crusadertsar
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Posts posted by crusadertsar
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9 hours ago, billmatic said:
I thought I'd try something different before doing my own save and told ChatGPT to create a "defence-minded tactic" and this is what it cooked up. Let's see how this goes!
Update: Simulated the first 10 games of the season to see how the tactic would fare and it's not looking good to say the least.
Well you did use AI to create your tactic without putting any actual effort into thinking of role combinations and instructions that actually work well together in a Defence-First tactic.
The roles AI proposed are too predictable. There is also not a lot of tactical variety and almost nonexistent goal-scoring threat. It's a just a tactic that defends passively for the sake of defending. But guess effort put in equals results reaped.
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1 hour ago, mikcheck said:
@HanziZoloman you're really advanced in the game. Have you been on the same team since the start and what are those numbers after the name?
We will wait for him to respond. But he is doing a youth academy challenge from what I remember. Numbers like that is what some use to keep track of intakes in those kind of saves. I myself use a similar system where I put the year number that the player entered my academy after his name. It's just fun to see all the golden class graduates in the future, seeing how many were in the same year. I find youth development is really the only way I can keep interest in my long term saves. My current one is approaching 2030 mark so I guess it's working. But 2067 is indeed very impressive!
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3 hours ago, Batigoal__ said:
This season at Marseille has been complicated but exciting, with its Europa League run and the hopes of a whole city and a whole nation to see it through.
The last few matches have featured a 3-5-2 tactical line-up. The numerous injuries have had an impact on the tactical organisation, not to mention the changes in coaching staff.
I'm asking for your help in reproducing the 3-5-2 employed by OM at the end of this financial year.
The average positions for the last two games.Ligue 1
https://www.sofascore.com/rc-lens-olympique-de-marseille/QHsYH#id:11391276
Europa League
https://www.sofascore.com/atalanta-olympique-de-marseille/QHsLdb#id:12173468
In addition, Ligue 1 championship stats
Style of play Marseille ranked 3rd in possession, 13th in average attacking speed, 3rd in high crosses, 7th in defensive actions, 8th in height of defensive actions, 10th in % against pressure.
In terms of performance, we ranked 6th in scoring chances, 12th in attacking efficiency, 4th in % of possession within 30 metres of the opposition goal, 5th in high ball recovery, 1st in chances conceded (the fewest), 17th in defensive efficiency.Thank you all for your support in the future.
Mate, you do realize this is the quick question thread. It's a nice and detailed post but I don't really understand what your question is here? Wouldn't it be more productive for you to start a specific new thread on this topic? You would probably get more feedback that way. Here it will unfortunately probably just get drowned by daily questions.
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On 02/05/2024 at 07:25, Dr Naysay said:
Most striker roles can work in a 433 within reason.
My current striker with Zaragoza is Ivan Azon and he is set up as a PFA. What you do around the striker and how you set the tactic up is massively important to how successful the role is, as is reading and reacting to what's happening in game. I will say that when it comes to 433 and playing as a primary goal scorer who doesnt drop deep I prefer a well rounded lone striker whose at least 6 foot, he can be 5ft 10 or higher if he excels in the air, I also will want to limit his weaknesses, for instance Ivan Azon can't dribble at a La Liga level so I will find a way to limit his chances to dribble which in this case was by changing his trait to running with the ball rarely. You need to take an overall approach to the set-up rather than just fixating on just the striker.
Good points but the player height really does not matter in the simulation engine. It's all about the Jumping Reach. So what you mean is is having a striker who has at least 14 or 15 for Jumping Reach. Or even higher ideally.
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37 minutes ago, bosque said:
When will the disadvantage happen? I mean, what are the signs of a slow tempo working badly?
You just won't be able to keep the ball very well against better teams. Your chances will be from further away and of low quality. They will press you hard and take the ball away and will control the game. In those cases you need to play crisp fast moving game to give less chance for the opposition to press you and force errors.
Even with my Real Sociedad which is a pretty good team in 2029, I am forced to up the tempo when playing against superior technical teams like Barca or Real Madrid.
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Generally slow tempo football is very suitable to world-class teams that have elite players who have great mental technical and mental attributes to pass the ball around and keep it away from opposition. Teams like Bayern or Man City. If your team is not like that in FM24 then playing slow tempo possession style is always going to put you at a disadvantage.
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4 hours ago, BennosGames0299 said:
The only issue is the hardcoded instructions included with the halfback position are not suitable for the movement I'm looking to create. Frankie was the progressive carrier in the team, he would drop into the left hand zone to form a back three and the bring the ball out of defense into midfield like a libero, but the half back is hardcoded to hold position and dibble less.
Thanks for the comment though mate.
Unfortunately other than a halfback there is no other role that drops back like that. You could maybe try a halfback with some unique individual traits like brings the ball out of defence ect.
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8 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:
Thanks first for all the help!
I have the best Training Facilitys in the league (good) and the best coaches for my youngsters. Really much emphasis has been put into that part of the game. Sadly my youth facilities has been downgraded twice and at the moment I am full red financially. No one wants my players except for an Apple.
I am really looking forward to your updates, it will be interesting as always.
At the moment my approach is a balanced, no counter pressing one. If we continue like now, I will post it in the Defense First topic of yours
but: my offensive players develop much better than the Defense players. Which is why I put more defensive schedules in.
PS yes, lower league and Youth Academy Challenge.
I think one of the reasons that offensive players develop better than defensive ones is because getting good ratings from matches has an important effect on development (don't ask me why haha maybe it's supposed to model improved confidence effect). And it tends to be easier for an attacking player to get good ratings from scoring a goal or assisting with a pass. While for defensive players like CBs it's a bit harder. And in lower leagues especially we tend to see more goals leaked than in elite divisions. Just one of the ways that game was coded to match closer to reality. So your best bet is just to keep playing your defenders and hope they do well. But if you are taking a Defence-First approach then that shouldn't be a problem
Also give your lads more time, if your training facilities are not at an elite level (even if they are best relative to other clubs in your league), player development will still be very slow. And chances are your newgens probably will never reach their full potential unless they move to a club like Man City or Arsenal. It's a sad reality for most small clubs 😞
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@HanziZoloman the trick to helping your newgens (or any young players under 22-23 y.o) develop to their full potential is a combination very good training facilities/coaching and plenty of play time at highest competition level possible. Honestly the actual choice of training routines seem to make little difference (or in my experience at least). Usually I let my assistant handle the general coaching (except in pre-season where I set it myself because I find AI never sets it intense enough for my liking). What I set myself always is the individual role and focus training, even for some players in my B teams and youth teams.
Having the best possible state of the art training facilities is far more important. As well as hiring best 4.5-5 star coaches. Another important element is making sure that all your coaches have above average "working with youth" attribute.
So I would look for checking all of those off to help your young players develop. Following these simple rules, I have had no issues in developing my newgens. In fact I had a couple of newgens who already reached 3.5-4 star ability (while starting at 1-1.5 stars) and they are mostly under 20 y.o. I will probably do an update on this as a little guide to youth development in my Real Sociedad Defence-First Thread.
PS: But in your case, I believe you are doing Lower League Management save no? Honestly those are usually not the best for developing youth players. Are your facilities good enough to develop them fast enough before they reach their early to mid twenties?
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30 minutes ago, kennypavey said:
Reading this I can't help thinking of my team AIK in the Swedish league. Looking at our three latest league titles it has looked like this:
- 2018: Won the title letting in 15 goals in 30 games playing a 5-3-2 with a large focus on "shape" and defensive solidity.
- 2009: Won the title letting in 20 goals in 30 games, scoring only 36 in the process. Played a pretty straight 4-4-2, with a coach mentioning stability and "doing the simple things great" as their motto.
- 1998: Won the title leeting in 15 goals in 26 games, however 9 out of 15 was let in during the first 9 games before we switched keeper. More impressive, we scored only 25 goals in 26 games, meaning that we won the title while being the team with the least goals scored in the entire league.
Needless to say, opposition fans are calling us boring quite often. Sometimes it is correct, but sometimes it just seems to be a matter of "you keep a lot of clean sheets therefor you must be boring".
Since 2018 we have had our ups and downs, a lot due to the board thinking that the supporters need "entertaining" football to watch the games (could not be more wrong...), so we had a few bad seasons playing entertaining football, but now it seems like we are finally back on track with new manager Henning Berg. Under Berg we do not really care about possession, but we're not a passive team either. When the ball is lost or when there is an opposition goal kick AIK press high, but if the ball is not won we settle in a low/midblock, waiting for a mistake to pounce and attack with speed. Some examples of goals scored during 2024 (example_1,example_2, example_3)
Trying to emulate it, I have the following so far:
Formation: 4-2-3-1
In defense it is basically a narrow 4-4-1-1, but went for a 4-2-3-1 to get Modesto's aggressive runs into space from the right side.In attack, the left winger tucks in while the other stays high and wide, running into channels. The left back goes forward and wide, while the right side plays more like a traditional full back.
Team Instructions
- Balanced mentality
- Play out of defence - Nordfeldt in goal is no stranger to kicking it far, but most often he's distributing it shorter to defenders.
- Fairly Narrow in attack
- Counter attack
- Counter press
- Mid block
- High defensive line - To get a tight mid block
- Press more often
- Press outside
Players
The goalkeeper is nothing weird, it is national team keeper Kristoffer Nordfeldt playing as a GK (D)
The defensive line is a bit lopsided, with a WB (S) to the left and a FB (S) to the right. In some cases it might be a FB (A) to the right, as they are somewhat frequently popping up in the penalty area. In the center we have one CD (D) and one BPD (D).
The double pivot is really depending on the players. Anton Saletros is the star, a complete midfielder that can take both offensive and defensive responsibilities. If he is paired with Bersant Celina, Saletros is playing like a DM (S) with hold position, and Celina is playing like a RPM (S) or SV (S). But if he is playing with Martin Ellingsen or Abdihakim Ali, Saletros is taking the attacking role.
On the wings, we have Rui Modesto on the right. He is a natural wing back, but now he's our top scorer. He plays high and wide, but has constant runs in the channels. So I have tried him as an IF (A) with stay wider. The left side is tucking in into the AM strata if Celina or Ayari are playing there, so then I have a IW (S) with sit narrower, cut inside with the ball and roam from position. But if Coulibaly is playing there, he tucks in into the CM strata, so then it is a WM (S) in the CM strata with the same instructions.
In the AM position, we play with a SS (A) or AM (S). Omar Faraj is a beast, playing like a AM target man and bullying opponents with his physicality while being surprisingly good in his passing and dribbling game. We also have Ayari and Besirovic who are smaller and more technical "pure" attacking midfielders.
As a striker we have Ioannis Pittas, the Cypriot striker who never stops running. In fact he covered the 4th most ground of strikers world-wide per game last season. He really is a PF (A) with move into channels. Here is a typical Pittas goal. In the future we will also have former top talent John Guidetti returning from injury. He will either play the Pittas role or the Faraj role when returning.
Currently not far into my testing, but went through the cup (played during pre-season) without conceding a single goal through 5 games, so it is looking promising. Will report back when I have more tangible results.
Really nice write-up! Good tactical analysis and well-realized realistic recreation in the game. Just the way I like it
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9 minutes ago, julle17 said:
Well that was what i was thinking, but my players just never do them. I've tried loads of different combinations of instructions to make it happen, whether it's leave the role as default, tell it cross more, apply the early cross team instruction, my players just refuse to cross from the half space.
These are my cross maps for my last 3 games, and the one from 10 that looks like the right position, didn't actually seem like a cross when watching it back, was more of a through ball, not sure why it counted as a cross.
This is what i've been trying recently, the Mez on support has cross more often instruction aswell.
You have to take off hit early crosses instruction. It will cause your fullbacks to be the primary crossers in the formation. To get the mezzalas to cross you will need to slow the pace of the tactic to allow the ball time to get to your midfielders.
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54 minutes ago, Fieldsy said:
Can you make a cm(a) act like a mezzalla with player instructions (minus playing wider) or are the ‘under the hood’ instructions mean this is not possible?
It won't behave exactly like Mezzala. There is a good reason why Mezzala is such a good role in the game.
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Just now, EnigMattic1 said:
Would the preferred formation of your HoYD have any effect on the sort of players that would appear in the youth intake?
Yes that's probably the only example of a staff where favourite formation matters. But I thought you meant only coaches who are involved in the training.
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12 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:
Let's just say you prefer to play a 4-3-3 DM Wide. In an ideal world, you would have top level coaches with the same preferred formation.
But...
What would you do if you played a formation that wasn't a typical formation? Like, a strikerless formation, an asymmetrical formation or a Total Voetbol recreation. What formation would you look for in your coaches in that scenario?
Favoured formation for your coaches has absolutely no connection to how well your players develop from training. I still like to hire coaches whose fave formation is my team's formation for pure flavour/roleplay effect. Aside from your Assistant Coach who you will want to take over if you ever go on holiday or just sim the games.
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5 hours ago, chris.jeeves said:
Hello there. First-time poster / long-time lurker loving this thread and learnt a lot, especially from @crusadertsar
My Deportivo la Coruna side has just been promoted to La Liga in our 2nd season. Back-to-back promotions are great but need a robust tactic for the top flight. The Board have said I need to play in a Defensively sound, counter-attacking and set piece-utilising style.
With this in mind, I have developed the following tactic trying to imbue it with what I have learnt here.
I am using the following PI's:
- FB (A) — Run wide with ball
- FB (S) — Cross more / Run wide with ball
- CD (D) - Both Fewer risks
- DM (S) — Direct pass / More risks / Hold position / Close down more / Tackle harder
- CM (S) — Close more / Tackle Harder
- CM (A) —More risks / Dribble more / Close More / Tackle Harder
- IF (S) — Sit narrower / Tackle Harder / Mark tightly
- IW (S) —Tackle Harder / mark tighter
- AF — Tackle Harder
To aid the Trap inside I will be asking players to show the opposition wide players onto their weaker foot
A big summer rebuild is on the cards with £6m to spend. Above is my squad for next year minus players retiring / contracts expiring. I have the following players joining on free transfers:
- Will Fish — DC, Man Utd
- Roberto Lopez — AM, Real San Senastien
- Sebastiano Esposito — AM St, Inter
- Alvaro Valles — GK, Las Palmas
Any input/suggestions to improve the tactic are greatly welcomed as I am a bit of a novice, thanks!
Looks like a very nicely balanced tactic mate! I don't think you will have trouble staying up, especially if you improve your players to match the division. Eventually, you might have difficulty breaking down more defensive sides, especially as your reputation improves.
For those times I would maybe switch one or both of your fullbacks to wingback role to improve your overlaps and give better support to your forwards. A very good BPD in the backline could do wonders too with his timely long balls to kick-start counterattacks. In terms of instructions I would play wider and with lower tempo when facing those pesky parked buses. But for now enjoy the promotion! La Liga is an amazing competitive division. It's never boring haha.
And Roberto Lopez is an excellent attacking midfielder. I managed him for 4 seasons at Real Sociedad before replacing him with a better newgen.
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2 hours ago, marknwn said:
Thank you for your reply. For me, a mezzala is a center midfielder who works in the half spaces/channels.
What I want to see is a center midfielder that moves to the sidelines and make overlapping run like a fullback or wingback, especially when I am using a inverted fullback and the inside forward cutting inside and occupying the half spaces.
Well unfortunately the only way to attempt to replicate what you want is with Mezzala. Especially with one that has specific traits like "runs along left/right flank". No other role is programmed to go wide like Mezzala is. You cannot really instruct a generic midfielder to do what Mezzala does, much less to actually run along a flank.
And again like I said before with the right traits and in a narrow formations, Mezzala will go much wider then a half space.
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Play him in Mezzala role. Simple. Especially in a narrow tactic with no wingers.
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10 minutes ago, vrig said:
You can find comments from Klopp and Salah at the time where it's stated that his job was to play as close to the opposition CBs as possible. That tells you straight off the bat that playing him as an AF would be a good starting point.
If I remember correctly, they also saw their system as more of a 442/4411 than the 433 people commonly put it down as. Personally I always thought it was a diamond, given how deep Firmino played and how narrow the 'wide' forwards always were.
The point is that if you can't emulate a winger scoring 44 goals in a season, it might be because they were never really a winger in the first place.
Exactly, unless you are Ronaldo, wingers/inside forwards don't generally score 44 goals in a season. That's true in real life and in FM too. Curiously, the narrow diamond would also be my assessment of Liverpool in that era.
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On 09/04/2024 at 06:54, Swaban said:
Its time to manage Real Sociedad & become the dominant force in Basque football, making sure to sign as many promising Basque talents as possible to keep them away from Athletic Bilbao
That's exactly what I'm doing
it's Summer 2029 in my save and Real Sociedad is completely Basque. Got some wonderful newgens too.
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@trym.jorg If you want him to score like young Salah then by all means don't play him in a wide attacker role
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40 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:
Double IFB(d) + a Libero(d) is a more stable shape than using an inverted wingback (s), which creates a weak point for the opposition to attack.
That's been my favourite back four set up in FM24. Works very well in both 433 and 4231. And allowed to take my Real Sociedad to the next level in competing with the big three in La Liga.
I'm in 2029 now, and good newgen IFBs are much easier to find than good WBs or IWBs. I just retrain CBs and strong DMs mostly. It's very helpful when playing with Basque-only policy.
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18 minutes ago, dzek said:
I’m looking exactly the opposite thing, which means a role which gets further forward but don’t push IW/IF out wide.
Get Further Forward PI affects the starting position of the player when his team has the ball?
No it increases the frequency of forward runs. But the defensive position should still remain the same, the player will be spending less time there because he will be focusing more on getting forward at every opportunity.
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37 minutes ago, dzek said:
Hi Cleon,
I have a question. Knowing that with the roles rotating from DM to AM due to positional play this year, if you instruct the RGA to get further forward will it affect the IW/IF position and keep them more wide on the field or is that not the case?
Regista is not affected by positional play changes. Also even with "get further" instruction regista never gets into AM strata. What you are looking for is Roaming Playmaker in DM position. It will get up into AM strata and push IW/IF wide.
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Don't pay any attention to it. If the player is good enough (because of his attributes) to fill role in my tactic, I don't care if he has 3 or 4 stars, ect. As long as he is the best choice for it.
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football manager tactics
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
Yes