ElJefe4
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Posts posted by ElJefe4
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Hi fellas,
Been working on a few different systems across a couple of versions of FM, most recently a Pep style 4-3-3 (2-3-5 in attack) on FM18. One slight issue I've ran into in all of them is the positioning of my wide players.
Ideally I'd like to have wingers who play as high as possible, stay wide through the build up play look to run in behind. I'd like them to really stretch out the opposition back line and pin their full backs, in order to create space in other areas. Similar to how City's wingers play. The problem I've found is that they often don't push up right to the last line, instead they sort of hang around in the middle third during the build up. I've attached a few screenshots to demonstrate the positioning I'm seeing and the positioning that I'd like to see.
So far I've tried out and out wingers. I think the screenshots below are using wingers and as you can see, they do keep the width, but don't position themselves high enough, so they're not in a position to run in behind. Please keep in mind that these wingers have the PI of 'Get Further Forward'.
I've also used inside forwards, although only in systems where they are not required to keep the width. I think they'd play higher and threaten in behind, but wouldn't keep enough width in the build up play.
I can provide more info on my current tactic if required, but based on the info above - what would people recommend to get wingers playing as high and wide as possible, so that they stretch the oppo defence as wide as possible and can look to move in behind if possible? My next experiment would probably be Inside Forwards but with the team width set to the widest option.
Any thoughts would be appreciated!
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7 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:
Thank you for the kind words everybody
I loved the 'Guardiola' 4-3-3/2-3-5 but I did move away from it fairly early on. As you correctly pointed out, I used it a lot in the early days in order to create a structure which allowed us to dominate games and punch well-above our weight in terms of ability at that time.Actually despite the later success, I still rate those first two seasons as my greatest ever tactical achievement.
If you look back, you'll see that I used more structured systems when the squad was in development. We had technically gifted players, who were still developing their own decision making and general football intelligence so a structured system - accompanied by a shape which gives them positional superiority and passing triangles everywhere - basically makes the game much more simple for them. I basically see it as telling the players exactly what to do.
As the players developed and became more intelligent, we become more fluid and give more freedom to the players to make their own decisions.
It's more about player development than a particular shape in this case. In fact, fluid shapes are far easier to implement tactically (because they're naturally compact) but you have to have the players to make them work.
The decision of IWB/W vs WB/IF was also that in the earlier years, Grimaldo and Fernandes were far more developed than Embalo and Jota. In the IWB/W system, Grimaldo and Fernandes were given freedom to come inside and help control the game, whilst Emablo and Jota played very simply out wide and getting in crosses. Meanwhile they're picking up lots and lots of minutes and developing fast.
You'll notice we were winning a lot of games 1-0. It was very simple, methodical, machine-like football. I wouldn't play this with a top class team but it's acceptable when you have a bunch of 17 year olds dominating Europe's super clubs
The switch to WB/IF 4-3-3 was simply that Embalo and Jota developed to become quite threatening in attack and they had a far greater attacking output than the 'Free 8s' (something I have never quite got firing).
Then Leão came in and his ability forced the switch from 4-3-3 to 4-2-4 variants. At the time, I wasn't comfortable but now - particularly with the 3-1-6 attacking shape - this is probably my favoured system.
Yeah I'm a big fan of the system too. As good as rampaging wing backs are, there's something very appealing to me about having a dynamic front 3 supported by a couple of technically excellent, creative, attack minded midfield players. Would love to get the creative output of the 8s to real life David Silva/De Bruyne levels.
Was thinking something like this once the team is at the required level to give them greater fluidity/freedom. Mentalities are according to the calculator, but I think the 11 on the DLP might be an error, seems to be 14 in game.
As much as your preference is to have your playmaker as the deepest midfielder, I was considering having a basic DM(d) at the base and going with an AP(s) or RPM(s) next to a Mez(s) in front of him, in the hope that it might give more creative license to the 8s. I think Ferna-Silva-KdB, for example, would more accurately be described as DM-RPM-Mez, rather than Ferna as a DLP. Literal translations of tactics do not always produce the patterns of play you expect in game though, so I'll have a mess around with this a bit more.
6 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:
On the natural No. 9. I've recently experimented with this with Mbappe at PSG (fancied a challenge) and played very similarly but pushing the SS(A) for AF(A) and then CF(A) as Mbappe developed.
That's interesting, I hadn't even considered an Advanced Forward. I knew I needed something more attacking than a F9 as we won't have same threat from the wingers as we would from inside forwards, but I was thinking of going with DLF(A) to begin with as I was worried about him being isolated. A proper spearhead could be the way to go though, forcing the opposition back a bit further, allowing the wingers to really push high and wide and freeing up more room for 8s.
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13 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:
This is just incredible.
As a Liverpool fan, our inability to break teams down coupled with Pep's City looking so dominant has left me massively frustrated. It's also made me get back on FM to try and implement Guardiola's 433. I notice that you used it at the start of your current save when the squad was very young. The last time you showed it (pg 14) it was Highly Structured/Control with a midfield/forward line of DM/D/6, RPM/S/10, MEZ/A/16, W/S/11, SS/A/17, W/S/11.
Following the move from Highly Structured to Very Fluid, I don't think we saw the "Pep 433" again. Is this because you just had more success/enjoyed the CWB/IF version of the 433 more? Or do you think the Pep 433 is better suited to the Highly Structured team shape regardless of the ability of the playing squad? I'd be really interested to know how you'd set up the Pep 433 you had your current team for example. Or, if I can be selfish, how you'd do it if you were using a natural #9 rather than a Shadow Striker! I've just started with AC Milan (on FM18) and I'd like to be able to implement this style if possible.
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What do you guys think of tutoring young players who already have good personalities and high determination? Unless I'm looking for them to develop specific traits, is it better to leave it alone?
I've had a really good youth in take at Lyon. I've got a young striker, for example, Gautier Merlet. His personality is driven and his determination is 19 at just 15 years of age. Is there any real benefit to having a senior pro mentor him off the pitch? My inclination would be that it would potentially do more harm than good, and that I'd be better off having someone 'help develop his game' (i.e. pass on traits), but just wanted a second opinion.
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Interesting idea to have the front 3 as strikers. I haven't personally used a shape like that so wouldn't be sure on how it would play out in game. What I would say though is that Liverpool's midfield 3 is typically much more conservative than BBM/Mez. A combination of having no player in the AMR/AML position, adventurous midfield roles and attacking full backs would leave me worried about defensive stability on the flanks.
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How have people found the FM21 match engine now you've had a couple of weeks to get used to it? I haven't made the switch over yet. I've actually gone back to FM18 as I found the ME much more enjoyable. One thing that has really jumped out is the positioning of 'attacking' central midfield players in possession based systems.
"Here's one I made earlier" - a few posts up I demonstrated how the positioning of my MCL/MCR was not as aggressive or adventurous as I'd like it to be, to the extent that they'd be standing on the toes of my inverted wing backs and utilising the space ahead of them. Below is a screenshot from an FM18 game with Lyon. Notice how Aouar is positioned is so much higher up the pitch in order to really that exploit that half space. The blue line shows the direction of the pass from Mendy (DL/IWB) to Aouar. The red circle is where I'd typically see my midfielders position themselves on FM20.
Really hope the FM21 match engine can get back to something like FM18 as far as the above is concerned.
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I've lost count of the amount of times I've read through this thread.
On my latest read through, one thing that interested me was the '10 year reflection' post. You mention a few things about how you'd alter the individual training to further develop specific attributes e.g. finishing. You also mention potentially using more fitness training (combined with individually training roles such as defensive forward and defensive winger) to help with developing attributes for pressing. Other than that, did your team training generally stay fairly similar the second time around i.e. heavy tactical focus?
Another more general one on youth development - I find that a lot of my 16/17 year olds are very one footed. Is it worth training them to develop their weak foot at this age or is it likely to naturally get stronger over time?
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8 hours ago, bsanchezb said:
Yes, you can. The graphics is applicable for all versions normally. I have also moved the graphics from FM20 to FM21 beta and it works.
Thanks mate!
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Not 100% sure if this is the right place for this to go, if not then obviously feel free to move/delete.
Anyway, I've got all of the faces, kits, badges etc that I need on FM20, but I'm thinking of going back and playing FM18 again. Can I simply copy and paste the documents from 'Sports Interactive > FM20 > graphics' to 'Sports Interactive > FM18 > graphics' ?
Not too bothered if a few players are missing, just want to know if it would work in general? The downloads obviously take a long time and I don't want to go though it all over again if I can help it!
Thanks guys.
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39 minutes ago, MadOnion said:
What is your LOE and defensive line? Are they close to each other? Maybe try increasing the space between both.
Have you tried the mezzala/rpm instead?
Maybe try changing the IWBs to defend, if you haven't already.
Both defensive line and LOE are higher. I hadn't actually considered altering these. I've always been worried that increasing the space would make it easier for teams to play through my midfield. Changing it in order to increase the spaces between the lines for myself offensively literally hadn't crossed my mind.
Haven't tried Mezzala or Roaming Playmaker yet, again slightly concerned that it'd compromise my defensive structure. I think I'd be more inclined to make this switch if we were dominating possession but despite being set up to do so, I'm not having as much of the ball as I'd expect. Probably averaging about 50%. Then again, given how few goals we're conceding it's likely that much of this opposition possession is fairly sterile and therefore more adventurous midfield roles might actually be plausible. This will probably be the first one I try.
Changing the IWBs is another one I hadn't considered as well. I'm happy with their positioning so wouldn't want to alter it too much, having them slightly more withdrawn would definitely prevent them getting too close to the CMs. I'm just not sure if it would help with pushing the CMs any closer to my wingers/striker. Again, definitely worth some thought. Thanks for the ideas!
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Hi guys,
Just done a post on the Caixa thread which kind of relates to this, but don't want to go off topic too much on there so thought it'd be best to pop this one in here.
I'm currently at Inter using a 4-3-3 (2 IWBs, DLP and 2 CMs), attempting to create that 2-3-5 shape in attack that we have seen be so effective.
My issue however, as you will see below, is the positioning of the 2 central midfield players. Firstly, that they rarely position themselves as high up the pitch as I would like. Secondly, this leads to them standing on the toes of my IWBs.
Here, we have secured good possession in midfield with our Deep Lying Playmaker, Eriksen (slightly odd choice I know but other midfielders have attacking PPMs). In this case, the positioning of the 2 IWBs (22 and 18) is fine. But my 2 CMs (6 and 23) are far too deep and therefore occupy the same space.
This is about 15 seconds later. The ball had been across to the right and passed back inside to Eriksen (24), who moved it onto Asamoah (18). Once again, my CM (23) is literally in his way.
As I'm sure you can figure out, the blue circles are the rough areas where I'd like to see my CMs move into when we are in this situation. Fiorentina's 4-1-4-1 is very clear in this moment. The idea with the 2-3-5 would be to get my CMs into the half spaces either side of their DM (5). That way, if their CMs choose to press my IWBs, this would open up gaps that we can exploit. Frustratingly, with my IWB and CM taking up the same space, the opposition CM can simply press them both in the same action.
The relevant parts of the tactic, which I've tried to keep as simple as possible, are as follows:
- Positive Team Mentality
- Shorter Passing, Pass Into Space, Work Ball Into Box, Focus Play Through Middle
- MCR/MCL = Central Midfield, Support with PIs of Get Further Forward and Move Into Channels.
- DR/DL = Inverted Wing Back, Support with no PIs.
- AMR/AML = Winger, Support with PIs of Get Further Forward.
- Both CMs in this clip have 'Gets Forward Whenever Possible' as PPMs, neither have 'Comes Deep To Get The Ball' or anything else which might discourage them from moving into the spaces highlighted.Any help very much appreciated!
Edit - Just to add, I know on the face of it the Mezzala role seems ideal - "a central player that likes to drift wide and operate in the half-spaces", but I'm slightly put off by the the prospect of it disrupting our defensive shape, as the description also states that "he does generally have less defensive responsibility." One of the big plus points of this tactic has been the defensive structure, keeping 14 clean sheets in 17 matches, I'd be worried about compromising that too much.
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On 11/05/2019 at 18:16, zlatanera said:
On thing new on FM19 I do enjoy is that - I think, but I'm not certain, that its only when you have Play Out Of Defence selected - from a goal kick centre backs split wide and your DM will drop between them to receive the ball as your full backs push high up. When I played a 442 with two DMs it looked practically bizarre, the DMs and CBs forming a back four, the FBs pushing up so it looked like we had 3 players on each flank, and nobody at all in the centre.
On 11/05/2019 at 22:08, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:
Yes, certainly. Over the years I've moved from Standard to Control to Attacking to Overload and that experience has been helpful each time I'm starting with a new team and being able to gauge a style that could suit the players.I can't really comment on FM2019, but I'm sure they're gradually improving the way build up play works. Based upon my experience in this save, the AI needs to press more effectively in order to make that kind of build up necessary.
Doing one of my regular read through of this thread and this perked my interest. Particularly what you say about opposition needing to press in order to make 'Play Out Of Defence' really necessary.
It interested me as I've quite often found my CMs (in a 433) dropping far deeper than I need them to be when building out from a goal kick. I've also seen the problem this causes in that it leaves a big gap in the centre of the pitch and as a result we end up playing longer, riskier passes to forwards/wingers who are then isolated due to the lack of support from the '8s'.
It goes against one of the key principles of Guardiola's philosophy which Thierry Henry is describing here:
The very first clip he shows nails my problem. He highlights how Iniesta doesn't come short to receive a pass from Xavi, instead he waits in his position, trusts that Xavi will find him and is therefore in a better position to progress the play. This is the exact opposite of what I find my CMs doing.
Removing 'Play Out Of Defence' seems like a risky move, as the last thing I want is for my defenders to start lumping the ball up front. But at the same time, I definitely need to improve the spacing of the midfield by finding a way of stopping my MLC/MCR from dropping in next to my DLP in order to help in the build up phase. Seen several videos and read several articles that talk about the +1 idea when building from the back. That is, that you should use as few players as possible in this phase so as to free up more attackers. Ideally then, you'd only have 1 extra player than the opposition in this phase. At the moment, I'm seeing 2 Centre Backs, my Deep Lying Playmaker, 2 Inverted Wing Backs and 2 Central Midfield players all dropping to within 30 yards of my goalkeeper. That's 8 of my own players in an area where the opposition often have maybe 3? Really unnecessary. And by having 8 vs 3 in the build up phase, that leaves me with a 3 vs 8 in the attacking phase. Doesn't take a genius to figure out that those are not good odds!
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13 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:
Quite honestly, I don't have a strong view. My understanding is that Dictates Tempo means a player is more likely to deviate from the tempo set by your tactics.I cannot think of ever having seen a moment in the match engine where I have noticed an action which could have been due to dictate the tempo.
Right now, we play extremely high-tempo, high-intensity football and I wouldn't want anyone deviating from that. Perhaps if I was playing a slower, more controlled style Dictates Tempo might be useful in temporarily speeding things up when the rest of the team isn't otherwise capable.
In general, I'd say give it a go. See if you notice anything and decide whether you like it
Ah, I see. In that case it's probably much more simple than it was in my head (that's a bit of a theme for these threads). Thanks!
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Question for the main man @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! (and anyone else who might be able to help) - this might have been asked/discussed before, but I couldn't find it with the search function. What is your view on the 'Dictates Tempo' PPM?
For context, after a few days of 1990s/2000s Serie A nostalgia, I've just started a save with Inter Milan (FM20). With this thread as the inspiration, I'm looking to implement an attacking, possession based philosophy. I am probably going to be selling Eriksen and Brosovic in order to raise funds and build the midfield (and the team as a whole) around Stefano Sensi and Nicolo Barella. These 2 seem ideal for the central midfield roles that you used in your first move towards this style of play with Benfica, back in the early pages of this thread. Both players boast impressive technical and mental attributes. Sensi has the 'Gets Forward Whenever Possible' PPM, while Barella has 'Gets Into Opposition Area'. This should help with supporting my striker. My first quite frankly unoriginal idea for a signing to round off the midfield 3 was Sandro Tonali, who would act as the Deep-Lying Playmaker. My only issue however, is that I would have 2 players (Tonali and Sensi) with the 'Dictates Tempo' PPM.
- Would both players having this trait simply cancel each other out and allow them both to play normally?
- Could it marginalise Barella's involvement, as he'd be the spare man in midfield and the only one without this trait?
- Would it lead to a conflict in who is trying to 'orchestrate' the play?I note from your screenshots of Tiago Dantas that he doesn't have the 'Dictates Tempo' trait, is this something that you would actively look to avoid? If so, regardless of whether Tonali, or any other player with the 'Dictates Tempo' PPM is brought in, would you suggest trying to make Sensi drop that trait, especially as he is not likely to be playing as the Deep-Lying Playmaker?
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On 11/11/2020 at 06:20, NotSoSpecialOne said:
I played until October and then let the Ass Man do the rest of the season. Finished third in the league, quite a ways behind AZ and out in the group stage of the UCL. How the mighty have fallen
Team goals over all dropped quite a bit. 54 in the league compared to 66 last season. In terms of production, I don't think the SS/F9 combo was that bad and mostly scored the same as the AM/CF combo previously but goals dried up elsewhere. I'm thinking that playing more narrowly and with one or more IF on the flanks would have helped but IFs won't defend in the same way as an IW does so maybe a width issue.
Defensively we weren't that bad, in the league (we got rumbled a bit in the UCL). 7 goals more goals conceded in the league over the last season. The switch to normal CBs from BPD seemed fine - the issue was three pronged I think. 1) Blind's pace and acceleration are gone now and when he played in the unchained Libero position, this got exposed repeatedly. 2) Schurrs and Pierie picked up the Tries To Play Out Of Trouble trait. Thanks Blind. I'm sure a couple of goals resulted from this. 3) Onana departing. His under study Acosta still has some ways to go.
This is where I hang my hat up on the 3-4-3 diamond, for now. There are some (on paper at least) match engine changes that look beneficial coming in 21 so I may revisit it then. And I'll be following along regardless.
Ah that's rough. I got knocked out in the Champions League group stages this season too, Real Madrid, PSG and Inter was a tough draw. We managed to finish 3rd so its all systems go for a tilt at the Europa League. We still managed to dominate possession most of the time, but better quality teams are ruthless in exploiting the weaknesses in the back 3. I'm considering developing a 433 system to utilise against 1) better quality opposition in Europe and 2) decent domestic teams who use wingers in the AMR/AML slot and then using the 343 against the rest.
Currently at the winter break of season 2. Tactic has slightly changed from last season, will do an update soon. Scoring a bit less this season (around 2.2 gpg opposed to 2.6gpg last season), but the defence has been much better, only conceded 4 in 19 so far.
Shame that you're not continuing with the 343 for FM20, look forward to working on it together in FM21 though!
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1 hour ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:
Big clubs came in for quite a few and I figured it was better to sell and reinvest than run the risk of an upset squad - Onana put in a transfer request so that'll be another gone. I carelessly sold Unuvar to St Pauli for under a million; he moved to Norwich this season for 11.5m whoops. Gravenbach has come on nicely, could be better defensively in the context of this system but oh well. He gets the nod for the Netherlands and van der Beek doesn't
Gonna keep cracking on with this for another season. Few tweaks for the upcoming season: Giving the F9 - SS combo another shot. I've changed the wide CBs from BPD to regular CBs, the idea here being they'll utilise the safer but more creative options centrally (Libero & HB). Also taken Hold Position off the Libero so he's free to get a bit more involved.
Nice passage of play. I'm envious that you still have Antony! That's who scored the 19 goals last season for me before his release clause was met in January. Tidy player.
Interesting shout on going back to F9/SS. I'm currently using a CF (S) and AM (A) combo. As good as Ziyech was, a lot of his best moments seemed to be individual brilliance rather than anything to do with the system. Tadic seems a better fit for the style of play in terms of his off the ball movement and willingness to run beyond the last man. Lassina Traore is proving a useful option as a Complete Forward in the early part of the season. Going with Support rather than Attack for the CF means he will drop off a bit more and create space for Tadic, but he also has the 'Beats Offside Trap' trait, so he provides a threat in behind as well.
I've also considered that swap to normal CBs in the wide positions in order to simplify their role slightly and avoid them taking on too much responsibility/risk. Let me know how that goes!
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Total Football!
First league game of season 2 and we'll do well to score a better team goal than this. Veltman (DCL, #13) actually passed back to Onana so technically all 11 players played a part in the move.
Look at Tadic's off the ball movement (#9). He played up top last season and probably will for most of this season as well, but injuries have meant that he's started the season playing off Traore in the AMC role. He drifts over to the right hand side to support Antony and van de Beek, finds space at the tip of the diamond a few seconds later, and then a few seconds after that is in position for an open goal if Fischer chose to square it. I'm a bit disappointed that he didn't, just for how aesthetically pleasing the goal would have been, but it was still pretty special.
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On 08/11/2020 at 06:43, NotSoSpecialOne said:
Wrapped up the first full season going Cryuff, could have gone better but also could have gone worse. I mentioned previously that I lost my first choice striker on deadline day? Well the player that stepped up to fill the void performed well, netted 19 goals in the first half of the season and then he was off in January (pesky release fee was met). A replacement was brought in but didn't perform as well. And my second choice striker scored a hattrick in his first league appearance of the season only to then go 17 games without scoring at all - what do you do when this happens and you've got no other options? lol
We won the league for the third straight season, not really a challenge with Ajax is it? I rotated quite heavily to focus on Europe so it probably shouldn't have been this close though.
Speaking of Europe? How did it go? Well after losing the opening group match against Valencia at the Mestalla 7-0....
They battered us and it probably shouldn't have gone to penalties, but a nice accomplishment and oh so close. With our tough group stage (Man Utd, Juventus and Valencia) to beating the likes of PSG and Real Madrid in the knockout rounds I never expected to get this far.
Player stats. Thiago Almada put in work in the AM(At) position.
And finally, the tactic ended up.
I did briefly flirt with having the AMC slot as a SS again in the second half, but after a few matches ended up going back to AM(At). Just find it holds the shape better for passing triangles, which is ideal in the build up phase. I also wanted to try the F9 out again, because Lazaro has the makings of a really good F9. But I opted against it, because we were already struggling for goals - none of my wide players occupying the IW roles are strong (or even decent) finishers and it definitely showed over the course of the season.
Low Crosses is only there as a squad specific consideration; the central attacking midfielders and strikers in the squad are quite short and lacking in aerial presence so it was a necessity.
Good stuff! Your team seems to have changed quite a bit already, is that due to bigger sides coming in for the likes of Neres and Promes or have you just chosen to sell to raise funds?
I have such high hopes for Gravenberch, how are him and Unuvar getting on? It's a shame Schuurs' PA isn't a bit higher. There's shades of Koeman about him with his physicality and powerful long-range free kicks.
Gutted for you with the Champions League final, would have been some achievement that! Hopefully next season.
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1 hour ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:
Oh hey, we've done the business against Juventus too
Nice build up and goal, that! I've had a few decent ones over the last few seasons but game doesn't let me save them to share, oof.
Did you change anything with your tactic during the 2nd half of the season to deal with those pesky park-the-bus types? I'm contemplating having a second tactic on hand for these sides - same formation, roles, duties and TIs but shifting the mentality from Positive to Attacking (passing should go to slightly lower and tempo to slightly higher with the mentality shift off the top of my head).
How have you got on in Europe? I was made up to knock them out and even gave myself a pat on the back for a few tactical adjustments to exploit their narrow 4312, but were unceremoniously dumped out by Leipzig in the next round.
Yeah I'm not sure how to save/export them from FM itself. I installed something called screentogif which you can use to record your screen and then, you guessed it, save/upload it as a gif.
About the tactic, I didn't change anything major. I have a bad habit of constantly making small tweaks on a game by game basis. I probably do this too much as I then can't figure out exactly which changes to the tactic are having an impact on what I'm seeing on the pitch. For season 2 I am thinking of reducing the amount of attack duties (currently have 3 of the front 4 on attack) and using more creative roles (i.e. Advanced Playmaker, Mezzala etc) on the MCR/MCL.
I know (or at least think) that the Team Fluidity in FM20 is simply a measure of how many support duties I have, mine is on structured at the moment. I don't actually mind this as I think possession based sides such as Cruyff's Barca, LvG's Ajax or Pep's sides are more structured than people perhaps give them credit for. However, I'm thinking a move towards a more fluid system should make it more difficult for sides to press us and might help me see a little bit more freedom of movement in the final third.
I'm also considering lowering the tempo, which is currently on standard. I like to play wide and stretch the pitch when we have the ball. This is great for isolating full backs and creating room in the half spaces, but can result in fairly big gaps between the players. Coupled with a standard (or higher) tempo, this seems to lead to players rushing their passes slightly and playing lower percentage passes over greater distances in order to avoid dwelling on the ball and allowing the tempo to drop. This is even the case when 'shorter passing' is selected. A lower tempo might allow players to take that extra half a second on the ball and give time for a team mate to drop into space to receive the ball, rather than forcing their pass. Not sure if it's been posted before but the video below really demonstrates how Barca were very wide, but also remained very patient, allowed their team mates time to find space before delivering a pass into them.
Even with the goal in the third clip, other than one first time pass and an injection of pace from Romario, nobody really seems to rush anything that they do. The ease with which they move the ball around and create chances comes more from the intelligent positioning of the players, rather than anyone doing anything at a really high tempo.
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Just to add to the above (video was still encoding so couldn't post at same time). When the tactic does click, the football is very nice. Below is one of my favourite goals of the season. At least from the second half of it. Not least because it came in our biggest win, away at Juventus.
https://i.imgur.com/gyo86Bv.mp4
If anyone knows how to embed the above, let me know. The [img] brackets don't work.
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Few screenshots of season 1:
See below the quite noticeable drop off between the first half of the season and the second.
Surprised we only conceded 2 more in the second half actually, although shipping goals regularly in the Champions League probably added to my feeling that we were weak at the back.
The end of the season in particular was rough:
Here are the overall squad stats. Really good numbers for Tadic (Complete Forward, Attack), Ziyech (Attacking Midfielder, Attack) and Fischer (Inverted Winger, Attack). Should add that scored 7 penalties and Ziyech scored a handful of direct FKs. Promes also provided a lot of assists from AMR (Winger, Support). Unfortunately David Neres had his season hampered by a series of injuries and never really hit top form.
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22 hours ago, Xavier Lukhas said:
You've done good deductive work already. Having played in the Netherlands, Ajax's reputation is absolutely crushing; to the point that bar a few exceptions, most teams are going to be very happy to sit back and wait while doing absolutely nothing; and if they get mauled, so be it. This is the point where you can put your knowledge of balanced tactical setups into the trash. You can afford to play more direct, you can afford to use more aggressive over/underlaping roles in midfield like MEZ, you might want to drop the DM from DLP(D) to something more boring like HB. You may consider making the AMC drop deeper to escape his markers and provide balls with a role such as AP(S) instead of having him congest the area by running forward. You're going to need more movement in unpredictable ways to make deep defences implode, and CAR or CM(S) don't provide it naturally. This doesn't happen as much IRL for reasons such as:
- No one defends in a 4-2-3-1 Wide (or 4-1-4-1 Wide or 4-2-4), because no team actually defends with three people up front who never come down to defend;
- Even the lowliest and the most negative team in the world would still hope to get a cheeky goal on a counter or set-piece, so they're not going to pretty much do nothing for 90 minutes like in FM;
- You can very well use a different formation to attack and defend: Mexico uses (or used to use) the 3-4-3 Diamond with the ball, but defended in essentially a 4-4-1-1.Those are just things you can try, not necessarily the "right" answer. Against a team that doesn't play balanced football and doesn't care about even scoring at all, you don't have to play balanced tactics either. FM isn't a simulation, no matter what Miles Jacobson says about the topic.
I completely get everything you've said, cheers. Problem for me though, is that not only am I now creating less, I've also started to ship goals regularly! Teams seem to have cracked switches of play into the AML/AMR position to exploit the gaps in the full back positions. Never seen such a big mid season drop off. Starting to feel like a real struggle. Anyway, don't want to wallow too much.
There must be some way to make a Cruyff 343 consistently successful, and if there is I won't stop until I find it!
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You could definitely get this kind of shape in possession, although when I've seen people aim for the 235 in possession, the front 5 tends to be more of a W shape (i.e. the #8 and #10 on your picture would be deeper). I wouldn't suggest setting your team up like this on the tactics screen though.
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On 03/11/2020 at 03:54, Xavier Lukhas said:
It's FM's usual (and quite brutal) mid-season adjustment. Teams reassess where they are, their objectives and which other clubs they need to be more or less wary of. Remember when just at the half-season mark the board asks you again what you think you can achieve? That's the same for AI clubs, but since it happens at one or two specific times during a season instead of continuously adjusting match after match like IRL, it's very jarring and the effects very brutal.
Ah I see, thanks for the info. Do you have a general rule in order to counteract it or would it be dependent on each specific tactic?
Edit - Just looking through my fixtures since the winter break. The vast majority of AI teams are now setting up in a 4231 (Wide). I'm torn between sticking with the 343 and seeing if it can be worked on and just switching to a new system. Ultimately this whole save is about developing a proper 343 so that's my priority. With that in mind, I've noted a couple of things that are contributing to our problems. The first one is the build up from our own GK.
As you can see below, when we set up in a 343 (shooting from right to left), the opposition 4231 actually means that they can go man for man against my 3 CBs and DM (the defensive diamond, if you will). As our wingers play high up the pitch, the space between them and our wide CBs is usually too big for this to be a consistent method of progressing the ball out of defence. This means that we will usually look to pass into the DM or one of the wide CMs. Depending on the positioning of the opposition wingers, the pass into the wide CMs is not always on. I have also noticed that my wide CMs come quite deep in order to receive the ball from goal kicks, which ends up being counter productive as it allows the opposition midfield to push up, and the gap between front and back remains massive. Ideally, I'd have them actually move away from my CBs and have my wingers or #10 drop deeper to receive the ball, but I'm not sure that this is possible to implement.
Does anyone have any ideas on how best to tackle the 4231 without completely moving away from my preferred 343 shape?
P.S. I'd actually like an interactive tactics board in the game, we see coaches with real ones all the time. Pretty much every manager must have one in their office where they can slide the counters around and see different systems match up. Would make it a lot easier to visualise. Drawing that up took me ages.
Edit 2 - Seeing as the above is quite detailed/specific, it might be useful to post my actual tactic as well.
Only PIs are 'Stay Wider' on the 2 stoppers and 'Get Further Forward' and 'Stay Wider' on the BBM.
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Pep's Manchester City 20/21: Looking To Recreate (But With Older Pep Elements)
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
Interesting post mate. I'm working on a similar Pep 4-3-3 back on FM18 so naturally, I'm looking for similar positioning from my wingers.
- Stretch the opposition defence horizontally, creating more room in the 'half spaces' for my CMs (and inverted wing backs) to play in.
- Pin the opposition full back, forcing the defence backwards allows the CMs to join the offensive players, making the 2-3-5 shape in attack.
- Staying higher puts him in a position to make a run in behind the full back if the space opens up.
- Ideally, arrive close to the goal late in the move in order to finish the move off.
So far I've found that when using the winger role, the AML/AMR will keep the width as we want him to, but does this slightly deeper (middle third) and as such can't fulfil the last 2 objectives.
Conversely, the worry with the inside forward is that he checks boxes 2 and 3, but plays too narrow. This would reduce the space for the 2 central midfielders to move into. Given we are using IWBs as well, it would also make the team as a whole quite narrow.
I'm currently going with a Structured/Control set up, using Inside Forwards on Attack with a PI of 'Stay Wider'. I also have TIs of 'exploit the middle' (raises mentality of central players) and 'look for underlap' (reduces mentality of the AML/AMR). Gives me individual mentality of 15 for the wingers, 11 for my CMs and 10 for my striker (on DLF(s) atm). Ideally I would like them to be closer, but that will come in time when the team improves and we move towards a more fluid system.
I've only used it in one game so far but the early signs are promising. The 3 goals we scored are below, with the wingers (Berardi on the left, Sansone on the right) featuring heavily in all 3.
With the first you'll see that they're *quite* wide to begin with. Not exactly hugging the touchline, but this is from a turnover in possession so they were slightly narrower when we didn't have the ball. Sansone stays outside the full back until the opportunity arises to make the darting run in behind. Berardi gets himself into a decent position on the other side if the cross was to come deeper.
The second goal is the kind of really close to goal, slightly scrappy finish that Sterling seems to score quite a few of. Again you'll see both wingers are fairly wide as the play starts. Cutrone (#19) also had the option of finding the central midfield player in the right half space when he chose to pass straight to Sansone. Berardi on the other side initially makes his run wide after passing to the striker, then gets in at the back post to finish it off.
The second is more what you'd expect from a F9/IF combo, but the third is confirmation that the striker should also get himself in position to finish the moves off as well.