04texag
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Posts posted by 04texag
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Just now, jc577 said:
Looks great, I've been doing a lot of research on Girona recently, they've been fantastic to watch. How does the RPM hold as the '1'? I've been thinking about using a HB with traits like that of a DLP to replicate Aleix Garcia to be the '1', with an IFB at right back. Occasionally, Blind at LCB does get quite far forward to underlap/overlap Salvio, so thinking the HB could be nice to drop in when that movement happens.
Those are all proper ideas. I think mine is a very loose idea as I’m trying to utilize my teams talents more than replicate.
Aleix Garcia can roam a fair bit though and is the playmaker. HB on a previous fm would make sense but on this version he will drop too deep and be too much of a cb and less of a playmaker. Especially as you said you let the left CB dribble more and be progressive.
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4 hours ago, crusadertsar said:
Why not use IFB(d) on right side? I find it's perfect for recreating 3-1-6 attacking shape. Unless you are not playing on FM24?
I am playing on FM24, but I didn't want to be too limited when the ball is on the right flank. A true strict 316 would use the IFB like you mentioned. But then, I'd be wasting this amazing player who should be playing further up the pitch.
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I've been testing a 433 which moves into the 316 shape, looking to try out something similar to what Girona is doing this year. You need the IWB to push further forward, tell the left footed, left sided BPD to stay wider. It's been working and playing a treat.
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29 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:
It might be something to do with your tactic. Because False9 in my 433 works just as well as he did in FM23. And drops just as deep.
It also could be the player. Player traits obv make a big difference to these movements.
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21 hours ago, crusadertsar said:
This is a new guide using examples offered by FM24 match engine on a topic that I wrote about many times before. In other threads from FM21, FM22 and FM23 where I was trying to answer an age-old question - Can defensively-responsible, low-to-mid intensity football be successful in Football Manager? I said YES to that question many times before and given my limited experience (one season under the belt so far) with FM24, my answer remains unchanged. You definitely don't need to roll a Geggenpress Meta Tactic (ahem highest defensive line with highest line of engagement and maximum pressing on attacking team mentality ahem) to be successful in FM.
If you are interested in my previous threads about similar pragmatic, "defensive" tactics then check them out below, otherwise continue with me on my exploration of how to defend better in FM24. And YES I love Jose and Ted Lasso, so there that is out of the bag
1. Start With A Plan
One of the biggest mistakes you can make in Football Manager is to go into tactic creation without a preconceived tactical plan. This plan might not always be clear in the beginning. Or easy to form. But you will definitely need one in order to be successful in all tactical aspects of the game. And to come up with a logical plan you will have to ask yourself some questions.
What exactly am I trying to achieve with this tactical system?
How will the tactic emphasize the strengths of my players while minimizing their weaknesses?
How do I want my team to defend?
How will they attack?
Who will be my supporting, attacking and defending players? Who will score the goals?
Firstly, even if you are managing a world-class team, your players cannot do EVERYTHING. Even if they are the most well-rounded total footballers in the world, having them run around while trying to put 100% effort into both attack and defence is NOT ideal use of their skills or game time. Even in intense Geggenpress tactics players cannot attack and defend in equal measure and intensity. Something has to give. You can tell your players to be ultra-attacking and try to score loads and loads of goals. Or have them form a solid defence and just score enough to outscore the AI, whether it be by 1 or 2 goals. Because at the end of the day, that is all you need in the game of football to get those 3 valuable points.
You can certainly try to make an uber-aggressive attacking tactic, one with super high defensive lines and max pressing and try to cheat the game’s match engine. You will probably win more than lose, especially if you have very good players. You will probably win a trophy, or two. But I don’t think it’s a realistic or optimal way of playing FM. It’s certainly not how I gain satisfaction in FM24.
The football that I like my team to play is very balanced in both attack and defence. But if anything I want more focus on defence. Why? Well like I said before, if it only takes one goal to win, then why should my players expand their energy and risk injury trying to score more than one? It makes more sense to expand the rest of their effort on trying to prevent the other team from scoring. In my view that is a logical and balanced approach to football. Defence-First Football.
So there, that’s what I want to achieve with all of my tactics. Good solid defending. First and foremost. On to the next questions.
How do I want my players to defend? How do I improve the defensive side in my tactic?
There are a few things you can control which should help your team defend better in any formation (and even before you assign player roles).
Use deeper player positioning to your advantage
Position players on the field in a way to gain numerical advantage in areas where you want your players to defend the hardest and gain back the ball. So if you have strong, tall centrebacks who can jump and deal with crosses all day then why not funnel opponent’s attack outside, to the flanks? Let them exhaust themselves by running to the byline to launch low-chance crosses all day. This works even better when you have a numerical advantage in CBs as in 3-in-back formation (like Italian-inspired 3-4-2-1).
On the other hand, classic 4-4-2 (or its deeper DM variant) is a perfect formation for funneling the opposition and the ball to the wings where you can force them into running to the byline until they can waste their possession by crossing or get tackled by your fullback. It makes no sense to allow an opponent with a clear midfield tactical advantage to attack you through the midfield. 4-4-2 formation is inherently weaker in the midfield, especially against elite sides that like to press high such as the case with most modern top clubs using 4-3-3 formation. You will always be playing on your backfoot when you line up 2 midfielders against their 3. But how do you turn a weakness into an advantage? There is a very easy solution and all it involves is simple player positioning and a few team instructions.
I am a fan of using the defensive midfield strata when looking to make my tactic better defensively. It only makes sense to have your midfielders start deeper (where they are closer to, and can get support from your CBs) when you want them to defend better. Also, keep in mind that when you set up your formation in the Tactic Creator what you see on the screen is your out-of-possession defending shape. It reflects how the players actually line up when they defend, without the ball.
Therefore, when you want your players to defend and attack like a classic 4-4-2, you might actually want them to line up in 4-4-1-1 DM (or 4-2-2-1-1 DM Wide, if you really want to be pedantic) formation. This way you are making sure that your team operates in multiple layers for better ball control and can rely on adequate defensive support when the ball is lost. Your one attacking midfielder can also act as a deep supporting striker during attack, while being available in a deeper position when defending or moving the bal up (“comes deep to get the ball” trait helps a lot). At the same time, the two DMs can drop down to aid your CBs. And if you use a versatile role like Segundo Volante then you can still have your DM acting as a proper attacking CM (or even AM given the new positional play changes in FM24) when the ball is regained and you go on the offensive.
To summarize, if you think that: a) you will easily be outplayed (due to numerical disadvantage) down the middle, and b) have tall, physically and mentally strong CBs who have no problem dealing with crosses… then it makes sense to funnel the opponent to the wider areas when your team will have no disadvantage. Or might even have a slight advantage. Because on the flanks the defending team can use the sidelines and the byline as an extra defender. It’s a fact, flanks are easier to defend simply because space is limited and no matter how fast or technical the opponent is, they won’t be able to go outside the limits of the pitch and bypass your defender.
So two simple steps. Place midfielders in DM strata, then funnel (through Outside Trap instruction) opponents to the flanks where you can match (or even outnumber them, if opposition likes to use inverted wingbacks) opponent numerically. So far so good!
We have our “better defending” shape and basic defending plan. Now before we start selecting roles, it is a good idea to examine the player attributes. Specifically those attributes, which I believe are important to Defence-First Football.
2. Attributes For Better Defending (or Defending Starts with Inner Strength)
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Mental attributes are absolutely key for Defence-First football. Closely followed by physical attributes such as Stamina, Strength, and Jumping Reach (especially for centrebacks who you want to deal with crosses but having midfielders with good jumping is always preferred). Of course this is not to say that technical attributes such as First Touch, Passing and Technique are not important to defensive football. Quite the opposite. Teams such as Barcelona often play very solid defensively-responsible football because they possess players with high levels of technical skills. Such players might not be able to tackle very effectively or outmuscle their opponents but they will nevertheless keep the ball away from the opposition and thus reduce their chance to score. Afterall, dominating possession is a type of defending while pure possession tiki-taka football is one of the most defensive styles around.
Possession-focused football helps in defending by controlling the ball and space. Those are basic principles of both Total Football and Positional Play football. Have players in every area of the pitch at all times, when one leaves, another replaces him. Win back the ball as soon as you lose it. But that’s not what I am focusing on in this guide. Plenty has been written on that topic by others more qualified than me such as @Rashidi and @04texag. Even then I have covered quite a lot already on Total Football and Positional Play in my other blogs. Two you can check out below.
This guide is about defending on a budget. Sort of. Not that the tactical style that I am developing is only suitable for a relegation-threatened underdog. As you have probably guessed already I am using the example of Real Sociedad which is definitely a top mid-table club in Spain. Maybe not strong enough to properly challenge the two Madrid clubs and Barcelona for the title but good enough to win a continental football spot every season. La Real actually has enough technical players to attempt Possession-focused defensive style and I have tried that on many occasions with them in the past. Yet there is still a huge gap between them and a club like Man City or even Barcelona. After a few seasons you can definitely try to narrow that gap through smart transfers and youth intakes but it will remain an uphill struggle for quite some time to compete against elite teams like City on their own terms.
Much better to beat them on your own terms. And that is why I prefer to save my money and defend smarter. Exactly, SMARTER.
Mental attributes denote player’s footballing IQ and tactical awareness. And it is not as expensive to stock your team full of players with great mental attributes. Besides players with great Teamwork and Workrate will work much harder at following your tactical instructions. And less risk of premature hair loss due to managerial frustration with your footballers' stupidity.
Although you can always opt for a nice hat if the stress becomes too much to handle.
When you examine the profile of your typical player with defensive responsibilities, be it a centreback, inverted fullback (on defend duty) or a defensive midfielder, there will be a few important attributes shared across all roles. Interestingly enough, aside from the standard ones like Positioning and Jumping Reach, majority will fall in the upper half of the mental attributes section. I will try to outline them in the order of importance.
Anticipation, Composure and Concentration, I deem to be essential attributes for any player who will be involved a lot in defensive situations (essentially your defensive midfielders and centrebacks).
Anticipation - is foremost an attribute that defines player’s football IQ. Wrongly, many FM players tend to assume it is more of an attacking attribute, like Off The Ball attribute. While Anticipation can be very useful to an attacker, it is a very general attribute that influences almost all player actions in both attack and defence. In fact, there is a good reason that almost every role in the game has Anticipation listed as either required or important attribute. Simply put, Anticipation reflects the player’s ability to predict and react to movements and other actions of both his teammates and opponents. Higher Anticipation will allow player to react faster to events. Anticipation works in tandem with either Off The Ball or Positioning depending on the situation. So for a defender, he could have the best Positioning in the world but if his Anticipation is bad, he simply won’t anticipate the movement of the opposition attacker accurately enough to get into a good defensive position.
Positioning - another key defensive attribute which all defensive-focused roles require, defensive wingers and liberos included. Positioning is the defensive equivalent of offensive Off The Ball. It reflects how well a player reads a defensive situation and positions himself so as to deal more effectively with an opposition attack. Positioning comes into play when your defenders are off the ball and the opponent is in possession. As mentioned above, Positioning and Anticipation work in tandem and should really be an ever-connected pair. Obviously, you should be much more wary of asking a player with good anticipation but bad positioning to defend. Yet one with great positioning but mediocre anticipation should also never be your 1st choice.
Concentration is my next essential Defence-First Football attribute. The game defines it as “the player’s mental focus and attention to detail on an event-by-event basis”. I see it as a mental equivalent of physical stamina attribute. Thus because mental attributes are so important to defending, it only makes sense that your defenders have the mental stamina = concentration in order to defend at the top of their abilities for as long as possible. Unlike attacking, defending is something that is always ongoing throughout the whole 90+ minutes of a match. Your team might have scored a vital goal against a tough opponent so then the next logical step is to defend even harder so as not to lose your lead. The moment you have a single goal lead is when defending becomes the team priority.
Essentially Concentration is a measure of how unaffected a player is by lost focus when making a decision. The player’s focus will gradually drain over the course of the match. And the more his focus decreases the more likely he is to make a bad decision. Higher concentration will reduce the rate at which focus falls.
Composure, my 3rd essential defending attribute, is similar to Concentration in how it affects decision-making. It defines a player’s steadiness of mind and ability to make smart decisions on and off the ball. Hence it is another attribute that is important in both attacking and defending situations. From its in-game description Composure might sound very similar to another mental attribute, Decisions. In my opinion Decision attribute is a good one to have BUT not as vital to defending as Composure is. Decision is a general measure of how well a player will evaluate the options that he is aware of and make the correct choice. Yet, a player’s decision-making will be limited by his Vision attribute. The choices are only as good the options that the player is aware of. If he does not see the best option then the choice he decides on might not be a very good one. Also Decision attributes is not contextual. Let me explain.
Composure on the other hand is more accurate in reflecting the kind of decision-making that happens all the time in the mind of a player engaged in defending. Defensive decision-making does not happen in a vaccuum. It is done in the context of a very stressful, high-stakes situation. When you are defending against an opposing footballer who is actively trying to get past you and score. There is a lot of mental pressure that affects the decision-making process in such situations. Composure measures how unaffected a player is by this mental pressure while making a decision or performing an action on or off the ball. The higher the stakes, or closer the opponent is to the net you are trying to defend, the more interference this mental pressure will have on decision-making.
Mental pressure can arise from being close to opposition players (such as when trying to close down their star striker), or by the importance of the situation such as when the opponent has a clear goal-scoring opportunity.Thus when defending there is always mental pressure involved. Excessive mental pressure can cause a player to both make a bad decision and perform his chosen action poorly (poor tackle resulting in a red card). Higher Composure attribute reduces the effect of mental pressure upon the player’s Decision attribute. So that’s why I believe Composure is more important than Decision attribute for defensive situations.
Finally, there are a few complimentary mental attributes. They are not absolutely essential but are nevertheless very good to have as part of Defence-First Football DNA.
Players with high Teamwork attribute will just play more like you expect from your tactic. Hence less stress for the manager. According to the game, Teamwork reflects the player’s ability “to follow tactical instructions whilst working for and alongside his team-mates”. Very good to have for any football style really, but especially for Defence-First style that requires extra discipline and attentive commitment.
Workrate attribute, like Teamwork is bonus because it governs how hard a player “works” in both attacking and defensive situations. More specifically it is the player’s “willingness to work to his full capacity, going above and beyond the call of duty.” In the context of defending, it means that the player with high workrate who starts in a more advanced position will be more willing to drop deeper to close down opponents or try to regain the ball. Advanced midfielders and wingers (especially defensive wingers) will greatly benefit from high values in this attribute.
Determination is a self-explanatory attribute that is always good to have by all players and in all situations on the pitch and even off the pitch (will train better!). It is a no-brainer inclusion in my team DNA. Although I am willing to overlook relatively low determination in my youngsters, knowing that this attribute tends to naturally increase in players (ideally before mid-20s y.o) if given enough mentoring attention or just by being around a determined 1st Team Squad.
Finally moving to the physical attributes. There are three - two of which I think are very important to make your team better at defending and one attribute which is recommended but not essential. Not if you, like me, prefer to play with with more patient mid-to-low intensity style.
Strength and Jumping Reach will both help your players exert themselves physically over their opponents in all defensive situations, as well as the offensive ones. Therefore the two are always part of my Team DNA in every save and version of FM. Jumping is particularly important when a player competes with an opponent to get to an aerial ball such as a floated cross. Any tactic that is looking to set up a pressing trap outside and to invite crosses needs centrebacks with very good Jumping. While Strength is simply a measure of how well a player can exert his physical force upon an opposition player. Strength affects how likely a player is to succeed in a physical situation such as when shielding the ball from an opponent while standing or dribbling, when attempting to tackle, when marking an opposition player or when simply competing with an opponent to get to the ball.
No matter how technical your opponent is, they can still be outmuscled and bullied by a more physical defender. In any team sport, strength and size matter. Stamina on the other hand is important but not essential in my Defending DNA. Its importance varies depending on the style of football you are after. If you want your team to play a more proactive, aggressive style of defending (such as in Geggenpress) where your players will actively try to win the ball back in opponent’s half of the field then by all means Stamina will be key, along with Aggression and Bravery (I would also recommend those two for any defence-minded player). In general, Stamina attribute reflects how well a player can retain condition while exerting effort during a match. Naturally, the higher a player’s condition is, the better he will perform any action. And the more effort a player puts in during a match the more his condition will deteriorate. That’s why more intense styles of football such as high-pressing Geggenpress or any high possession football require players with high levels of Stamina. For low-to-mid intensity midblock - not as much.
TO BE CONTINUED...
Great post! Your writing is always great and I like these threads about tactical styles I'm not as familiar with.
Also, you give me honors I'm not sure I'm worthy of, but thanks!
Keep up your great writing and approach!
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7 hours ago, dzek said:
For example, if I play with a 4222 shape and have my two AMs mark specific positions ( DR & DL for this case ) then will they stay wider and so I don't need the stay wider instruction?
Possibly, depends on where in play, as they will position differently with and without the ball, and what part of the pitch the ball is. Try it and watch on full highlights to see.
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You could try giving them man marking instructions to force them to favor one side over another.
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7 hours ago, bababooey said:
Has anyone tried using a halfback in front of a back 3?
My idea is to do something where one of the 3 center backs goes on an underlapping run, while the halfback drops in to cover for him and form a back 3 with the remaining two center backs. Then, we could have a CM who drops deep to form a 3-2 build up shape. Is this nutso or solid ?
This definitely works.
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Decisions I think is super important. Players need to know what to do with the ball and the faster control play needs quick decisions with shorter time on the ball. I'd maybe prioritize that over composure although both are important.
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I've had success before using the AP out on the wing in the AMR slot, but you don't want to have too many playmakers.
An option I would try over any others is to use the IW-S, tell him to stay wide, and hold up the ball.
A good player with dribbling skills will still make runs, but it will tone it down some. The instruction is meant to have the player hold up play long enough for other support players and runners around them to move into position. Which, sounds like exactly what you're looking for.
You can also add this instruction to a winger on support if I remember correctly. Out of town and don't have the game handy atm.
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23 minutes ago, jc577 said:
How is the RMD playing out? I've been wanting to play with one for a while, but in recent editions of the game it's been pretty ineffectual (too wide) for my liking.
Pretty well. In my new save, I don't have the right player here yet. I'm using Angel Di Maria, and his mentals and technicals are great, but his physicals are waning being that he's 35. Still, he's close to turning it on.
His rating is high, performing well, but could be better.
I do have some PI's with this tactic.
RMD - Take more risks, dribble more.
AP has the most...., everyone else is fairly vanilla
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12 hours ago, Jambo98 said:
Great writing and explanations as ever........but are you really creating that shape using those roles and duties?
I struggle to see where the CWB would fit into the desired shape and the HB might drop into the backline, but the Libero will step out... so how do you get your "3"?Have you tried it and watched the movements? The back three forms out of the IFD, BPD and the HB. When the CWB pushes well forward, the HB drops in just behind him out wide. That 4231 tactic is a very fluid tactic though, and not a highly structured 325. As I mentioned, that 4231 plays a lot like that, but it's not truly that.
On the flip side, I actually came here this morning to post my in progress 3 box 3 tactic. It's been delightful, and much more faithful and structured as a 325, or moreso a 3 box 3.
First, links to articles. I don't have the time to write up too much, so here are some reference articles I suggest anyone curious about this stuff to read, they are very good.
https://spielverlagerung.com/2021/03/22/how-guardiola-3-2-2-3-ultimately-solved-the-defending-meta/
https://tacticallyspeaking.co.uk/2023/04/28/comparing-3-box-3-and-2-3-5/
Seriously, read those links.
Now, for a fun 3 box 3 that has been creating a lot of what I'm looking for. 3 at the back, rest defense varied between the back 5 and attacking from the front 5. The box 4 in the middle (In game it's much more pronounced then the pass map/data analyst screens show). And the striker drops deep some as well to form the top of the pentagon.
My FM23 save got bugged. Super bummed. So I've started a new save with Benfica. I don't have the best players at either flanks FB spot, they don't really match up well with what I'm wanting to do, but they are good players for other tactics, so they will do for now.
Aside from wanting to do the 3 box 3, I was intrigued by the infamous Ozil to the Arsenal (who seemingly I can't link to his username anymore
). He now exclusively posts on X, formerly known as twitter.
My tactic works to do a very similar shape in attack. I've got Joao Mario moving central and being the prime link for the team. Luis moves left to create room for the right IWB. Joao Neves (sign this kid, he's been great) gets well forward due to his CM-A role, which the winger has given space for. And so the DLF naturally will settle more to the left away from the CM-A. The RMD-A is a role I've really been trying to make work. The though behind it is that with the left full back tucking in and staying deep, there should be ample space naturally for the RMD to find and operate in, so the shape and role match up well.
I'd say give it a go. I occasionally have been using play out from the back as an option to draw the defense out more if they are sitting back in a block, as the weaker Premier League clubs will do against Benfica.
Here's the start to our brand new save's first season, which includes Goncalo Ramos having been out injured.
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59 minutes ago, shaunwwfc said:
would be brilliant to see all tactics posted with TIs and PIs
Thanks for the feedback.
Yes, I can post tactics soon. I really wanted to write more of an article to get people thinking about tactics so that they can adapt these ideas for their own teams and saves. But a starting point is helpful.
Come to think of it, the 433 in the first post and the 4231 posted recently are both very good IMO for getting started.
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35 minutes ago, Diverisma158 said:
there are PI in all the tactics u posted here? i've been reading all and i cant find it haaha, i love JDP
Pretty much the only two with PI are the AMC, with roams from position and moves into channels, and the AMR with stays wider. That's it.
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Possession Levers
One of the things I like to do with my base tactic is try to keep the amount of instructions more limited. I want the mentality, to match with what I want to do, my PRD to determine my overall player strategies, then dial in the specifics with TI's. I don't like seeing tactics posted everyone online that have every box checked seeking to break the ME.
So, my base tactic has Positive play, players roles setup to play how I want with mixes of support players, creators, runners, scorers etc. I want us to play a possession game and build from the back, but as discussed, we don't even use that instruction. But it's very important to remember that we are building a system, and not a ME breaking tactic. And so you must sometimes slow down and watch the games play out, and then adjust accordingly.
Below our some common tweaks I'll make, which I call levers. I try to envision making these changes as throwing switches/levers, where I know what I'm seeing, and if I throw a lever, I should see an immediate impact or direct result. I'm trying to work within known boundaries of causation, and not just willy nilly selecting stuff at random, throwing mud to the wall to hope something sticks.
First step
If we are struggling for any reason in a game, or I feel we might need a switch, I will immediately slow the sim down and watch highlights, sometimes at full game. I'll often look at the score, possession percentage, passing percentage, and for any standout performers. Below are two common occurrences when using my positional play tactics and then some of my decision logic based on watching highlights.
Possession but no intent
The challenge in FM, especially with 433 shapes over the years, is it can be easy to dominate possession in a game, but look very plain while doing so. I've found this to often be the case, and thus my base tactic tries to avoid this. That said, usually, we dominate against most teams. Especially deeper into a save when you've had time to build your squad around your playstyle. So in games where you are dominating and seeing possession hovering around 60%, you likely need to take some more risks. After confirming that our possession is high and we are not offering enough threat, I will secondarily check the shots before making a change here. Are we belting a lot of long shots with a low shots on target percentage? If no, then I will not change much other than adding Pass into space. This instruction will encourage our playmakers to try more through balls and longer passes onto runners looking to make threatening runs. This is one of the most direct ways in FM I have found to increase the 3rd man runs. This instruction will increase risk and lower our possession generally, but hopefully unlocking the defense for a scoring chance in the process. Additionally, I may add the counter instruction on to add some attacking edge, but you really need to watch the ME highlights to see if this is appropriate.
If our shots on target % is low, I will add Work the ball into box, as this will minimize long shots and needless crossing, instead opting to work harder for a better opportunity closer to the goal. This will slow us down and increase possession though, which may not be what we want if we are searching for a goal. If we are ahead in the game, then go for it. This can be advantageous. If we are tied or *gasp* losing, this may not be smart. Instead, you might try Play for Set Pieces if your team is decent at them.
Struggling for Possession
Usually in champions league play, or in matches against other league title contenders, the games will be close fought affairs. Often in these matches, I'll find we are struggling for possession and need to make some tweaks to be more cautious or encourage a slower more methodical build up. Again, it's best in these scenarios to slow down the ME highlights and watch for a bit to see why first.
Are we getting pressed heavily? Then it may make a lot of sense to increase our tempo slider by one. Ideally, we do not want to increase this too much, as it will have a big impact, especially without plays out of defense on. We do not want to completely bypass our playmakers, which a higher tempo is more prone to doing. So you must watch and adjust tempo so that your players are holding the ball until pressed, then passing just before the pressing defender gets to them. In some scenarios I will even lower tempo to the lowest setting if playing against a parked bus where the defense doesn't press hardly at all.
Alternately, sometimes we will be playing at a fine tempo, but our players are making too many risky passes. We do not want to just ping the ball around needlessly, as you must remember the Lillo quote, we want to move the opposition, not just the ball. I've found while playing with these tactics that sometimes the Be more expressive instruction causes more players to play risky passes and we can lose out on some build up even when not being pressed hard. In these scenarios, I just untick the instruction.
Another final thing I will watch for in the ME is our transition game. If we are playing well defensively, but triggering counterattacks too often, we can lose possession again before we have had much of a chance to get into our shape and build up overloads. When I see this occuring, I will add the instruction Hold Shape to discourage needless counter attacking. This will directly improve our possession percentage in most scenarios, allowing us to slow down and try to unlock the defense with our system and not pure chance upon a counter.
Final action
Sometimes, you just simply need to swap players around or make a substitution. A final thing I will look at, often pausing the game and taking a moment, is the current match ratings and performance of both teams. I'll look at my players first, are any of my stars struggling? If so, why? Tired players need substitution, and over played players, if not playing well early in a game, I do not hesitate to bench them so they can get rest and a fresher pair of legs can come in. Our system will work to our advantage and we must let it.
I look then to the opposition team as well. If there are any standouts, especially if they have a playmaking role or I've seen them routinely feature in highlights, I'll use Opposition Instructions and select to Mark tighter and Press more often.
And that's about it for some possession levers I use in game to impact the overall pace and result of a game. I'd love to see some responses to this post and hear what some of you all do in similar scenarios to adjust on the fly within a game.
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I've been absolutely slammed, but wanted to post for fun the 4231 I've been using at the end of my latest season. It's been really fun and playing an absolute dream.
You need to load it up and try it out just to see for yourself, IMO. But it does use a lot of the same principles from this entire thread with the instructions and mixing of roles and duties.
I've been working on developing a 3 box 3 formation, and this one plays a lot that way. I love seeing the pentagon in the middle during buildup
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Here's a lovely goal. This was so nice I just had to capture and share it.
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Coming soon.... A 4231 variant tactic that is absolutely dominating in my save right now. Champions League Quarter final first leg, 10-1 win! I'd say that's impressive. And those goals by the DM's are not from corners, but open play.
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On 03/11/2023 at 11:57, Rowingkid said:
I started a Barca save and started a 3CB formation and it's working well. 14 unbeaten in the league and through to KO's of CL. Obvs Barca are quality regardless of formation but to see the players play how i've set them up is really good.
GK
WCB-BPD /CB-ST / WCB-BPD
LWB-S / RWB-AT
DM-DLP-S / SV-AT
AM-C/AM-C
ST
Working really well as Balde and Cancelo are class WB's. And in the midfield we have quality but they can all kind of interchange and also Joao Felix is better as an AM then as LW which he would be in a 433
Only thing i've noticed is that i constantly come up in the analysis emails as the leagues worst defensive team but i haven't conceded many and have the best GD in the league. Wondering if because i have 60 - 70% possession in most games it means i'm not making tackles/clearances etc which is keeping my stats low compared to the league average and therefore they consider the team not good defensively? . Not really fussed about it but just seems weird
You mean something like their announced lineup for today?
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20 hours ago, Rowingkid said:
Great stuff this. Defo given me some ideas i want to try out . I'm currently playing 3 CBS with WBs so will need to see what i can apply to that as I don't particularly want to change that set up.
Thanks for the feedback! Yes, I think a 3 cb formation could work very well in this FM. I'd use the back three as a solid base for a rest defense, with a lot more flexible, roaming players in front. Maybe a 316 attacking formation with the right players, to really push it. Try an anchor or DMD, then a bunch of fun in front of that.
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Relativism - The ball and players, Area of Mutual Help, Flank variability, intro 3rd man runs
Time for another post, this time, I want to talk about relative positioning to the ball, and the defense.
Let’s start with defining 3rd man runs, drawing from an article on the coaches voice: https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/third-man-runs-football-tactics-explained-gasperini-guardiola/
Third Man Runs - A third-man run happens when the team in possession attracts an opponent towards the ball. Two players exchange passes before a third makes an off-the-ball run into space to receive. Third-man runs are therefore crucial to finding a player in a better position who cannot be found with a direct pass.
Third man runs are used to exploit the space that is created by a team in possession. I’ve said before, but the ball has a magnetic effect. The ball draws players to it, and so do a ball carrier. The defense is naturally drawn to defend the player with the ball. And so, a team in possession can pass the ball around, and by doing so draw the defense to them and out of their own shape. The third man is the player who moves into previously occupied space once the defender has left his assigned spot.
This is a key to understanding positional play. Take this quote from Juanma Lillo: “It’s not about moving the ball, it’s about moving the opponent.”
By moving the ball, we are merely using the best tool in our arsenal to achieve the goal of moving the opposition. When we move the opposition, we can disorganize their defense and then play through them.
Another way to achieve the above, is to have a player move into the spaces between the defenses lines. A midfielder or attacker dropping deep is a common way to do this. The player drops into space to receive the pass, which then asks a big question of the defense. Who is going to respond and step out to press this open ball carrier. That will now further disrupt the defense’s shape and a new third man can now take advantage.
Within Football Manager, there are some positional roles which are better than others at accomplishing all of these types of tasks. A simple way to think about it is to think about the duties assigned to roles. Typically, a support duty player will be a player who will look to play the passing game with other fellow team mates. Offering themselves for passes and working together to link between defense and attack. Attack duty players will look to make runs and find open space.
However, not all support duty players are the same. A BMW on support will play much differently than a DLP on support. And this is where we can combine roles and duties in our tactics to get the tactical flexibility we want.
If the midfield is in a 2v2 with a BWM and a DLP, both on support, they are both likely to pass to each other (team instructions and player traits obv play a big part here); however, the DLP is much more likely to spot a team mate further up the pitch making a run or settling in to open space.
To achieve our goals within a positional play framework, we need a mix of player types, roles and duties, ideally spread across different areas of the pitch. But before we go further, let’s recall an old discussion about the area of mutual help.
In the team organization post, we defined the area of cooperation as the larger area on the pitch where the team is defining the overall play space. This is how the team manages the width and depth to their advantage. The area of mutual help is the much smaller area more immediately around the ball carrier. Think of this as the ball carrier and the closest 2 to 3 other team mates. This is the confined area of the pitch where the attacking team will look to establish passing lanes and triangles amongst themselves to draw the defense towards them, thus opening other space for attacking moves and third man runs.
In the above picture, the orange is the larger area of cooperation, and the area of mutual help are the yellow lines). We have players holding our team shape, then other players moving in supportive manner to support the ball carrier.
Flank Variability - Finally, before tying this all together, let's look at variability. Within the course of playing a game, you cannot always determine for play to move through a single player or area of the pitch. Thus, you must be able to play flexibly using the whole pitch. So, you need to have a mix of roles and duties across your team so that areas of mutual help can form and function well independent of the phase of buildup or location on the field.
So on each flank, we should have at least 1-2 supportive players, playmakers, and runners. This way, we can always look to exploit the defense by passing, moving, and threading more difficult defense unlocking passes. But, in order to prevent becoming to static and predictable, it's good to have a varied approach to each flank. You don't want to have the same patterns of play and ball movement on each side.
Tactical settings -
Ok, now let's look at some tactical settings. Here is the base tactic we posted before.
We discussed in the previous post how we have a mix of players who are scoring threats, playmakers and links. So what I want to talk about now, is how I would expect these things to take shape.
When we play down the right flank, the BMW will drift over and create a base, the BPD-St will sit below him, and the two will create our main rest defense on this flank, as well as some ball recycling functions. Generally, they will be much more static. In the initial build up, the WB will look to link defense to attack and support the ball carrier, with the Winger holding position high and wide an not offering much support early in the buildup. However, later in the build up and into the final third, the Winger should drift narrower and the WB should naturally overlap.
The RPM has a lot of rotational fluidity, so he will move all the way to the right flank to support a ball carrier, and make himself available to receive passes, and then quickly turn to find a runner or another layoff pass. The others previously listed, will prioritize quick passes moreso than through balls (PPMs withstanding). The RPM will opt instead to try to find 3rd man runners and more progressive passes due to his settings determined by the playmaker role.
The DLF will drop deep early, but in the final third he will operate in the box. The Mez on attack duty will function much more like an AMC and stay quite high in early buildup, looking for space in the channel to run in to. Finally, the Winger on the left flank should stay wide as well. When attacking down the right flank, the Mez and W-At are the main players who will make 3rd man runs.
You can see how there is a lot of built-in support, roaming movement, running players, etc here.
Now, you have to start looking at the team tactic settings as well. We play on Positive mentality as it's really the way the ME is designed for this type of team to play. Just simply hover over the tooltip info.
Now, to build on that, here are our in possession instructions
I use the fairly narrow width, as I've found this best encourages good interplay for your team, which we are wanting as ball carriers should not be too isolated, but rather players should draw in towards them to support them. I sometimes play with fairly wide and focus through the middle, but this doesn't work quite as well or realistically to this style IMO. The wingers are already told to stay wide and will create the width we need in most scenarios.
I like the slightly lower temp and standard passing directness. This is a change more recently but I've found it to offer the best mix of slow build up, faster tempo in the final third.
Finally, the be more expressive is important to prevent your team from being to stale in possession. You want players to be much more flexible in the area of mutual help, but rigid in the overall shape. Be more expressive to me seems to really strike the balance within the overall tactic we've built.
Work the ball into the box is not turned on by default, as it can again make you prioritize possession too much and we do want to cross and attack when appropriate. IF your team is launching tons of long shots, then i check this TI during a game.
Lastly, I love to use pass into space when we need to try more through balls and 3rd man runs. This can work very well with the right players and within a game if you are winning the possession battle but struggling to find a break through.
I hope this post has had something interesting. I'd love to see some more questions and discussions about this take on positional play I'm putting together, so please feel free to comment away.
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Interesting, I played against RB Leipzig early in a new save for FM 24 and they were using a 4222 box formation. Maybe try playing them and scout out their roles and try to mimic what the ai is doing for starters.
But ya if you can translate to English people here can help
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Here is an unplanned but interesting thing I've noticed.
I'm playing in a champions league game against Lazio. We are the better team, but with increased stakes bc of CL, I have slightly shifted some duties. I've noticed that since my left back is on auto with hold position, and this particular player is quite defensive, he is basically being entirely ignored. As such, he's completely unmarked and the opposition winger is actually dropping deeper to mark my Winger with an attack duty on this flank. Due to this defensive shift, the oppositions right FB is now able to sit deep and tuck in narrower, not allowing for the space in the channel that I would normally be looking for.
In response, I'm going to tweak my tactic mid-game to try to exploit this. This is experimental, so we shall see if it works, but it's cool seeing some different ME stuff play out in FM24
My thought is that to be disruptive, and at least cause some different chaos on the left flank, we are going to switch some roles and duties around. The back 5 are unchanged (except the DM is now a DLP here to make use of Enzo's creativity and hope he can unlock a pass in the space we create. The left winger will now drop deeper and hopefully pull more marking, the mez is going to try to run in behind.
Whether or not this works, it's worth exploring how the FB has impacted the defenses marking here. Another option could be to sacrifice some of our rest defense (which shouldn't be a problem as the opposition winger isn't looking to exploit that space), and change this left FB to a support, a WB, or even an Attack duty.
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Attacking Third - Then Vs Now -
Attacking trident and a #10 Vs creative attacking wingers, hybrid 8/10s in the middle
I'm not the best to speak about soccer history in depth, as I'm pretty recent as far as watching and studying soccer (summer 2018). So I will touch on this briefly, although I find it super interesting and impactful to the modern game.
Where has the classic #10 gone?
A classic #10 would often be paired with attackers who were very focused. 10 was a playmaker, the wingers and forwards were attackers. Those days are gone as more well rounded skill sets have become the norm. But why? A lot has to do with the way possession tactics have shifted. Positional play and other systems like to press high up the pitch, requiring all players to be hard worker. The days of a number 10 being lax on defense and only worrying about space, transitions, and orchestration are gone. There are always exceptions of course. Most teams though, want high pressing, and ask a lot more out of players. Wingers are asked to be more creative, central mids are asked to be more technical, and fullbacks are sometimes asked to be quasi playmakers on their assigned flank. All in all, most teams are using more of a total football approach wherein they are asking each and every player to play with a more broad skillset. On some teams, you could positionally swap a lot of the forward players and there would be little differences, but nothing major. Bernardo Silva can play on the wing, drop back and almost play like a 6 helping early play out, attack channels and arrive late as a goal scoring threat. These types of players are much more the norm now.
All of those things have led to a shift away from 10s and towards hybrid players. Free 8's in central midfield, who are industrious, but are very creative, almost like box to box hybrid 10's. Wingers are not just wingers anymore. They need to stay out wide, but when the ball is on their flank, they should work overloads, positionally rotate, move into channels, pass to runners and be runners themselves.
Personally, I love this wider spread adoption of total football type of play where any player can and should offer multiple skillsets and support to the overall team goals.
Back to FM
So, what does this mean for us? The 433 is a great system to make use of these tactical ideologies expressed above. The 3 midfielders offer up defensive solidity in the DM, and then two CM's who can play as free 8's. The AML and AMR offers great width, but both players can play as great rotational players who offer attacking and supportive play. Here's the fun part, if you get the overall team structure and rest defense sorted well, there is a lot of flexibility for implementing the front 5. You can truly mix things up based on players, personal preference and perspective on attacking play.
Let's look though at my setup, and talk about what I'm looking to do and why.
When considering my attack, I need to think through several different things, like who is going to create chances, who is going to get on the end of them, and who is going to be a support player, linking attack and defense. Now, especially as Positional Play is a fundamental off shoot of total football, and for reasons we have described above, most players are going to serve more than one purpose. Here's some examples:
- The DLF is going to be one of my main goal scorers. With him on the DLF role, he should be able to also serve the role of being a link, as he will drop deep in transitions, but then only offer quick simple passing before launching himself forward to get into threatening positions to be a goal scorer.
- The Mez is going to be a creative player, looking to play higher up the pitch and not worry as much about transitions. But he will get into channels to receive the ball and then either create a chance for others, or take chances for himself.
- The RPM is going to be a link, with high work rate to link between attack and defense, worrying a lot about transitions, but as a playmaker, he is also going to try to create chances and make higher risk passes that might unlock the defense.
So let's look at the balance we have between these things.
Supports - RPM, W-Su, and slightly out of DLF and BMW
Creators - RPM, W-Su, Mez
Attacking threat - W-At, DLF, Mez
I have several options that can serve these roles. Additionally, when you think about the position of these pieces, we have pretty good coverage for different areas of the pitch. We have an attacker on the left flank, in the middle, and through the right channel. We have creative players wide right and on the left channel, who also can roam and cover broad areas of the pitch. Additionally, not pictured we do have the WB-s on the right. There is a lot of versatility here.
Also, we need to remember one of the first posts where we talked about the Wingers in this system. Aside from the above roles (support, create, attack), the wingers are already serving another purpose in maintaining team width. Both players are staying high and wide to pin the opposition fullbacks to open up the channels.
I'm going to keep this post shorter and stop here, but next up we have some more fun things to talk about if you reference are post outline in the first post.
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). He now exclusively posts on X, formerly known as twitter.
FM24: Positional Play, Rotations, and Relationism (Tactic Added)
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
I haven’t messed with the tactics as shown at the beginning of the thread post game updates, so not entirely sure if they need some tweaks or not. But, I should test them out. I’ll do so and possibly share back here.