[The Art of Counter Attacking]

8 hours ago, Duke313 said:

Wouldn’t mind giving this a try in FM22 to see if it works.

Any player instructions/opposition instructions?

No opposition instructions or PIs - let me know how you get on!

[Evaluating a Lower League squad to determine what formations are possible]

@Rashidi Do you have any training tips for lower league management? I only have four slots per week so try and fit in a general, an attacking, a defensive and then a match prep.

[Fast attack style and the attacking mentality]

Out of curiosity, what is the possession tactic that you became bored of? 

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

What factors does the AssMan take into consideration when recommending a suggested style? I'm in the premier league so he's got good stats, his recommended styles are Tiki-Taka and Vertical Tiki-Taka even though my team is below average in passing, composure, decisions, first touch e.t.c. (pretty much the ones I would be looking at if deciding to play a possession game). His preferred style is wing play, so I don't think that would be a factor. I don't listen to him much anyway, but I'm just curious what background info feeds into his recommendation. 

[Best striker pairing in a 442?]

I've had great joy this year playing both strikers on attack duties. They really stay pressed up against the opposition's centre-backs and I've scored some great goals on the counter this way. 

 

I do like one to be more a "creator" though, even though they're on an attack duty so my typical combo's look like : AF(A) + CF(A), AF(A) + DLF(A), AF(A) + Treq(A) 

[A Discussion About the Advanced Playmaker]

17 minutes ago, BigV said:

It'd be nice to see it work again as I love the 4231 and love working around CAM's in general but I have a feeling the game has pushed people into other formations to get the better results, one being 433 for example. 

100%. 4-2-3-1 seems to be one of the trickiest formations to get right (just look at the front page of the tactics page here). Given how common it is in football it would be nice to make it easier to pull off in game given these difficulties don't seem to arise with other common formations (4-3-3, 4-4-2).

[A Discussion About the Advanced Playmaker]

19 hours ago, BigV said:

I mentioned it in the last page 

However I disagree with your last point. A 4231 has existed with CM's for a long time just like DM's they both provide different measures even with the same roles- IRL. What you see the DM's do is what you should see the CM's do however it seems the CM's love to get forward more than ever regardless of the role leaving spaces. A DLP defend CM is very much like a DM that is slightly positioned higher, Support on the other hand tends to get slightly higher, the DM DLP-S does what a CM DLP should sit deep and spray passes. 

DM's should screen the backline most of the time which they kinda do but need to be more reserved hence why I think DM positions act like CM positions. It also depends on the player, having the likes of a BBM in DM very rarely works in lower leagues until you get "top class players" in 1st divisions. Players are suited to their role and dont change improve in their positions (as in gets greener) alot of the time, yet when they play CM is leaves them wide open.... 

Tricky thing to sort when roles and positions aren't working in their desired areas. Not many teams that play 4231 play with DM's, united for example play CM's and hardly does bruno get caught by a player moving forward by that fred, mcsauce or another CM that plays there. Same with spurs, alli is always close to kane, le celso has the freedom to move around and no one goes close or goes in his area. A very big fault with FM that is probably why the AMC's of AP/AM seem less useful. 

That's a fair point, and it's good that different people have different interpretations! It would be boring if everyone thought identically about this game.

My impression comes from watching tactical videos (recently such as Alonso's masterclass on youtube) where the double pivot is synonymous with a "double 6", a 6 being a defensive midfielder.  He would describe both him and Sami Khedira as " playing the 6 role in the 4-2-3-1" in the video, though obviously they both were very different (creator/destroyer).

[A Discussion About the Advanced Playmaker]

Following this thread with interest, definitely noticed an improvement in my AM's performance when dropping both CMs back to the DM position (even with the same roles). 

 

I hope that for FM21 SI will set the "default 4-2-3-1" to be the "4-2-3-1 DM Wide" formation, as I feel this is a more realistic portrayal of the formation. 

[Atletico Madrid Struggles 4-4-2]

On 07/01/2020 at 22:20, Experienced Defender said:

But if you want to play counter-attacking football using the 442 formation, then it's advisable to have both strikers on attack duty, but preferably in different roles.

This piece of advice has completely turned my tactic around. I had never previously thought that two attack duties up front would work, but my new combination of AF(A) + TM(A) are banging them in for fun on the counter. Coupled with "hit early crosses", we're now challenging for promotion in the Vanarama National South. Thanks @Experienced Defender!

[[Discussion] CM or DM?]

I agree with a lot that's been said. Perhaps the easiest solution would be if SI set the "default" 4231 to the "4231 dm wide" instead of the "4231 wide". I feel like this is a better representation of the formation irl.

[Useful hints on roles and duties in 4-2-3-1]

On 06/10/2019 at 19:47, Johnny Ace said:

I stole my under 19's manager's 4-2-3-1 for a game.....

 

….. & this happened......

…….. 

 

 

When you say you stole the u19 tactic, did you set it up to the non-first teams could play their own tactics then see what they were doing in the squad view? 

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

Why does the game have a pre-set tactic called "Direct Counter-Attack" which uses a cautious mentality and 4 support duty players, and then the pre-match advice tells you that 1-2 support duties is most sensible for a cautious mentality?

[The Art of Counter Attacking]

Just want to thank Cleon, I was really struggling away from home as Wolves before remembering this thread. I was winning comfortably at home with a custom gegenpressing tactic, but was the league's whipping boy away.

After creating this tactic:

 

I was able to get an unexpected away win at Spurs (two counters and a free-kick).

 

Edit: Just followed the Spurs match up with the below away at Liverpool!

 

[Pairs & Combinations FM2015 - UPDATED]

Neonshake, I suppose this bit - "Specifically ensure that at least 1 of your deepest wide players (so normally a Full Back, but potentially a Wing Back or Wide Midfielder) are on attack duty"

It might read as if Llama was saying that that's a rule, which I'm not sure he intended it to. People took it as a necessity, I know myself it's something that I used to always do. I've seen a lot more tactics this FM with no deep attack duties if it suits their tactics, eg Cleon's Art of Counter attacking thread.

[The Art of Counter Attacking]

A bit late to the party here, but I'd just like to thank Cleon for this great thread.

To put things into context, I'm playing as a championship team, but after promotion I have finished mid to upper-mid table in the Premiership for the past few seasons. The problem is that I've struggled to break into the European places consistently. I'm playing a 4-2DM-3-1 possession based tactic, which struggles against the elite (although is good against teams below that level).

Reading this thread, Cleon has several times mentioned that the natural progression is to a possession-based counter approach. Taking this as inspiration I've developed a second tactic with the aim to compete better against the higher reputation teams.

I've dropped my two wingers back to form a 4-2DM-2-1-1 of sorts. I have an IF(A) and AP(S), which have become a WM(A) and WP(S). I've set my team out with instructions to retain possession when attacking naturally, but I've also moved to a counter mentality. This, coupled with the deeper positioning of my team, gives my team a greater chance to break against teams which over commit, while still retaining a patient build up style if there isn't a chance to break.

Using this, I've got draws in my last two away matches against Chelsea and PSG, something which I'm happy with (as the big teams used to thrash me away from home). I'm still refining this approach, but I would like to thank Cleon triggering the idea!