Gegenklaus

March 12, 2019

Pure quality. Amazing post.

March 11, 2019

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

... if you take time to make changes to playing league managers' attributes it's almost like real football.

Could you perhaps make that database available? I would like to try it out.

March 4, 2019

26 minutes ago, arsenal3459 said:

this tactic still works wonders

using it in fm19 with both top flight and lower league sides.

currently doing a no badge journeyman save and this tactic has me winning the league by a mile in malaysia at the moment.

happy to post how i translated it into fm19 if anyone is interested.

I would love to see that. Especially what mentality you landed on.

February 23, 2019

Good work @Trimisiyu.

Do you switch between mentalities? Or is there one you use more than others?

February 20, 2019

My Dortmund side are doing quite well doing the second season. So teams starts being REALLY defensive. Like this Zenit-side:

"Ait, boys go for the space at the corner flags!"

February 19, 2019

God, I love the look of that 4-1-4-1, Cleon. And fantastic read. Can't wait for your deeper analysis.

February 4, 2019

5 minutes ago, wkdsoul said:

Yeah, i cant wait to see some breakdown articles on it online at somepoint.. incredible positional awareness

Indeed. Also shows Fernandinho versatility. Incredible.

8 hours ago, Ivan787 said:

How about using a flat 3 in midfield to make the two 8s split more in the channel?

That makes sense. And it can probably work well with PPM Comes Deep and the Play Out Defense TI.

February 4, 2019

39 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

Let me come back to original intent of this thread, which was to try to emulate Pep's tactic and style of play at Man City.

After 8 pages of thread we have write a lot of concepts, but it seems that if some aspect are well developed, others still remain dark and hidden.

Let's start from what we have assured, and more or less confirmed by Pep in some interviews.

1. Starting line-up is always 4-3-3 which in FM terms could be translated in 4-1-4-1 or 4-1-2-2-1. In my firsts experiments i used 4-1-4-1 by after re-watching some match I'm not convinced to this. Sanè and Sterling track back a lot, but in my opinion they are definitely forwards and not midfielders. I suppose that AML or AMR with high work rate could track back enough.

2. During build-up from keeper the key concept is to have one extra man. If the opponent plays with lone forward, Man City use the two centrebacks and Fernandinho is positioned in front of them, with two inverted wing backs on both sides, in a 2-3 system. If opponent plays with two forwards Fernandinho usually acts like an Half Back, yet with two IWBs, but this time in a 3-2 system.

3. Passing develop is (in this phase) very calmy and safety, with the main target that is to find a player (often De Bruyne or Silva) in the half space.

This is more o less what is "fixed" in the first phases of build-up from the back, and is easily replicable.

Than all changes, when the ball arrives to the half spaces, suddenly all change: tempo increases, passing risk increases, movement is constant, and players have more creative freedom. Sometimes (often in match against mid-low table team) the attacking pattern is with Sanè on the left and Sterling on the right, but against top team, in particular in the first weeks of the league, the preferred pattern was with Sterling on the left and Mahrez on the right. Against Liverpool it was more similar 3-1 with Silva acting as a true "10", when Mendy plays he can act like a classic "wingback".

If you observe well these are all patterns that is possible to create from a 4-1-4-1 or 4-1-2-2-1 lineup. The only thing that is fixed, also in the attack phase, is "a lot of players can ENTER in the penalty area, nobody can STAY in the penalty area". Man City always get at least 3 players in the penalty area, but in the build-up phase nobody is inside.

Really good post. So to move on we can say there is a clear split of the individual mentality of the attacking unit (wingers, midfielders and strikers) and the defensive one. I am also being more convinced that we maybe should use a 4-1-2-2-1 (classic 4-3-3) in FM instead of the 4-1-4-1. The wingers need to be high and wide and put pressure on the opponents fullbacks simply because of the position they take. The two midfielders need to move high up as well.

So, how do we make that mentality split? Where do we start?

February 4, 2019

6 hours ago, wkdsoul said:

Ok, well todays positional play and formation threw a right spanner in my understanding of what Pep is up to.... A back 3, 1 cb and fernadinho playing a half back role...

Quite clever wasnt it. Defended as a sort of 4-4-2ish/4-1-4-1 shape. In posssion 3-2-5, so three players in the first line against Arsenal’s two striker. It was also a solution to their problems with having a decent left back. Back three and double pivot meant possession could be secured relatively while 5 players broke ahead. I often saw de Bruyne and Silva on line with Aguero. And it is amazing to see the work rate of Sterling and B. Silva. Their ability to track back/press often gave de Bruyne and D. Silva to get back into position.

If only we could have a striker move like Aguero in FM - often dropping off and link play centrally and on the wings.

February 2, 2019

12 minutes ago, 04texag said:

Such a great thread. I really appreciate the time and effort, and the way @herne79 broke down the posts with information, giving it slowly so that we had to think about each piece.

One thing I have not seen discussed much is team width. I've found this can make a huge difference in style of play, and makes a big difference when change in combination with passing length.

Also, when you are playing against a bus, with a high LOE and defensive line, you basically are cutting yourself off of space if you are in their third the whole game. You can give yourself more space by either setting a wider width or adjusting the line back some.

Good point. Could you expand a bit on this? What have you tried?

February 1, 2019

16 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

Let me complicate the things a bit.

We are writing from some weeks about 2-3-5 build-up pattern, and this seems the most used in the last period. But is not the only one used.

What happens when Mahrez (and Mendy) plays? The things change a lot because Mahrez is left-footed and he plays on the right, so with "inverted foot". Who plays at the right side? Sterling right footed.

Sterling cuts inside with a free role, Mendy bombs forwards and the MC should drop deep......again 2-3-5 but different players, different interpretation, different pattern.

Yes, that has been my whole point all the time. The system changes with the players, but the attacking shape remains the same - generally speaking. That is why I think that creating the 2-3-5 shape regularly (as in you see it happen in the match engine, 5 players breaking ahead of the ball carrier, trying to find space between the lines) is the most important aspect.

February 1, 2019

7 hours ago, kurupted said:

First of all, your thread about attacking possession has bases and principles that people know for many years, you are not the first one who says we cant control the risk the play is willing to commit by changing roles and mentalitys, just to remember, the thread you created isn't something that is new to 90% FM players.

The second thing is, i'm not making specific and incorrect statements, there are simply things you can't replicate in FM what happens in real-life, and one thing, is how City players have such a defensive line and their behaviour with the ball, there are movements and "roles" that players in real life do that you simply CAN NOT translate into the game, DS or KDB in 5 minutes can look like an AP and all of a sudden they are a "RPM", there are micro adjustments that coachs do that you can not do in FM, period. Playing with such a higher defensive line is one of them.

The high possession stats you talked about is another thing, everybody can create a heavy possession base tactic using simple instructions and roles, that isn't difficult at all is it ?

The other thing i wanted to say to you, is how you lack the knowledge of a tactical setup, when i said that playing high defensive line you get slaughtered, i wasn't totaly wrong, i dare you to play a high defensive line against strikers that have more pace than your defenders and i want to see if you don't get slaughtered. More important than Pace is the player tactical intelligence, even having fast defenders ISNT ENOUGH to play a high defensive line. You just need 1 or 2 strikers (pacey ones) that can do a run behind and you will automaticaly see what i mean

Kurupted, why do you deal in such absolutes? “You cant do x because of y”? It is like you don’t understand the ground essence of FM. You can get to a through b, c, e and so on. Nothing is set in stone. You can play a really high line if you got the players for it. Many here on the forums has done it.

I have tried telling you that you won’t be able to get everything from real life City into FM. You write it yourself, and I have been where you have been - trying to get everything into one tactic and it got frustrating because it can’t be done - or I have not been able to. Instead I began focusing on certain aspects - like the wing play and the 2-3-5 shape they use to attack with. One thing I have not been able to get right is the possession part - which is quite essential - and @herne79‘s post helped me a lot in how I could distribute duties, roles and how it interacts with mentality and instructions.

January 31, 2019

@herne79, how do you find your goalkeeper's distribution. I notice that you don't specifically tell him where to distribute the ball on goalkicks. Does he kick it long often or what do you see?

January 31, 2019

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

1. Get an extra man in defence
2. Get the extra man in midfield
3. Get the extra man in attack.

Hello, Pep.

January 29, 2019

@herne79 did I understand your latest post that correctly, saying you have been using the Dribble Less TI? If so, could you expand a little further about your experiences with it? Whenever I have tried using it I always had a hard time spotting any difference.

January 28, 2019

2 hours ago, kurupted said:

Lol, you are playing Barcelona, show your results against top teams in Europe If you play against a pacey Striker or wingers you get s-l-a-u-g-h-t-e-r-e-d.

Nope, Guardiola style is not risky, in fact is very low risk, they play a slow football, just like he did in Barcelona, they pass the ball and pass the ball and wait for a breach, but if they don't find it, they just "reset" the play.

You guys need to understand something, there are thing we CANT simply replicate in Football Manager. One aspect is the question about Mezzalas, yes, the mezzala does stay in the half-space, but both DS and KDB dont stay in the half-space everytime, there are games that they simply can't play in the half space. The other thing is the defensive line, City away from home can play with a high defensive line, try that in FM 2019 and see what happens

The other thing, most important of all that people forget is the MATCH ENGINE. Want to have 70-75% possession ? Fine, but that means you don't create score chances. This is not FM2012 when with certain tactics you have heavy possession regarding the team your are playing. The more possession you have the less risk you play, in FM, that translates into few scoring chances.

I have played a high line with weaker sides against top sides, and I dont automatically get slaughtered. You can get absolutely anything to work if you got the right players and right setup. There are plenty of ways to skin a cat.

You also gotta take into account that possession is calculated differently in FM than in real life. Check out @herne79 thread with his tiki-taka 4-3-3. He has plenty of passes completed and attempted and scoring lots of goals from open play. Its absolutely possible and his thread has gotten me thinking in a whole new way about FM19 and how to setup duties - because we dont have team shape anymore.

January 28, 2019

Show us the way to the holy grail!

January 28, 2019

God, I need to see your system, @herne79, from which you do the changes. Your numbers and stats are really impressive - so is your overall approach.

January 28, 2019

4 hours ago, Ivan787 said:

There are 3 key factors in replicating Guardiola style: squad build up (remember that he need specific player not so common to find on the market), match flexibility, tactical solution (in FM terms). Now we are focusing more on the last aspect, but in the future I think it will be necessary to speak also about the others.

I made some tests yesterday and it seems that using playmakers (AP) instead of Mez improve a lot the build-up and the movements in the final third, so thank you very much Kurupted for this idea.

Also I think that is founded a solution for the different approach in the build-up (cautious) and in the final third. The key is definitely Individual Mentality: there are a lot of action you can do to have some players in Positive or Offensive mentality even if you are playing with Cautious TI.

The first way is using Cautious TI and setting attack duty for both wingers and one AP. Their mentality rises up to Positive. In this particular approach there is the issue about the forward, because if you set him with a support duty his mentality drops down to "defensive" and this means a very low risk in any action he will do. Not really what i want.

So there is the "inverse" solution: setting equilibrate or positive mentality and setting defenders and DM with defend duty and "Take fewer risk". Their mentality will drops down below positive, and this could lead to cautious build-up, also mantaing more aggressive plays at wingers and attackers.

Personally I like very much to have Silva role as AP-A with roam from position and get further forward, but I'm not still happy about wingers role. I have to decide between wingers(S) and Wide midfielders.

How do you find using two playmaker roles in midfield? Are thye coming close to each other?

January 28, 2019

8 hours ago, zlatanera said:

I signed Timo Werner for £50m, in his first 3 games he scored 2,1 and 2 goals...that was August, its nearing November and he hasn't scored again. The easy thing to do would be to blame the ME, but I like to think that perhaps he's just going to be my Dortmund team's equivalent of every striker Chelsea have spent a large sum of money on since Drogba, and just not work out. It adds realism to have a player just not perform despite harmony in the dressing room and a good tactical setup, as occasionally these things do happen.

Although if he doesn't make double figures by the end of the season with the amount of chances we're creating, perhaps there will be something up.

Amen. Does he get some good chances (not counting one on ones, as they tend to get saved in this ME)?

I have the same with Paco Alcacer, gets plenty of good chances, but doesnt convert them.

January 25, 2019

16 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

I have to try, because unfortunately during last weeks I have a lot of work so I can't play. But yes, in my opinion is possible and the key should be individual mentality.

As you know there is a team mentality, and an individual mentality that could be very different from the one setted with TI. You can play with cautious TI but have a winger on positive mentality. There is a very good tutorial of Rashidi about this.

Now i don't have too much time to explain how I think to approach it, but I promise I write some attempts as soon as possible.

You just gave me an idea: Back 5 with defend and support duties on cautious mentality - front 5 on attack duties - maybe not the striker. Thats interesting. de Bruyne’s PPM’s will make him drop off. God, I cant play for the next couple of days, but thanks man. That is a really interesting concept.

January 25, 2019

2 hours ago, Ivan787 said:

I'm very interested in trying the configuration with two Advanced Playmaker that kurupted suggests, because I suppose that using APs could be the solution.

Yesterday I review last match of Man City and is very evident the splitting between support (build-up) players and attacking players.

In the first phase there is a slow build up phase between Ederson, CBs, Fernandinho and IWBs....this phase, that could be assimiled to "defensive" phase, because keeping possession is a very strong form of defensive game, is as long as is possible to find one of the 5 attacker (often KDB or Silva, but also Sane or Aguero) in the space. If you see the stats you will find that the two CBs are always the player which complete more passes than every other players on the pitch. This is the first difference from Barcelona, where often Xavi was the player with more passes completed.

Than, after that phase, there is a sort of "switching" of the play. It seems that you have a switch to turn ON and OFF the attacking phase. The ball moves to one player in the half space and from this moment, (in the most cases), the "back five" stop to be active and all is assigned to the 5 attackers. In this case using the two APs could help to achieve this configuration where the two 8s become the main passing threat in the "attacking phase".

I've used a very rigid approach in order to explain better the concept of a team splitted in two phases, in reality there are a lot of flexibility depending on the match situation, but I think that general concept is this.

I think that Guardiola approach, in Fm terms, is definitely structured and not fluid or very fluid.

Do you think it is possible to sort of make that switching of attacking intend in FM 19? We don’t have the Shape Team instruction anymore where we could make the difference between individual mentalities bigger.

January 24, 2019

1 hour ago, kurupted said:

From what ive seen, when you use an AP-A with "Get Further Forward" PI he often ends up in the box, often receiving a cross, while the AP-S doesn't enter the box, they don't play in the half-space that much, but you can find him there sometimes. The problem is, when they have 2 DM's or opponent play narrow, you can't have Mezzala roles, simply because they will do nothing in that match, the AP can be found in the half-spaces, basically its a roaming player, when he has space he is in the half-space, when he doesn't have, he roams. What i like most, and this i didn't see in the Mezzala role, he roams much more than the MEZ, i think the Mezzala is resctricted to that area and rarely leaves to go to the opposite side to help, with both AP's i saw that much more.

SK-S

2 Fullbacks, changing roles (opponent weakness)

2 CD's (i dont like the BPD, cause they take risks unnecessarily, while the CD's are much more short passing

1 DM - It depends alot, when im facing a team that has pacey wingers or try direct balls or even has scoring changes i play with DM-D, but whey im facing a weaker team or equal and i see that they dont want to "assume" the game, i play with DLP-D.

The 2 8s, one is AP-A with Get Further Forward and Roam from position and the other AP-S with Drible less (you can have Shoot more often if your players has high Decision and long shot attributes).

The wingers, well, it depends too, if im facing a weaker team, i normally play W-S, cause the opponent team are very compact and i can't find spaces to my Wingers explore (behind the defense etc). Against equal teams/away/defensive high line i play with W-A cause i want them to try to do a run behind while maintain the width.

The striker, well, it really depends too, against opponents that have high defensive line or when they are losing and push the defensive line up, i use a AF-A, but when they play deeper, i tend to use DLF-S, i tried the N10 too cause i like the movements but it really depends, imagine you face a 4-2-3-1 with 2 Defensive Midfields, maybe use a N10 instead of DLF makes more sense, since the DLF will have trouble to receive the ball and the number 10 can drag away a man-mark.

About the mentality, well, i was trying Balanced and i was having good results, i don't have "Pass Into Space" cause i dont like the CD's or even the fullbacks to do that pass, i really want the 8's to have that kind of creativity.

About tempo: normal with the very large width

Nice man, thanks for sharing. How has the APa and APs performed?

January 24, 2019

23 minutes ago, kurupted said:

I don't agree with you. The players don't have to stay in designated playing zone, you often see KDB and DS leaving their half-space when they need to, just look at the image i sent, to create numerical advantage both 8's move close to each other, you can't simply have them play "designated zones", what you can say his, their man playing zone is the half-space, thats correct, but they often leave that position when the situation needs to. Same of Sane, you can see him going narrow and the fullback overlaps him, you are correct when you say they have specific playing zones, but they are not restricted to them, the only players that i often see and don't leave position maybe the wingers and Fernandinho ?

When i talked about the Mezzalas, the MEZ role recreate the "playing zone" that both 8's usually play, but they rarely leave that space, you have inumerous roles that can play the half-space, not only the Mezzala, the AP plays in the half-space, the N10 plays in the half-space, the F9 plays in the half-space, what i wanted to say, is that the AP can get into the half-space and more, they recreate the roaming that both midfields do, let's see, we want to create numerical advantage in every situation, what we don't want is to overcrowd an area that doesn't need more players, we often see KDB on the right half-space and DS in the left half-space, but you can see DS going deeper and KDB too, sometimes the 8's leave the half-space to create passing lanes.

I watched many games with 2 Mezzalas in the midfield, and i didn't like what i see because they often are left in the half-space and rarely move into a player to create more passing options, the Mezzala is not kind of a playmaking type, in FM, this is very important, we want both 8's to roam, creating numerical advantage, while staying in the half-space.

You have to remember something, depending on wich opponent you are facing off, there are matches that you can't have players in the half-space, imagine you are playing a 4-2-3-1 with 2 Defensive Midfields next to the defensive line, its almost impossible that the Mezzalas are effective in that situation

Good points. Have you tried using the 2x AP's in midfield? How would you generally set the system with that midfield?

January 24, 2019

8 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

In my opinion Man City today is very different in the interpretation of play from Barcelona. The main triangles are definitely the ones composed of Wingback, 8's and wingers. But in Barcelona the position were more or less fixed, in Man City, as seen in the last match against Huddesfield, they can vary. In the last month the preferred configuration seems the one with Sane and Sterling in the wide positions, two 8's and wingback acting as IWB, in a true 6's role. But sometimes it happens that Sterling cuts inside in a free role and Walker moves up like a "true" wingback.

The same flexibility is seen in the central position of the pitch. Tha starting configuration is a 4-3-3 with one DM and two 8's, but KDB acts with more freedom in collecting the ball from deep, while D. Silva (or the player which plays in the centre-left position) is more offensive, running from deep position in penalty area. But in some cases, as for example against Liverpool or teams with a playmaker in front of defense, the lineup was similar to a real 4-2-3-1 with one of the two 8's that sit very deep and the other moving in AMC position.

Generally speaking it seems that the team was splitted in two parts, 5 people that attack and 5 people that support.

Totally agree, and you wrote it so much better than me. The bolded part is extremely important if you ask me.

4 hours ago, kurupted said:

I dont really get it that "avoid having too many playmakers in midfield", why ? Fernandinho is a playmaker, he recycles the ball, hes not so offensive as DS and KDB but he is a playmaker. DS and KDB are playmakers too, but they are "different" playmakers. Honestly, like i said before, the Mezzala role DOES NOT entirely replicate how they play, if you watch close in a full-match, the Mezzala almost never leaves his "half-space", the MCE (Mezzala) its very rare that he leaves that area to help the right wing in the pitch.

You need to remember something that you forgot: Guardiola philosophy its all about numbers and superiority, their players ARE NEVER in numerical inferiority, their players tend to move to create passing lans to his teammates, i dont think the Mezzala replicates that very well. Besides that, as far as i can see, the Mezzala (S and A) its rare that they drop deep to pick the ball or create a passing option (unless they have PPM).

Look at the image i sent before, look how KDB has the ball and his teammates come to him to create passing options, thats what we want, i think the AP comes into the half-space, but he doesnt do only that, he roams a lot more in my opinion that the Mezzala, and with that we create numerical advantage when someone as the ball

I get what you are using, but the two number 8's movement and position is hard to replicate. So what I like to do is just replicate parts of their general movement. Like one being David Silva high up in the half space, between the lines, while de Bruyne is more of a deeper organizer, moving with more freedom then organize the rest of the team according to the job, you've assigned those two. It's hard to get everything squeezed into one FM tactic - or at least, I think it is - as City's attacking patterns, movement and build up varies a lot during games.

When I try to replicate the sort of style of Pep I usually avoid playmakers roles because a lot of the play will naturally go through them and the players are more inclined to leave their designated playing zone. A cornerstone in Guardiola's playing style is players are assigned certain zones they need to be in according to the ball and the opposition (like, stay in your positions), so the team gets spread out nicely and makes the space available to play as big as possible. Then they will look to lurk the opposition into one side of the pitch and then switch the play. Overloads and that kind of stuff, which I don't know a whole lot about to be honest.

But you are absolutely right in your observations about City. You sometimes see de Bruyne/B. Silva and D. Silva close to each other, then really far from each other.

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