dan_bre_1988
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Posts posted by dan_bre_1988
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On 02/03/2020 at 10:33, rootcoors said:
Just wanted to give an update on the evolution of this tactic.
Thank's again for all the feedback, and not trying to single anyone out but added thanks to the constant feedback from @Experienced Defender
Watching match highlights, assessing results etc... I was able to see that the RB position was just not working, the IWB-S, was good when we was going forward but was a struggle when then trying to defend - understand some of this will be down to the defender himself, but the positioning just didn't sit right with me.
Also from watching the highlights can see why CM-A was equally not working, although again in attack he was helpful when defending he was too far up the pitch. Its good to remember we are a team expected to avoid relegation, so being solid at the back is always going to be vital.
When losing possession counter-pressing seemed to be again leaving us more exposed, I tried removing it at first which did improve things, but I actually found adding re-group and getting the players to get back and then press made much more sense, especially against bigger teams.
Shorter passing also wasn't working, I needed my faster players to run onto the ball, I have a pacy front 3 and 2 in the middle, so whilst shorter passing did allow us to keep possession, which again can be helpful against bigger teams and is something I do manually change to if I feel the need I decided that playing more direct and passing into space might work better (not fully testing this yet - but initial signs seem okay).
You will see I also removed run at defence.... mainly because whilst we did a lot of running at the defence nothing seemed to come out of it as an end result. Taking it off hasn't really improved that as such, but at least my players take a moment now to think about a pass before just darting off.
Using FB's instead of WB's has mainly come into play as it makes us more solid at the back from what I have seen. The W-A and FB-A provide the most balls forward and forwards the box, with the CAR-S covering the RB area when the FB-A does go forward.
Lastly playing Bowen (arguably my best player) on the left side when he wants to be on the right, he wants to be an IF and he wants to attack, was clearly a move that was not thought out well and going completely against my best players strengths.
I am still playing with the roles and TI's as things evolve, this could just be something that continuously happens over time with match engine changes, player changes... and obviously when playing against other teams.
The overall tactic is now more structured, but again for a team trying to become and established premier league team with the aim currently of consistent mid table finishes this isn't a bad thing - we will win, draw and lose - the idea being that we should be happy enough (as things stand) to finish somewhere between 8th-14th - yes it would be nicer to finisher higher, and obviously the end goal is to eventually be Premier League champions but lets not get ahead of ourselves. We still can't bring in high enough calibre players, but this will change - and as it does the tactic will then evolve I am sure.
Any feedback as always is appreciated - thanks for reading this rather long post.
How have you found your striker? Have you been able to create many good chances for him? I'm in league 1 but same formation (except I play a cm in DM strata) and I struggle creating too much for my St. He scores goals but tends to be through good work from him than the team.
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19 hours ago, XuluBak said:
Truthfully, I suspect you're finding feedback hard to come by because: 1) you posted photos instead of screenshots, which are harder to read; and 2) it seems like every other thread is about 433 (4123 or 4141DM wide, w/e you wanna call it), so there's 'feedback fatigue' for 433 tactics.
This is because I only have it for the switch unfortunately.
Yes, you could be right. It is a very popular tactic but the only one I can get some kind of success with haha
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27 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:
Well, I'll tell you what first I would change/tweak (putting the "more urgent" pressing aside for the moment as it's of secondary importance).
Roles and duties:
DLFsu
IFsu Wat
DLPsu CMat
Ade
FBat CDde CDde FBsu
The key change here is the striker's duty and (partly also role). Other changes need not be literally the ones I proposed. For example, you can keep the DLP on defend duty in DM if that's so much important to you, but you definitely need a more holding/covering type of role in MCL (carrilero or BWM on support). Not only to provide defensive cover for your attacking LB, but also for better balance in attack.
Team instructions? I would start with only Distribute to CBs and FBs. Everything else would basically be just small tweaks.
Thanks for the tips. Will let you know how I go. I've actually got players to play anchor now so will try that. I did play an anchor at my previous job at Morecombe and worked well during promotion season. DLPd was purely because I didn't have anyone suitable for anchor role.
Striker I've sort of flicked between the DLFs and PFa. The latter because it's his preferred role and I was finding he was dropping too deep as DLFs but maybe I need to accept he's not going to be the focal point for goals.
WBa to FBa is an interesting one... What's the difference between the 2 in how they operate?
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Ok, still not really sure what I can change to help but cheers anyway...
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8 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:
I haven't mistaken you with anyone. And I remember this setup very well, it was also with Portsmouth. When I - among other suggestions - told you to try without more urgent pressing (in relation to the context of the tactic as a whole), you refused to even give it a try. And then I gave up on trying to help.
Which is absolutely okay - you have every right not to follow suggestions people give you, because it's your team and your tactic
Would this help in relation to creating better chances? If so, what's the theory behind it?
Apologies if that's how it comes across, I did try take suggestions into consideration and I changed my tactic accordingly. I'll try leaving it on standard pressing and see how it goes, just interested in the theory behind it?
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48 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:
I am always looking to help, but honestly - I am rather hesitant in this case. Because from my experience with your previous threads, I've noticed that you tend to be stubborn in refusing to apply suggestions people give you. You ask for help, then people - me included - offer you advice, but you then keep insisting on your tactical "principles", however problematic they may be.
That's the only reason I did not want to waste my time by trying to help to no avail.
Sorry, I think you may have me mistaken with somebody else.
Below is the first set up I had originally on last post. I applied what people suggested and got the tactic above. As you can see, I now have an attack minded WB, runner from CM and winger now on attack as well as role changes in CM. I also tried a suggestion of turning off 'work ball into box' (albeit this still shows on screenshot below as it didn't work, it just led to ridiculous shots from my CMs from 30yrds. The only thing I didn't change is more urgent pressing as I'm not conceding a lot of chances/goals. I did reply on original thread but no reply which is why I started a new one.
I agree, my results are very good and I'm happy with the start but also know I've been a bit lucky. For eg I've won 2 games 1 0 because of direct free kicks and every game I don't seem to create more than 1 or 2 CCCs/half chances per game. I don't know whether it's all my tactics, if the players just not good enough in off the ball stats etc or a mix of both.
I don't consider myself a 'stubborn' man. I don't play the game regularly and certainly don't profess to be great at it so I always take any advice into consideration and at least try it for a couple of games.
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C'mon guys. Can nobody at all offer any kind of input
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Bump...
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I'm doing very well currently but I realise that unless I fix my obvious issues, it will soon change and I'll soon start losing games.
I am finding it hard to create good chances regularly, often only creating 1 or 2 CCCs and/or half chances a game so relying on individual magic a bit. I have tried alsorts of different roles and duties to try create better opportunities.
Please pick apart my current set up...
The basics I want out of my team if it helps analyse is to dominate possession with short passing building up from the back but also want progressive passing as don't want to pass around aimlessly. Defensively, I want to press to allow me to win back possession and carry on dominating the game.
I usually have mentality set to balanced, just tried positive to see what impact it had and the answer was not much.
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So I've had a great start to the season, winning 10 games on the bounce Inc pre season. I don't like the lack of chances however.
My theory of how I want to play:
In possession
Play in a patient manner. Short passing but at a standard tempo (I want to dominate the ball but without just passing it around aimlessly in the middle third)
I want my DMC to literally just screen the back 4 and allow my WBs to get forward. AMR to stay high and wide ready to receive the ball and get to byline for a cross or dribble inside to create chances. Fb right on support as I want him to get forward and contribute but also have a defensive element to allow my cm to provide a runner from midfield to get past the striker and offer an option. Similarly on the left, I want the CM left to provide defensive cover to allow the AML to drift inside and link up with the striker and my LB left to bomb forward and create 2v1 situations and deliver crosses. My problem is what to do with striker. As with previous games using this system, I am finding it difficult to get him involved enough and creating good chances for him. My current thinking is by having him as a DLFs he won't get isolated by being too far forward but he would (hopefully) drag cbs out of position to allow my cm and IF to get into the vacated space and/or getting into the box for crosses but it doesn't seem to be working that way.
Out of possession
My cbs aren't blessed with pace so I don't want to defend high up. At the same time, defending in a low block isn't ideal either as I want to be on the ball a lot, not waiting for opposition to lose it so more urgent pressing gives me the chance to press the opposition to try win the ball back without being overly aggressive and gifting space for them to counter in.
Does this look sound logically? Is there any changes you guys would make to more accurately reflect the style I'm trying to implement? What role should I give my striker?
(Please excuse the poor quality pictures. I play FM touch for the switch so have to upload pictures taken off my phone!
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Like above, my default is 2 fast players on edge of box and staying forward for counter.
Defensively, I have full backs on post (unless they are tall, in which case I swap with a small cm or someone with poor marking)
3 tall players set to near centre and far marking zonally and the others set on 'go back' although if one or more of them have good defending stats I will have them man mark
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So since the OP, I finished the season. Came 4th and got beat in playoffs by Wigan.
Played pre season and 2 league games so far. Winning every game except 2nd league game where I lost 1 0 to Colchester. Some issues still remain though in my (changed) tactic.
Taking into consideration the advice above, I decided to set up slightly more attacking for the new season. Now playing the following (still in same shape as above with TIs)
Gk- defend
FB (R) support
CD defend
CD defend
WB (L) attack
DLP defend
Carrilero (left CM)
CM attack
Winger (right) attack
IF (left) support
DLF (s) or pressing forward attack
I'm still struggling to create many CCCs or even half chances. I'm winning a lot of games and having a lot of shots but it's through individual brilliance rather than creating GOOD chances and my striker doesn't really have many chances in either role. Any tips welcome!
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4 hours ago, Jaydenoren said:
First of all, thanks for your advice. I've now constructed a new tactic which has the same formation but a different style of play.
Would appreciate any tips on how to make this tactic better before going to any matches and reviewing it myself.
I'm not a fan of your right hand side. It seems VERY attacking. A Mezzala and Winger who are constantly trying to do all their work in the final third with a fb who sometimes gets forward when you have steady possession. This leaves you very susceptible to the counter down that side.
A couple of solutions to this problem... You could swap your mez and carrilero around so carrilero provides some cover in wide areas but your mez and IF would try occupy the same space so may not be great. Another option is to change winger to support, IF to attack and have WB on support at left back. With this set up, you give yourself opportunity to have 2v1s down the left hand side with the carrilero offering cover. I agree above, support from midfield is definitely required when playing with a lone striker or they will end up isolated.
The instructions you have seem to contradict what you're trying to achieve. You have slightly more direct passing, pass into space and counter in transition so you want to play on the break but then you have higher defensive line which is causing your team to try and squeeze the play. Result of this is that the space is reduced for your pass and counter opportunities. Counter is more related to a low block where you sit in and let the opposition come onto you and then break quickly to exploit the space. I'd start by seeing how you're conceding goals and try fix that first. Pick up draws if you have to and the wins will follow once you're defensively sound.
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I've always found fast tempo with shorter passing doesn't really work unless you're one of the top major teams. I don't know Swindon (I think that's who you are looking at the badge lol) but it's very unlikely many of your players actually have the technical ability to play this.
I agree with a post above, strip everything down and just have the basic instructions for the style you want. Don't overcomplicate it with lots of instructions. Try standard tempo instead of high too. It's a very frantic setup you've got that's very demanding on your players. In possession you're wanting to be aggressive with a lot of quick passing but out of possession you're wanting to push high and really press aggressively. Poor form could also be partly down to pure fatigue of your players. I'd suggest trying toning down being quite so aggressive either offensively or defensively. Again, it's doubtful your players are capable of playing in such an aggressive hell for leather style of play.
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13 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:
Okay, you play the way you like. I am just saying that, for me personally, such type of instruction poses a greater defensive risk than having no defend duty in a midfield triangle of the 4123 system. Of course, there is a difference between pressing urgency under different mentalities and different levels of compactness. But that's another story.
No I understand that and appreciate your input!
Maybe I am being a bit naive. I don't always play FM and I certainly don't profess to be amazing at it! The mentality I always leave as balanced and try to fine tune from there what I want the team to do. I don't understand enough what changing to cautious or attacking for eg actually does. At a guess I'd say it's a general instruction to alter all of the teams width, defensive line, pressing and mentality of all the players.
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2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:
You don't need a CM on
defend. If you want to have a DLP on support in DM, you can play one CM as a carrilero or BWM on support (on the side of the more attacking fullback) and the other as a CM on attack (or mezzala, if you have a suitable player for the role).When it comes to your defensive concerns, I would be much more wary of your more urgent pressing than the lack of a defend duty in your midfield.
Why's that? Just because of the risk of them being pulled out of position? To be honest it's one of them instructions I've just always used as I absolutely hate conceding goals where someone hasn't been closed down and can easily cross/through ball.
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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:
As long as you distribute them in a sensible manner and keep your overall tactical balance, I don't see why having 3 attack duties would be a problem under the Balanced mentality.
I don't see an anchor man in your tactic. I personally would rather have an anchor or DM on defend in the DM position, and DLP on support in central midfield. But you use a DLPsu in DM, not the anchor. So I am now confused.
This is what I meant originally by not having a natural holding player. I only have a couple of guys capable of playing there. One guy is too good not to start but his stats don't suit a pure defensive mid but he has good play making abilities and is 'capable' of doing a job defensively so I tried to squeeze him in as a DLP in DM strata. I've also considered/considering putting a CM on defend and DLP on support with the other CM on attack.
I need to sign someone specifically for that role but window is shut. I'm in March now to be fair so don't need to wait too long (took over half way through the season)
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10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:
The distribution of duties is as important as their overall number (if not even more important).
What exactly do you mean by the "natural holding player"?
Okay, but the "GFF" PI is not equivalent to attack duty. It does encourage a bit more forward runs from the player, but does not increase his mentality.
So you think having 3 attack duties would be ok? Or best saved for more defensive teams?
I didn't describe my mid very well... Usually when I set up with this formation I have an anchor or someone who will literally just sit and screen the back 4 which then gives me more confidence in letting both fbs bomb forward rather than just the one I currently have. I did have DLPd but found he was a bit too defensive and I didn't have much creativity in midfield so by having him on support he sits that bit higher up and has license to have a bit more of an expansive passing range.
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3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:
The key problem with this tactic IMHO is a lack of tactical identity. It's not clear what a majority of players are supposed to do, why and when. The only idea that appears to be obvious is that you (probably) want the AMR (winger) to deliver crosses for the AML and striker. But everything else is pretty much undefined.
The setup of roles and duties would make more sense if the right CM was on attack duty
15 minutes ago, biglew90 said:I agree with @Experienced Defenderthink your left side is good your right side could do with a tweak and you midfield needs a rethink.
On the right both players are on support it’s a bit blunt, you could possibly have an overload on that side like you have on the other side with the wingback just by changing a duty. Especially as you have the wide TI set.
The reason I say midfield needs a rethink is all 3 are on support and all 3 are quite static roles. You have a lone front man with no runners to support him in the box. Think about how to get a player to support him but then think about possibly supporting the defence in a transition if you push players forwards.
Thanks for the replies, guys.
You're both alluding to the same issue and it is something I've thought about. My problem is thinking too many attack duties would have an adverse affect as it would be too attacking? I may try my winger on an attack duty and IF on support since he will still have the support of a WB to create 2v1s. In terms of midfield, I really don't know how to set up. I don't have a natural holding player which is why I have a DLP to create from deep and dictate play.
Getting around my worry about too many attack duties is why I have one CM PI set to 'get further forward' so he can support attacks and my striker DLFa as support he comes too deep for my liking and literally gets no chances. Against better teams willing to attack I've used him as a poacher to take advantage of space left in behind.
In terms of style (although it appears this isn't what's being achieved) is to play a possession style of football with my winger putting in crosses (trait is cut inside so still gets in box) and IF cutting in for shooting/through balls as well as a presence for crosses from RW and then a CM to try get in the box/lurk around too.
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Hi guys,
Playing as Portsmouth and although I regularly have plenty of shots on goal, I'm struggling for consistency and clear cut chances in games. Last 2 games have illustrated this perfectly where I beat top of the league Ipswich 6 0 at home but then drew 1 1 away at 2nd from bottom Oxford. Very frustrating!
I've attached my tactic below, any advice appreciated! In terms of PIs, I've kept it quite basic. Got my wide men and one CM set to 'get further forward'
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Thanks for the replies guys. I always thought under the hood, the scouts would scout and opposition would tailor tactics to counter yours.
I'm still a bit confused why 1 defeat in ages has led to such a downturn in form. Maybe it is just that teams are now setting off slightly more defensive and exposing my lack of quality going forward. I will try some more attacking roles. The problem I have though is my striker tends to get isolated when on attack duty so idea behind support duties was to attack and defend as a team/one solid unit. I also don't want too many attack duties as I'm a limited team ability wise so don't think that would work out well at all. I'll try having my IF and ST on attack and possibly a cm...
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7 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:
In short - you have no penetration.
Thanks for the reply but not sure that's really that helpful. What can I do to have more penetration?
Why would it take until January to start going on a terrible run when I've been winning 90% of my games the first half of the season? I know people will probably say that scouts have worked my team out or whatever but it feels unrealistic that teams from up the top with me and down near the bottom have all figured out to an extent where everyone can beat me now.
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Hi guys,
Looking for some advice. Been absolutely flying this season in League 2. Top of the league. Looking unbeatable. Fa Cup 3rd round comes... Away at Leicester. Lose (predictably) then BAM! Team in freefall... Losing 5 out of the last 7 games. Tactically I've not changed anything pre match. The only thing I change is sometimes try press higher and have a higher defensive block if chasing a game/getting dominated.
Nothing I'm doing currently is working and it's starting to become very frustrating. Stopped creating many chances and a once reliable defense is now more like a pod of dolphins- all at sea!
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Hi guys,
Just wondering what the impact is of changing tactics? I currently play a 433 but have toyed with the idea of playing a 532 in big games such as if I get a hard draw in a cup (currently playing as a relative minnow)
Can my players adapt to do this effectively or will it be detrimental to their performance?
I guess what I'm really asking is if the game punishes you for being adaptable as a manager (thinking more Mourinho style management vs Pep for eg)
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Tactical frameworks and squad building - an in depth guide to how I approach FM.
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
Fantastic post. Can't believe I've only just come across this. Thanks for taking time to do this @sporadicsmiles
I had a similar tactic except a couple of roles. You've made me realise that designing a tactic really is logical and simple at it's basics and doesn't need to be complicated. I loved the way you stripped it back and simply asked 'what do I want my team to do? How am I going to firstly create the space and then exploit it?
I really struggled even 4th season in with 2 clubs to create enough chances with the lone striker in this formation but using what you spoke about in this thread my first game my striker got a first half hat trick (albeit 1 being a penalty) but it's the first time in a long time that my player has had a hat trick so thank you!!