically, he had a (technically) above average game. A 5.2 should represent a nightmare game, it should represent a perfectly average one. We’d get the same results out of a 1-5 scale.
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23 hours ago, rusty217 said:
It's still easy to spot a good, bad or average game.
6.5 and below = bad
6.6 - 6.9 = average
7.0 - 7.50 = good
7.51 and up = exceptionalAnd the narrow ratings make sense when you consider average level in a league is usually pretty similar. Players aren't often way above or below the average. If they're not good enough then they won't play, if they're too good then they'll be getting a transfer to a better league pretty quick. If you want to see more extreme ratings then play a player that has no business being in that league. You could easily get a very low average rating with a terrible defender/goalie in a top league, likewise you could easily get a very high average with a great player in a poor league. You see it quite often in the Chinese Super League. The local players usually get in the expected range, 6.5-7.3 as you say, but the (good) expensive imported players can get a lot of 8s, 9s and 10s over a season.
While you’re not wrong, that isn’t really an answer to the question.
The narrow ratings don’t really make sense, and don’t display intuitively on a 1-10 scale. A player who committed an error that led to a goal and your striker with 1 goal in the game may are probably within 1 point of each other (6.2/3-7.2-3). On a 1-10 scale that means the difference between conceding a goal and scoring one is 1 letter grade, B->C and B->A respectively.
It also has the problem of average ratings over the course of a season. A bad player will end the season around a 6.5-6.6, whereas good players will end up in the 7.2+ range. My left back whose out of his depth playing at FBd will end the season 6% worse than the leagues best player. Now clearly that’s not true, but what’s the point in having a 10 point system when you condense 90% of match ratings into a 1.5 point window?
Imagine if 5 was the default instead of 6.7 and we simply triple the variance. In this system a player who would’ve previously gotten a 6, now gets a 2.9, and a player who would’ve gotten a 7.5 now gets a 7.4. This would still make numbers below 2 essentially unobtainable, but it would at least open up the ratings and help better show the difference between a good, average, and bad game.As a side note, I think you’re overestimating how much parity there is in a football league. In nations like Finland or Estonia maybe, but not in the bigger nations. The gap between the best and worst players in any league is massive, and our rating system does a terrible job of showing that.
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He’s a striker, that’s why. His best as technical is finishing, not counting first touch because it’s more of an every situation thing than passing, dribbling, and crossing. He has the mental profile of a striker with ~CL levels all around and it’ll limit the impact of his low teamwork and concentration. He’s got great acceleration and agility to get in behind, and good first touch receive those balls. The technique combined with solid mentals should make his 13 in finishing punch higher than you’d except, and with the right PPM’s like tries first time shots and knocks ball past opponent he could be a quality AF. If you play a 2 striker system with him on the right side he’ll find himself in the channel pretty often and be able to use his decent non finishing technicals to get to the byline and cross to your other striker. I have Muokoko doing that in my RB Leipzig save and he’s producing a lot of quality chances for me.
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You might be able to find some luck in South America. Due to the technical slant of players from there I’ve been able to find some newgens with 12-13 crossing at 18.
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5 hours ago, MrPompey said:
Of course your theory is wrong and your statement is wrong
Yikes. A wee agressive haha.
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On 14/08/2021 at 14:07, XaW said:
@Sloak - I agree the lack of clarity is something that should be addressed, but I'm also not sure how it can be done in a way that is accessible for everyone without making it tedious or too complicated or giving away too much under the hood. I mean, hovering over most of the things in the game will provide a text explaining them.
That one is attributes, and for training the same goes for more "concepts":
If you have any ideas or suggestions to how it could be improved, feel free to add it in the suggestions section on this forum.
I’m glad we can agree lack of clarity is a problem, but we don’t agree that there’s not superior alternatives. The description pop up in game could easily be improved by, for instance, mentioning that crossing is used in indirect free kicks, or that the players ability to cross at speed depends on balance. Neither of which are mentioned anywhere in game. Training does give a solid indication of what stats work together, but as we all know a players ability to dribble past an opponent relies on Acceleration, Agility, Flair, and more. (Side note, I don’t understand why you can’t train tackling or concentration, but you can train things like composure or vision which seem much less teachable on the training pitch).
However, I think having the descriptions be small in game is probably a better idea, with a more comprehensive resource officially released from SI. The official resource could replace the current one on the forums, taking the place of a more in depth description of the attributes.
Just spitballing some ideas, but maybe describe some events that commonly occur in a match of football. Describe what attributes a winger might use as he attempts to dribble his man and send in a cross. Put me in the digital mind of my midfielders as they battle for possession or my attackers as they look for space to receive the ball.
A small visual like the ones we got for roles this year (that are entirely useless as knowledgeable players already understand what a TQ does, and new players are completely misled by a pressing forward that looks the exact same on A, S, and D duties, but I digress) could easily show a player putting his dribbling to use, or tangibly demonstrate what anticipation does on the pitch.
Maybe you give players a peak into what researchers reference when looking at a player. If I know that Joe Schmoe the SI researcher is instructed to treat vision more like the ability to always find a pass vs the ability to find top end passes, it would bring some context to our players in game. If I know how a researcher goes about determining a strikers ability to score goals (like what type of player they’d give high finishing but low anticipation and composure, or vice versa) I can quantify my own striker. I know we have access to some of this information, Jumping reach has been covered on here from memory and I’m sure we’ve gotten a look at others, but having this information somewhere other than a thread buried under years of other threads might be beneficial.
I don’t need to know what attribute is most impactful, or how everything interacts, but more immersion in how the attributes actually create a player couldn’t hurt.
Even if SI feels something like this would be too much to give away, they could at least put out an official version of what we have here, just with less ambiguous and overlapping descriptions. Players are commonly given conflicting information when comparing the games text and the communities resource, or they’re not given the information at all, and while that’s fine for tactics or recruitment, the games fundamental rules really shouldn’t be hard to pin down. SI is literally 1 blog post away from easily clearing up all the misconceptions and lack of information.
I know the suggestion forum has a purpose, but as far as I’ve seen public opinion seems much more impactful on the companies than the ol suggestions box, so I figured I’d air my grievances here. Reading it back it seems a little aggressive, but i really don’t think my ideas are unreasonable, and would bring a lot of benefits to the community with a truly minimal effort on SI’s part.
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2 hours ago, wearesporting said:
Unless it's changed promotion from non playable leagues is reputation based. You may never see them.
What he said. You can try to stack the team and raise its reputation over time, but it’s luck based.
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After putting a couple thousand hours in in-game and probably a couple hundred more on the forums I think I have a decent grasp on the attributes, but I think there’s definitely a valid complaint with lack of clarity. Referencing the game’s text and the forums really shouldn’t be necessary to figure out what your players do well, and even if you do go to the forums you aren’t given everything.
Most of the people on the forums have either been playing for a long time, or have consumed enough content on the game via YouTube and the forums themself to have forgotten what it’s like to be a new player. For someone brand new to the game, being faced with 25+ attributes that are explained minimally and often seem contradicting (decisions and concentration seem almost the same from description) is going to be a lot to process and their best resource for clarity is the forums, where they suddenly learn strength is used in heading and technique causes players to use their dominant foot more. But even then, the forums descriptions are still incomplete.
For instance, neither the forums guide nor the game mention that balance is used in determining how well a player can do things at pace (cross, shoot, pass). Vision seems like it would only really apply to passing, but nowhere in the forum’s description is passing mentioned. In fact, it rubs shoulders with anticipation in “visualizing something developing”, but anticipation’s description makes it appear it’s linked far more to reactions (react is used 3 times) than prediction (used 1 time). Anticipation seems to be as much about predicting the game as it is awareness and offensive movement, and far less important than reactions, which you would expect from concentration given its description. There’s more, concentration references making tight judgement calls, but composure would make more sense for that application, etc.
The point is that players lack access to information in game, and when they dig into a forum to find it, the official guide is ambiguous and somewhat contradicting, leading to the misunderstandings we see in the community that are continually propagated as most players informing new players were misinformed themselves. I understand that SI don’t want to just give away what every attribute does, but there’s gotta be a better way to convey attributes so the mods and the community don’t keep having to answer questions like these.
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53 minutes ago, eXistenZ said:
Oh no I don't deny that. I'm in my 3rd season and the only money I've spent is 190k on an experienced left back. Others have been free signings, including one from dortmund and 2-3 loans. For me they are good, some with very good potential that will definitly bring me a big wad of cash in the future for my stature. But the chances of me bringing in a player on a free that is that young and already very good, are much slimmer. I might find players like that, but it's very unlikely they will be free AND not already being sniffed on by almo small, but still bigger clubs.
Just saying that as dortmund you have way more pulling power and margin for error. When I'm gonna do a milan save after the patch, I'll throw my scouts around and sign a lot of these type of players, or sign brazilians for 3-4M, just because it hardly can fail.
Replying to you seems meaningless as you’ve either argued or ignored every piece of help and logic that’s been given to you, but I’ll take a shot. FM is designed to be played as a big club, often in the prem, and If you don’t do this you can’t run your club the way premier league clubs run theirs.
I love playing outside the Top 5, but you have to come to an understanding, especially if you’re playing outside the top 5-12. You’re at the bottom of the food chain in Europe. You can’t get easy deals off of clubs in leagues lower than you because they will rarely produce them, and clubs in leagues above you far outweigh you in financial and reputation power. In real life, these clubs build from within, on scraps from bigger clubs, and from other continents. It would be different if you were playing in the 5-12 range, you still can’t really get deals from the bigger leagues, but you can buy from similar leagues and ones abroad with a much larger transfer and wage allowance. Clubs in Portugal, The Netherlands, Russia, and Turkey have way more money and are higher rated, meaning they’ll be looking for the same players you are with more ability to make the purchase.
Think about clubs like Ajax, Basel, RB Salzburg, Partizan, etc. Clubs that dominate their country in terms of youth recruitment/development and in the league. All of these clubs stand above their contemporaries, yet only Ajax actually purchases young talent, the rest primarily grow from the youth ranks. You have to think about your competition. You either need to look for 16/17 year olds abroad who you can buy before the big clubs find them, or realize you won’t be buying any wonderkids anytime soon.
My advice would be to look for end of contract and free players <25 and build strong squad depth. You will be able to sell players, and once you have enough money to actually acquire talent (750k will get you 1 hood South African, 2M or more is necessary for South Americans) you can invest wisely on players who need a lot of development.
You will be 99% unable to find a young player good enough to play on your first team for 350k. Almost every European club will be able to pay that fee and most will be higher rep than you. You need to get free players in, sell them for a profit until you can safely invest, and then pull the trigger on players who will need years before they get spinning but have a high potential. If you don’t want to accept that, fine, but that’s how it works in FM and in real life.
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Reading the forums over time has taught me a lot about what attribute effect what actions, but I still learn about more decently often. For instance I learned that balance is factored into shooting and crossing at speed, as well as strength being involved in dribbling, but I feel like I still don’t really fully understand crossing.
Some things such as technique can clearly be seen in crossing, players with ~15 technique are able to actually curve the ball for instance, but I’m unsure of all the attributes involved. Passing seems likely but I’m not really sure, and I would assume vision plays a part but I’m not confident it does. Anticipation and decisions both seem questionable, and I didn’t think any of the physicals effected it before, but after learned balance is used I wonder about other things like strength for kicking the ball.
I ask because I’ve never gotten a great feel for what makes a good fullback, offensively. Wingers are easy as their offensive stats usually stand far above their defensive stats, but I can’t tell what to attributes to prioritize for offensive production for my fullbacks as they’re more often all around players.
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Reading the forums over time has taught me a lot about what attribute effect what actions, but I still learn about more decently often. For instance I learned that balance is factored into shooting and crossing at speed, as well as strength being involved in dribbling, but I feel like I still don’t really fully understand crossing.
Some things such as technique can clearly be seen in crossing, players with ~15 technique are able to actually curve the ball for instance, but I’m unsure of all the attributes involved. Passing seems likely but I’m not really sure, and I would assume vision plays a part but I’m not confident it does. Anticipation and decisions both seem questionable, and I didn’t think any of the physicals effected it before, but after learned balance is used I wonder about other things like strength for kicking the ball.
I ask because I’ve never gotten a great feel for what makes a good fullback, offensively. Wingers are easy as their offensive stats usually stand far above their defensive stats, but I can’t tell what to attributes to prioritize for offensive production for my fullbacks as they’re more often all around players.
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This is something I’m very interested in as well, but I don’t think it’s possible. I hope I’m wrong, maybe there’s a club with a structure like it that already exists that I don’t know about, outside of Red Bull obviously, but I’m pretty sure there isn’t. This may be an excellent feature request.
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How good are we expecting the FM 2025 match engine to look?
in Football Manager General Discussion
Posted
My main hope is a big step up in clarity. I don’t care about graphics really, I play in 2d most of the time as I find 3D has too much going on, but that’s mainly due to the aforementioned lack of clarity.
There has been, is, and will continue to be confusion about what attributes actually do what until the end of time (I have 10k+ hours and just recently learned strength is factored into headers) because SI gives poor resources to explain them, but also because they don’t really manifest in game scenarios.
I’ll give an example from my current save. I have 3 young midfielders that I’m working into the squad. They have similar Anticipation, Composure, Concentration, and Decisions, but their passing attributes vary significantly. One of them has very low vision but good passing and technique, one has low technique but good passing and vision, and the third is decent at all 3. If you total up the 3 attributes for them, they’re neck and neck, but they get to that total in very different ways.
They preform somewhat how you’d expect (low vision but high passing leading to good possession but low creation, etc.) from a statistical point of view, but they don’t at all play how they should. I want to see the low Vision player be more of a ball rotator, rather than just less successful on the same passes.
The same is true for every attribute group. The technical but uncomposed forward, the wing with great balance but poor agility, and the defender that isn’t great at marking but has elite positioning all fail to actually give the impression any of that is happening. They play like every other player in that position and role, modified by PPI’s to a small degree, but again PPI’s impact is mainly statistical from my POV.
As it is now, If you simmed Chelsea’s season and then went back and rewatched it, you’d probably get an idea of who the best players are, but your understanding of what actually makes them great would be very small without knowing the attributes on the back end. I really like guys with unique skill sets, like 150+ PA poachers, or the true total football regens that end up with 12-13+ in most attributes, but they don’t differentiate themselves on the pitch. If I take that Poacher and ask him to do a little more as an AF, he doesn’t look like a Poacher being asked to do more, he just looks like a bad forward.
FM’s graphics will be perfect in my mind at the point that I can watch a season and form opinions on players in the same way I do IRL. The best dribbler on the pitch should let me know he’s the best by visually being the best, not just by succeeding at a higher rate.
TLDR: If you ask the best dribbler in the prem to dribble by an average defender 100 times, and then ask an average dribbler to do the same, there will be a difference in how it looks as well as the rate of success. FM has the statistical side down, but has basically nothing for the visual side, which I’d like to see changed.