bamb00zle
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Posts posted by bamb00zle
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Really interesting thread bearing in mind I'm playing a very similar setup.
I do tend to find we have more defensive solidity if we play a half back in the DM role. Particularly in away games. He gets high ratings as well as he has the brings the ball out of defence trait.
This makes 3 centre halves when out of possession and has the added bonus of pushing the WBs or FBs higher to mount attacks when we get the ball back.
I only play a low or mid block so we regroup (although I untick both counter press and regroup and leave it unchecked) and we are barely troubled down the centre.
Also have you tried man marking the oppo FBs with your IF and winger? That can work if you see heavy AI emphasis down the flanks.
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12 hours ago, Herolover said:
Why the Primary Tactic.
- I like possession football,
- I like 2 STC because I feel they become far more of a threat than if I just have one STC and I have 3-4 really good STC.
- I could convert it to a 4-4-2, but am not sure I have enough at the AML position. The player currently in it, is actually a STC (he still does a good job as an IW). I am not sure I would be good with a ML.
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I generally find that 2 conventional forwards doesn't lend itself to posesssion based approaches as invariably at least one of them won't be involved in the build up that much. Personally 3 or even 4 man central midfielders do the trick much more. 4411 is a better setup than 442 for posession based systems, I've had a lot of success using a wide playmaker with an overlapping full back. A striker that drops off and an AM or SS making runs into the area. Defensively it is also much stronger than a 442, at least in my experience.
With the 433 DM you made, I'd agree largely with other posters comments - that is one of the strongest counter attacking formations but yep you definitely need a defensive screen in front of the back 4. Half back is a good option, as out of possession he makes a 5 man defence and allows the wing backs to push up.
I don't necessarily agree that you need to use 'direct' passing though to achieve counters. I play with this setup myself in my save and keep it at standard but then my club are the 3rd strongest team in the Ukrainian Premier League which is obviously a higher level than your current team so you can trust them more to make better decisions whether to go shorter at times or more direct when needed. They decide. Pass into space is a nice option to use. Higher tempo is good here too.
To make that set up work, one of your midfield 3 needs to be a runner into the box to get on the end of balls or the formation has a risk of isolation in attack. You also have to think about how to cover the AML or AMR as they are in advanced positions. I also avoid playmakers in this setup and target men as they tend to be ball magnets and when you want to counter, you want your lads to sniff out opportunities based on what's in front of them rather than trying to find certain players all the time.
Pace is a key component in this system, particularly on the flanks and the lone striker too so he can race on to balls over the top.
Be prepared to give up a fair amount of posssession in this system in favour of defensive solidity but if you're creating chances then you're doing it right. I prefer to go with a low block (sometimes split) as what I see is my team resetting into a 5 man defensive screen and it soaks up so much pressure. Teams give the ball back to us, we operate at a higher tempo and bang there's your counter.
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Your primary tactic will get torn to shreds I'm afraid.
Defensively you're playing a high line in a top heavy formation, with a counter press, plus with the roles you set, there will be huge gaps between the defence and midfield. You also have no one holding position in the middle. You will get buggered by balls over the top and your flanks are massively exposed.
Your basically asking a 6th tier team to hurry, play extremely aggressively but yet you want to frequently waste time!? That one needs to go back to the drawing board I'd say.
Secondary - I understand the formation but I personally wouldn't go cautious in bottom heavy setups unless you want to stink the place out for 90 minutes. You'll be so so deep and having shorter passing AND lower tempo doesn't lend itself to effective counters as you just allow the oppo to get back into position.
This is what I reckon. Having said that now, you'll play the season and win the league by 20 points.
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Well just returning to this topic, we're now a top 3 side but still comfortably off Dynamo and Shakhtar's level.
I'm relatively happy with how the tactic plays out. We are generally good at the back and do create chances but I'm having problems with my striker.
Here's my man
He is much less involved in the game than my IW and IF. Now his passing stats aren't great but his technique and movement is very good and he is overall an excellent prospect. I have DLF attack as I want him to drop a little deeper in transition but be ready to attack the box when the ball goes wide. I want him to be the main scorer. Maybe he's having a hard season? He got 8 in 20 last season which isn't too bad as this set up does share the goals around but he's missing loads of chances this and is a shadow of himself. My back up striker is having similar issues.
I sometimes have him on AF against better sides to be on the shoulders of defence and ready to attack direct balls which we sometimes play.
I thought about TM attack but I don't want him to be a ball magnet as I have better creative wide forwards and don't want us to be predictable.
We score goals but he never gets any. We are deadly from corners and free kicks. My CB is the leading scorer and penalty taker or we get moments of genius from the IF or IW.
Any ideas how I can pick up his form with a few subtle changes? He has no relevant traits except cut in from left so I can use him as an IF on occasion.
There are certain players I want more influence on the games such as him and MEZ support but on the latter I'm less inclined to go playmaker as this system is designed for the counter as that's our strengths.
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Hi, don't know if it's a bug or it's just the way it's designed but I'm not overly happy with accessing performance stats at half time or FT during games.
If I want to see the player stats or analytical stats I can't if I go to the tactics screen first. I have to look at player statistics first then on to tactics, I can't switch between the two.
Is this a design flaw or is there a way round it with widgets or what not? Anybody got any tips? I want to be able to click through different tools at will and not have to follow an order for me to see the team's performance.
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Completely disagree
I'm getting much more out of lower LOE and standard D line.
I even do lower D line and much lower LOE against better sides and I'm winning games against them.
So it's not broke in any way
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Well thanks all for the help.
I played the following season and it was a real mixed bag.
I moved to a more counter based 442 system that initally worked really well, the two up top a constant threat but defensive lapses galore crept in, a small squad on a limited budget were really stretched having qualified for the Europa League from the 2nd qualifying round which was a huge achievement.
We even won our group (generous draw mind) and got to the 2nd knockout round, losing very bravely on penalties to Valencia in a one off tie at the Mestalla.
Our run brought 6 million into the club though which was muchhhh needed!
Unfortunately our league form spluttered all season (wasn't helped by a bug that made us play Europa League Thursday then Premier league game on a Saturday ffs). We finished 8th/16 which was really disappointing but honestly speaking I made some poor decisions as a manager in certain games that cost us points. I decifded to educate myself so I can get better as a manager and get more out of our team on limited financial resources.
We didn't get into Europe again and I decided to rip everything I had up and only add cannily to our squad as the lack of Europe money, you get nothing in Ukraine at all, would really hurt us.
I based my squad around our 3 best players who are all Brazilian, they are an IF, IW and an AF.
I worked around a switch to a 433/451 to get the best out of them.
An IF on one side, IW on the other, an AF on the shoulder looking for the counter.
I had a good fit for the Mezzala behind and understood I need a CAR to cover the flanks, a half back to form a back 5 in defence and fairly conservative FBs.
Yes I had the tools already at my disposal.
It doers everything I want, just about edge possession in most games, devastating on the counter and very disciplined at the back.
I watched videos on how adjusting the def line and LOE can affect different results and changed complete from a high press to a low, compact block on a standard line.
My god we are lethal in the new season. We have 25 goals from our first 6 games. One goal condeded.
My new set up is slick up front with excellent xG and no one can get past us (at least at the minute).
5 wins and a 0-0 draw at the mighty Shakhtar (you do not comprehend how hard it is to get results against them).
Put into context, my Chernomorets side on paper would be a mid to lower end Championship side if you compare the attributes. Shakhtar would be a top 4 or top 6 EPL side as they are really a strong team both in IRL and on the game. They have loads of money too.
I'm understanding so much more how to manipulate the D lines to reflect what I'm seeing in the game and how to get what I want.
I then change around the transition/posession instructions on the stage of the game or what I'm seeing from the ME.
This is our template and what we go into most matches with (bar Shakhtar, Dynamo Kiev, Dnipro and Zorya) where I scale back.
Thanks for the tips, learned a lot.
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I'm in the Europa League and all games are a Thursday night.
After every round, I'm playing a Ukrainian League game on Saturday - it should be scheduled for Sundays.
Moaning on like Jurgen Klopp but just wanted to point it out.
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Well we clung on for dear life to finish 5th in the league which gets you to Europa League qualifiers so as we were predicted 11th/16 it's obviously decent. You also have to bear we've had very little to spend, much less than our nearest challengers. I also won Ukrainian Manager of the Year beating the Shakhtar manager who led them to W25, D 5 L0 and stormed the league. This is a good challenge for anyone interested in something else.
We were great before the winter break and bang average thereafter once the AI had sussed how to play against us. (W4 D5 L4).
Most teams put a high block on us and played wider, often doubling up on the flanks.
They marked our WP out the game to make him less of a nuisance.
They weren't playing high lines so we weren't able to get an outball defending in our half.
It could be a combination of that and our players overperforming and now finding how they really are at the top level.
1) I found no discernible difference in the Treq/AM (s) combo.
2) Lower LOE and def line meant we had less possession but we weren't countered quite as much.
3) Switching the CMs around resulted in better quality of chance but a bit less created.
I'm in pre season now and it's a disaster on the transfer front. There is literally no one interested who would better our squad so I'm going to have to box clever with the same squad. We do have a good youth academy some of the youngsters are coming on so this might be a season to blood a few.
I disagree with the club vision of playing defensive football, counter attack, set pieces. But they bent me over and made me agree to it. I don't like our owners much. They do however only expect mid table so i should at least be safe in my job.
Next season
We're probably going to have to defend deeper as I have 3 ageing FBs who I can't get rid. They are okay technically but losing their physicals.
I'll trial a counter attacking version or maybe a narrow 442 and report how we're doing. We have 4 strikers, 2 direct diminutive types and 2 workhorses so something to think about. One of which I sent on loan to Lech Poznan and he got 16 in 28 so I'm keen to give him a go.
If we do a counter, I'd imagine the 4411 might look like this:
AF (to stay on the shoulder for an out ball)
AM (s)
IW (s) DLP (d) CM (s) WM (s)
IWB (s) BPD (d) CD (d) FB (a)
SK (s)
Standard Def line, Standard LOE, more direct, standard tempo. Could go 4141 but I find that a negative setup.
It's not really in my DNA to design a tactic purely for counter, my relative success in FM over the years was designing possession/pressing based systems.
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3 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:
Hi there
few things i notice
Not sure why youd be focusing your play down the left in this tactic. If anything youd want to focus down the right i would have thought? the WP will come inside and have the central midfielder as an option and wing back overlapping him to make the overload which should leave the quick switch to your IW who gets room to get more goals.
Also, highline of engagement but standard defensive line, tighter marking and counter press. Your team is quite strung out with space between your lines. counter pressing is asking players to press with intensity too so i think your defensive shape is vulnerable if the tight marking players are beaten.
I think id probably lower the LOE down to normal and use a striker who will look to get in behind, and then drop the "work ball into box" instruction. be a little more direct and get some more through balls going in behind your opponents rather than slowly working into the box.
As a newly promoted team, the opposition probably push up quite a bit against you, i think you can expose them if they do. You already use a counter instruction so you want to get the ball into space quickly when you retrieve it it seems, so working the ball into the box isnt necessary i dont think
I did focus on the left as the ball magnets to the right with the WP and CM (s) so once it's there, do an aggressive switch to the left winger, he runs at the opposition and presents chances with my CF attacking the box, the SS rushing on and bang goal.
I moved the defensive line to try and deal with balls over the top, has worked to some extent especially with the CD in cover. I agree there's quite a lot of space between the lines when probably this set up needs us more fluid and compact to get the kind of chances I want.
I've been buying some pacier players as I'm thinking a more direct approach would suit us more, even if it goes against what I'm trying to achieve. Maybe I don't have the quality yet to challenge for the title with the way we play. We are the best footballing side in Ukraine but without the quality that Shakhtar and Dynamo possess.
@Kharza_FM I'll have a look at that combo and report back. My CF is a brute, good in the air, not a natural Treq but the AM I have can fulfil that role
3 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:Just from a quick observation:
I'd say swap your centre mid roles around, so the anchoring CM (CMD) is on the side the attacking Wingback, the supporting CM (CMS) on the side of the IW(A). That may help a little with the chances you're giving away. Wingbacks are pretty aggressive too, so maybe you could change one to a Fullback to be a bit more conversative
SS & PF is a combo that can work, just make sure both are rated well with the required attributes. The PF needs to be big & bullish, able to press heavily, hold the up, be able to play in others & finish chances coming his way. The SS dribbling, balance, agility, decisions, composure, vision, passing & finishing at least
It's a very aggressive system, high lines, loads of pressure, I'd go with removing Work Ball into Box or maybe lowering the tempo to help bring some better quality chances. WBIB maybe stifling your heavy metal attacks, the ball's getting recycled around the box & someone's just having a punt rather than crosses & through balls going into the penalty area. A lower tempo may help with the quantity over quality efforts at goal
Thanks for the reply. Yeah we used to do slower tempo but it allowed the oppo to get back in their blocks a bit too much and we're not A* quality in the league to cut through packed boxes.
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I should be happy but I'm not. I'm with Chernomorets Odessa in the Ukrainian Premier League. I took them up last season as Champions and we are currently 5th and qualfying for Europe. We are predicted to finish mid table. Overall I should be pleased. But I'm frustrated that we're not higher up.
I play a 4411 - we have great combinations, average out around 20 chances per game but do not create enough clear cut chances which puts us as the most profligate team in the league. The quality of my side is made up with a mix of decent and or good players for Ukrainian Premier League which would obviously suggests our team is good enough.
We do not get enough goals from the centre forward or shadow striker. The goals are shared between them two and the IW but I want us to create more gilt edged chances. A lot of them are pot shots inside the area, shots blocked or set pieces (we are strong there). This tactic does what I want us to do - control the game, press high, keep the ball and we see some lovely combinations but we're not getting the quality of chances to put away. We would be up there with Dynamo Kiev and Shakhtar if we did. I want my CF more involved in the build up and getting the chances in the box to put away. I'm not seeing this. I'm also not getting the movement from the SS even though he has the arrives late trait and get further forward.
At the other end, we are pretty good at the back but whilst we don't give up many chances, the oppo are much deadly than we are. Usually on the counter or through balls into the area. We have a good keeper for the level but whilst few of the goals look like they are his fault, he doesn't save much and therefore has a low average rating.
Basically I'm looking for advice on the front two combo and limiting key chances for the oppo. I wouldn't be too bothered about the latter but once we go 1 up we rarely go on and make our dominance pay so we are obviously vulnerable to the sucker punch.
Any ideas?
Forgot to add - tried all of the following but no real difference made
Work ball into box
CF (s)/SS
F9/SS
TM (a) and AM (s)/enganche
AM (a) and DLF (s)
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On 05/12/2020 at 23:45, engamohd said:
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It has been said that the 4-4-1-1 is the poor man's 4-2-3-1.
I couldn't disagree more.
The 4-4-1-1 as shown in the tactics creator on FM is in fact THE 4-2-3-1. In my opinion, the 4-4-1-1 is one of the most used formations in football, but one that is criminally underused in Football Manager.
In the 4-2-3-1, the wide attackers are positioned against the opposing wide defenders. This brings an advantage of keeping the wide forwards a moment away from pressuring the wide defenders should they receive the ball.
However, a moment of technical brilliance from the opposing wide defender (a dribble or a pass) could expose a gaping hole behind the wide attacker. A fullback would have to step and cover this space, but then, the team is already at a disadvantage.
These issues are demonstrated below, where Szoboszlai is already exploiting the massive space behind Sarr. The white RM is also enjoying the space behind Kent.
Therefore, I see that the 4-2-3-1 is the ultra aggressive variant of the 4-4-1-1, used by hardworking, pacey and skillful teams that properly execute and maintain a high press.
The 4-4-1-1 avoids these issues, although it have its own shortcomings just like any other formation. However, these shortcomings are, to me, more acceptable and easily remedied than the issues caused by top-heavy formations.
Strengths and Weaknesses of a 4-4-1-1
The many advantages of the 4-4-1-1 include:
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Simple and Neutral
The 4-4-1-1is quite similar to the 4-4-2 and is similarly easy to learn and implement. Also, the neutral positioning of the players in a 4-4-1-1 means it is neither ultra attacking nor ultra defensive, providing a solid base to exert control over the proceedings.
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Balanced
The 4-4-1-1 is a perfectly balanced formation that does not place a lot on particular players. It requires the entire team to be involved, and divides the responsibilities between pairings all across the field.
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Protects the Flanks
Unlike most top-heavy and narrow formations, the 4-4-1-1 actually provides a good base to protect the flanks, having two players manning each side.
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Solid in the Center
Although you can be outnumbered in the midfield, especially if the AMC is a Trequartista, the 4-4-1-1 can lock down the center if done right. Actually, most defensively solid teams in real life defend in a 4-4-1-1 or a 4-4-2 shape.
On the downside, a 4-4-1-1 can leave you exposed at the back if the fullbacks are too adventurous. Moreover, if you don't setup the player roles in the middle properly, you can get overrun in the middle.
The central midfielders should be hardworking above all. The Ball-Winning profile of players work well here, coupled with a more rounded midfielder I'd love to have a sort of a perfect Kante-Henderson pairing in the center to destroy opposing attacks and help transition the ball to our attackers.
Forwards also have to be in top form. Besides the late runs by the wide players, the central striker and his creative partner are your consistent threat, and they need to be in top form most of the time.
4-4-1-1 - My Best Tactic for Football Manager 2021
I have recently written about how I reached to my favoured 4-4-1-1 formation and playstyle on Football Manager. I had a lot of success in the beta. However after the full release, I restarted my Brentford, applying the same ideas and philosophies, to massive success.
We ran away with the league, scoring second most and conceding least. We had a great EFL Cup run, losing to Man Utd in the quarter finals on penalties, after knocking out Man-City in the previous round.
Individually, we had some massive success:
We are currently doing well in the Premier League:
The Tactic
I have tweaked a bit from the baseline I have used in my playstyle post. Nothing drastic, but allows the team to be more solid and offer a bit more threat.
Player Roles
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Goalkeeper: SK-D. Since we defend high, I expect the GK to sweep up the through balls played behind our defense.
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Central Defenders: CD-D & BPD-D. A quite standard pairing, allowing one to be BPD for a bit of creativity from our defense. Key attributes to look for are pace, acceleration and the mental attributes, especially anticipation, concentration and positioning. In my setup, I look for pacey defenders that could cover a massive space behind them.
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Right flank: FB-S & WM-A. For reasons stated above, I opted for a more conservative pairing on the right, a fullback coupled with a hardworking wide midfielder. I expect the WM to offer a bit of everything, while the FB offering protection, going forward when needed, without compromising his defensive duties.
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Left flank: WB-S & IW-A. On the other hand, the left flank should be more aggressive, with regular overlap from the wing-back. The inverted winger should have the inside forward profile, with high dribbling ability, to wreck havoc to defenses. The space vacated by the IW should be naturally exploited by the WB-S without the need for any additional instructions.
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Central Midfield: DLP-D & CM-S. I look to have two workhorses in the center. Ideally, the deep midfielder should be creative, and his partner should be of the box-to-box type, able to perform all sort of roles in the midfield.
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Forwards: AM-S & TM-A. This was the hardest part to get right. I prefer target men to all sorts of players. I believe that a striker playing alone upfront should be strong enough to hold the ball for the rest of the team. However, I look for a Complete Forward profile for that role, offering pace and dribbling ability beside his heading and physical ability. The player in the hole, on the other hand, should balance his "knitting" role with helping out the midfield to avoid being out numbered.
I am quite satisfied with our play, as we offer a lot of variety as we go forward. Our defensive play is impressive.
However, this isn't a plug and play super tactic. We struggle against 1 AM + 2 ST formations, and teams that play deep and attack with direct passes. Changes are required to counter such systems. I personally drop the CMs to DMs, and micro-manage our pressing and defensive lines. This is up to you as a manager
Finally, I leave you with a couple of goals scored by this setup.
I love 4411 and have had success in the past.
Pros - wonderful football and movement.
Great for posssession and pressing based systems.
Largely defensively solid
Cons - playing higher lines make you vulnerable to balls over the top
As you say AMs can cause havoc.
Can be tricky to get the front 2 combo right.
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I tend to go for a wide playmaker and a WB (a) overlapping behind. IW (a) is a cracking role, in front of CM (d) and to lock down that flank, FB (s). CM (d) I have alongside a BBM as an extra body going forward but that can make us vulnerable to balls over the top. I tend to use a CD on cover to counter that.
The hardest part for me was the front 2. I've had SS and DLF (s), SS and F9. This has worked for me with Sevilla in the last edition but managing Chernomorets in Ukraine, the players aren't as good. I might try out the AM (s) and TM (a)
Who are most of your chances falling to? I tend to get a spread throughout the team but I want my lone striker to get more of them as he is the best finisher in the side. Does the TM tend to dominate the box more as obviously the DLF and F9 drop off or move into channels? Doesn't the TM role attract the ball to him more? I absolutely batter sides but don't get what I deserve, I need to be more clinical hence why I'm only 2nd in the league. Not quite nailing the forward roles with lesser players.
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23 minutes ago, ElliottMS said:
I did the same thing. I set up a 4-4-1-1 and made sure to sign a couple more strikers, two APs in AMC position, a BWM (wanted another as backup but run out of budget), two left wingers, a left back and a better centre back. Currently fighting it out the top of VNS in December.
Using the assmans recommended tactics was disastrous. Barely created a shot on target. But lack of quality is also an issue.
Are you Braintree as well?
ive gone with a possession based 433 with a DLF Two IFs 2 B2B midfielders with a DLP in the DM strata. Attacking wing backs as well, working a treat.
had to buy a few Spanish free agents and loads of loans before results got better though.
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Yeah it is a great game and it’s a challenge. Started unemployed and ended up at Braintree. Was struggling a lot in the VNS, bottom after 18 games, constantly trying to find a setup to win games and got one now. Took a lot of patience and experimentation. Not just about having great players as in previous iterations. The game has enough depth to keep you occupied for ages.
a question or two if I can -
1) is there any way to see how long your injured players are out? Can’t find it anywhere? All I get is the notification how long he’s out but can’t review it later?
2) once players have recovered, I can see a green dot next to his name on the squad screen. What does this mean? Ready for 20 mins off the bench or not quite fully fit?
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Just want to say I'm mightily impressed with the mobile version this year. The match engine is an improvement on last year and the features are a big step up. Great value for money so hats off all round for a great product.
Only the issue with iPhone swiping but other than that, great job.
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Same with IPhone 6s
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How’s the match engine this time? On the last version there were just countless amounts of corners leading to nothing and wasn’t a lot of free flowing football from either me or the AI.
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Just now, FrazT said:
OK- maybe it is not available in the demo- I will see if I can find out
Cheers
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8 minutes ago, FrazT said:
It is not a preference feature it is only available at set up- I don't use the demo, but I cant see any reason why it wouldn't be available in the demo as this is just a short version of the full game. Try starting a clean new save with a new manager profile and see if that works.
Tried that and no the option to turn off attribute masking is not there at all. You can't even select the playable leagues etc within the country.
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3 minutes ago, FrazT said:
Turning attribute masking on and off is an option only at the set up stage of a new save- once you start, it cant be amended.
Sorry I didn't phrase that very well.
What I meant was is there an option to turn it off being starting a new save?
All it has that I can see on the main menu is quick start and there seems to be no option in preferences or otherwise to turn it off.
I just want to mess around on the game in the demo looking around etc.
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I'm playing the demo. Any way to turn off attribute masking?
Really like the game so far, nice and slick.
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If I buy this for IOS and later switch to an Android phone, would I have to buy the game again?
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Good move with that cash to spend but the facilities are a big minus. I'd be looking to spend to go up, consolidate in the Prem and then improve the facilities. What set up are you using?
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That was one hell of a choke!
Go for a bigger club next time with better facilities. Regret not taking the Lviv job?
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Adding instructions and playstyle to shapes & roles - building my 4-3-3 | Help welcomed
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted · Edited by bamb00zle
It could potentially but I'm not really having any issues, although I'm quite happy to sacrifice certain parts of the field to retain a significant defensive presence and like I say, we barely get any issues. This might be because we have a compact shape thus reducing space between the lines.
How's your lone forward getting on? I'm really struggling with mine. Whatever I try, I just can't get him to click. He gets the lowest average ratings in the team and most of the chances fall to the widemen and the two CMs. I want him to be the main scorer but it just ain't happening for me.