Tomor29
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Posts posted by Tomor29
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1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:
Unfortunately that's the thing, O-zil's ideas of using mostly support duties don't really work with FM20. Or not anymore. That's the reason why many of us went back to FM18. Maybe with a lot weird tactical tinkering like using extremely cautious overal team mentality combined with aggressive attack duties. Or very low tempo. You might make it work in a similar way. But i find it's gotten too counterintuitive. Like why do we have to do such complex tactical gymnastics, sometimes using very defensive team mentality and aggressive roles to recreate something that in FM18 was possible with just Very Fluid approach, some generalist support roles and barely any team instructions?
Many thanks for your answer. Good to know that it doesn´t make sense to go this way in FM20. I do not like the idea to going back to previous versions as I like some other aspects of current game, so will look for other tactics.
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7 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:
I don't like to tour my own horn but I sort of been trying this on and off since FM19 and have been chronicling it on here and on the dictatethegame fan site. It used to be much more satisfying and effective but kinda dropped after a few patches to FM20. But here is the thread if you want to see my earlier attempts.
Well, I have read all your articles many times (fantastic work and great reading btw.) and used many of your ideas. I tried many versions of TF but really never managed to reproduce nice, free-flowing total football.
Then I found this thread with some other great ideas and a bit different approach to TF and really liked the idea of creating team on same (or very similar) mentalities and mostly support duties. It is all well explained and makes sense. But I tried various versions and really never ended with nice style of play. We may be winning but surely not producing THAT style of football and all of sudden we are scoring MUCH LESS than before - all in contrary to ideas of TF. So my question is - has anyone successfully implemented O-zil´s ideas to FM20 and producing some nice football then?
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On 31/05/2020 at 14:04, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:
Edit: just tagging @fmFutbolManager to make sure you see the link above as it may be useful for your mentality calculator..
OK so this should indeed be a 'go to' resource for anyone trying to navigate the Football Manager 2020 tactics creator. Thanks again for sharing.
Nothing new for those who have followed the Caixa Academy threat but it's nicely laid out all in one place.
Applying this to the style of play we are trying to create gives two options:
Which gives you:Balanced Positive Positive Positive Positive Positive Positive Positive Positive Positive Positive
Or knock the mentality down to positive, switch to inside forwards and have the fullbacks overlap for:
Which gives you:
Balanced Attacking Attacking Positive Positive Balanced Attacking Balanced Balanced Attacking Balanced
Unfortunately you lose the mystique of the entire team playing the collective, attacking football but both should work pretty wellThis is a fantastic thread and some really nice discussion and tips regarding total football. I have to appreciate all the hard work and knowledge of many users in this and other threads regarding this style of football. After reading this I tried to create tactic for my AZ team and implement total football there but even with the "recommended" setup had very limited success - we are getting wins but I would describe it as "winning ugly", have only limited number of chances and goals scored and surely are not playing any kind of total football.
Now I am reading that it is difficult to successfully create this style of play in FM20, so my question is - has anyone success with implementing these ideas in FM20 saves and actually playing any kind of total football? Many thanks for your answers.
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Totally agree with you and this is something I miss a lot.
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16 minutes ago, Snorks said:
I would think that the Dutch Div 2 would be more beneficial when it comes to player development - but I may be wrong.
I think because the competition ranking would be higher, therefore the players are playing under more pressure etc etc.
I am of the exact same opinion and for this reason choose leagues and clubs with B teams in standart league structure. But it would be great if someone from SI could confirm it.
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Thanks for your feedback, pals.
But I just need to know what is the difference between reserve team structure and B team playing in standart league structure compiting with other teams. To demonstate in on an example - let´s take similar teams in similar leagues - AZ in Holland and Genk in Belgium. Genk has its reserve team in reserve league competition (the highest reserve league), meanwhile AZ has its B team in 2nd Dutch division. Is there any real difference? Mainly if we talk about youth development of players playing in these teams.
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Well, I have to say that I have the exactly opposite experience as I recieve many offers for my players, highly exceeding their market value, and have no problem to sell players and make huge profit. But I should note that I build an extremelly young and talented squad that attracts some of the best European clubs. Database size and number of loaded leagues can surely play big role here.
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Hello everyone,
I would like to start a discussion about the importance of B/reserve teams for youth development and mainly find a clear answer on my question - Is there any real difference between having reserve/B team in standart league structure (such as in Holland (partly), Portugal, Germany, France, Spain), where these teams play in lower leagues and can be promoted to higher levels (up to 2nd league in Holland, Portugal, 3rd in Germany, Spain etc.) and having reserve teams in reserve leagues such as in England, Belgium. In my eyes it is much better if you have B team in a standart league structure but is there any real difference? One way better than the other? And mainly what impact does it have on youth development? Do players develop better when they play 2nd/3rd league or reserve league?
I really would like to find answer and would appreciate your opinions. Thanks.
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I will for sure choose small, most probably lower league in that country but as the team grows up and achieve success then prize money/tv rights/sponsorship plays huge role and can ruin the challenge. Most of clubs in real life have problems with finances, so this should be possible.
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Hello everyone,
I would like to start a new long term save in an European league and play with "no attribute" skin, implement some kind of moneyball and some other transfer restrictions and concentrate on youth development. I want to help my team to slowly improve and move up in the ranks and possibly challenge for the domestic title and European success one day. But first I have to decide which league to choose. I would really like to play for Kaiserslautern or Munich 1860 from German third division as they both meet most of my criterias (rich history, fallen giants, nice facilities etc.) but I fear that Bundesliga and even 2. Bundesliga are generating too much money from TV rights and sponsorship and this would somehow ruin the meaning of my challenge as it is important not to have much money and not become one of the richest clubs in the world after several season. What do you think? I have also excluded England for the same reason.
So what league what you choose? It shouldn´t generate so much money but also be good enough to actually allow me to bring some European success and keep most of my players and also should be challenging enough with some big teams to overcome (I have to note that I usually loose my motivation to play once I start to dominate the league). So I need to find balance between these criterias. I also should say that I prefer countries with B/reserve teams playing in normal league structure but this isn´t required.
So this leaves me with these countries:
1) Spain - but this is probably also generating too much money from sponsorship and TV rights, isn´t it?
2) France - never managed in this country, so how does it look with income and overall finances in League 1?
and then from slowly "smaller" leagues...
3) Holland/Portugal - both look great in my eyes and are very similar but I played for AZ Alkmaar in my last save and totally dominated domestically from season one, so I am not sure it is challenging enough (but it should be mentioned that AZ have extremelly talented squad)
4) Belgium
I would really like to hear your opinion and recommendations. Many thanks.
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I have absolutelly no idea how these things are done, so sorry for this but I have to ask - would you be so kind to implement this to your skin? Or similarly - is it possible to somehow use the "no attribute" feature in other skins? And if so, could you tell me how can this be done? Many thanks.
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On 26/01/2020 at 22:37, wkdsoul said:
bars one is unplay tested, let me know if you find any issues. (in news popups i;'ve missed or anything)
Hello @wkdsoul,
in the end I have mostly tested your other skin - No Attribute Skin - as I really like the idea of playing without numerical attributes. I would like to ask you if it would be also possible to somehow remove stars for CA/PA from all pages (and ideally replace it with Pros and Cons from scout reports. Many thanks.
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2 hours ago, Ether_mR said:
One thing I have wanted to do for some time was to play without attributes listed as numbers and instead colors only. Here is the inspiration, if you try it; good luck and let me know how it goes.
This is something I have been thinking a lot recently and I am quite tempted to try it. To play without attributes or replace attributes with just color bars for attribute ranges. This could be very well combinated with some kind of Moneyball principles. I have found Shrewnaldo skin that replaces attributes but would like to know if there is a possibility to also remove stars for CA/PA. Can anyone help me?
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Then both teams look like good choices. The main difference is in the league then - there is much more money in Spain, so this may be easier for you. I would also recommend you some other teams with highly talented squads - Sporting Gijon in Spain, AZ Alkmaar in Holland or Hamburg/Leverkusen in Germany.
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1 hour ago, ernemann said:
Im looking for a new save and I cant make up my mind. Im gonna play with Real Santander or AJ Auxerre, but the clubs are very similar and often get very nice talents. Who would you choose?
Your choice should mainly depend on how do you want to play your game - do you want to develop youngsters as main priority? Or rather sign players from other clubs? Home or foreign? Prompt success or rather slowly building your way up?
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Thanks for your replies and joining this discussion...
16 hours ago, rinso said:Try some of the challenges in the Challenges forum, limit yourself to signing certain players, impose restrictions on your save.. and don't use any external tools ( no idea if you do or not, just saying) or the in game editor.. or reload... it doesnt matter if it's realistic or not, if it keeps you interested..
Yes, I always make some restrictions to transfer policy of my clubs, mostly do not sign any players over 21 or even 18, sign players only from some nations to make it harder and also to better replicate real transfer policy of the club etc. But it shouldn´t be that way, should be? That you limit yourself, make your own restrictions to make it harder. It should be the other way, that you try to take any potential advantage to achieve success and move your club further. And of course I don´t use any external tools, game editor etc., that wouldn´t make any sense.
13 hours ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:Usually i can stay always at the same club (usually Mtk in Hungary), building a team buying only U20 and i take 5 years (depends if the team was in first or second division) to dominate the nation. (Win in Europe It another story cause depends from how much inproved the league rep).
In this edition i'm at 2036 i change 10 clubs at least never succeded to keep working at a club like past edition.
Well, good for you as it must be fun to slowly build your way up.
2 hours ago, chris31k said:You have the problem that every player has in every game. The AI is nowhere near the human intelligence.
You are right, for sure. AI cannot be as good as human players but on the other hand I have no problems with AI in some other areas of FM - I would say that I am not beating AI on tactical field and find it challenging enough but this cannot be said about transfer market, squad building and human resources in general. Just one example - hos is it possible that we can regularly sell average squad players for fees we would never pay for them? It happens again and again. And then we bring players of same or even better quality for much smaller fees.
1 hour ago, Bry said:I agree with the OP's sentiments. However, I think that a lot of us have grown up with a game that, while it has become a much more polished and in depth experience, hasn't changed a great deal in terms of how to 'beat' it and manipulate its mechanics. It's therefore no surprise that a lot of people have become very good at it and find it too easy. But I remember it took me years to become any good at it, and if SI made the game any harder it would likely turn off newcomers.
As an aside, IMO if FM was remotely realistic (it's a bit bonkers that some people think it is) and faithful to a real career arc, it wouldn't be much fun to play. The vast majority of managers stay at a club for barely more than a couple of seasons nowadays and have nowhere near the level of responsibility that FM affords. That being said, real managers have to conduct scores of menial tasks daily. Most clubs stay around the same level IRL, rattling between the same few divisions for years, even decades, on end. All of this would be an absolute dirge to play and one may as well go get a FIFA badge and try it for real. But it's not a criticism. FM has to be unrealistic and focus on the romantic escapism of a once in a blue moon Eddie Howe-esque rise through the leagues with an underdog club.
I partly agree with you, partly not. You are right that we have some experience as long term players and it surely helps a lot if you know what is working and what isn´t but I do not think that you need any experience to beat AI on the transfer market, sign talented youngsters and sell for big. You can always find AI releasing highly talented players, transfer listing them or selling for almost nothing and in contrary overpaying for your players. I always find it very interesting that a youngsters who draws interest of some of the world´s biggest teams then decides to sign for my team that is an average club from a small league. This would never happen in real life, would it? Or maybe 1 out of 100 cases.
1 hour ago, Welshace said:And what experience are you giving yourself at the start of each save? As this is essentially the difficulty settings we have for a save.
Also, and i can only go from the one example you give us, you picked a massive club in the lower leagues that are expected to climb back up the leagues to the bundesliga.. so what did you expect?
Lowest experience, no coaching badges, ALWAYS.
I cannot agree with your second notice - Ok, Kaiserslautern that I used as an example is a big club, you are right, but is in the third league with not a great squad and surely not expected to win everything and challenge for the Bundesliga title in 3-4 years. Just have a look at their real life achievements - there´re stuck in the third division, on average position for the second year. So, they may have potential but their way up should be rather slow. It would be much more fun for me to stay 2-3 years in 3.Liga than slowly build a squad and finances for promotion from second divison and then try to establish us in Bundesliga. This should take many seasons in my eyes.
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Hello everyone,
I have a topic I would like to discuss with this community. I really love this game and am playing it since CM times. It´s really great and addictive. But I really believe that the game should be MUCH more difficult to play than it is. I am in a no way a tactical genius, actually I would say that I am pretty average in this area of play and usually create just one solid tactic with very limited in game chances or reactions on opponent´s strenghts. I do not like to manage big teams with the highest ambitions and big money, instead of it I prefer to build a club structure, develop players and bring my club to the top. So I always choose teams that are in some crisis, fallen giants, clubs in financial troubles or just an average teams with talents that have some big team rivals in the league. Never choose a team that is expecting an immediate success (win the title, get promoted etc.) rather teams that aren´t expecting that much in the first season.
I really like the atmosphere when you have some time to build your team and start process of a long term success. I would have no problem if it would take 5 or 10 seasons to achieve that, to bring an average or even lower divison club to the top and become one of the best of the league. But it always happens almost immediately and I lose my motivation then and try to find some new challenges but then it happens again and again. No matter which club or league I choose. This is achived just by human resources - I always invest mainly in my staff, coaches and scouts, improve club facilities and develop relationships with my players. After the first season it all gets too easy - scouts find top class talents, I have no problem to sign them, develop and make huge profit by selling them. It is too easy to bring good staff and players, people that in reality wouldn´t join such teams and only the biggest clubs could sign them. The transfer market is too easy to expose and make huge money there and become one of the richest clubs.
After a few seasons I finish with squad full of top class youngsters, that can dominate domestically and most of the biggest clubs are trying to buy them for big money. Last year I choose Kaiserslautern in German third league, I like the club and wanted to slowly bring them back to Bundesliga. I thought it will take several seasons before we get there but we managed back-to-back promotions and in the first season on the top tier finished second just behind Bayern, same as the next year. It may sound silly for some of you but this rapid progress took the pleasure out of my game for me as I really want to slowly build the club, go step-by-step, think twice about every signing and every euro paid and of course occasionally find a gem and make huge money on him. But this should happen once in a few years, instead of several times every season. And the same with AZ Alkmaar, Auxerre and many other teams this year. To limit this and make the progress slower I even implement various transfer policies to my teams - sign only domestic players/players from neighboring countries, only players of 18 or youngers, limit the number of transfers for every season, try to implement moneyball principles etc. but this is not realistic as clubs normally do not limit themself to make it harder for them and also it usually do not help to slower the progress too much. In the end I lose my motivation after 3-4 seasons when I achieve my goals and must start with a new club.
As I said I am not beating my rivals on the pitch, thanks my tactics but on the transfer market and the game allows it again and again. And this is my biggest problem with this lovely game as it really brings the joy from me and I believe most of the players must have similar experience. Sure, some of you may enjoy to become totally dominant club after several years and win trophies again and again but for me there is no room for improvements then. Also I find it highly unrealistic that many people have to play various challenges to make it harder for them, that many players can complete youth only challenge etc. and it only shows that the game should be much, much harder to play.
So what is your opinion on this topic? And also would you recommend me any team, any challenge that would allow me to play a long term save, to build a club, its infrastructure and slowly progress towards the top? Think twice about every euro paid, every signing, every step?
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Great discussion here. I am also thinking about starting new career game with a moneyball challenge and its principles.
The teams I think would make sense are:
1) Munich 1860 and 1.FCK in Germany - both in the third league, both with nice history and good facilities. Munich in big depts, so there would be logical if they implement moneyball principles. But I have some doubts about Germany as there could be too much money once we get promoted to the top league.
2) Bolton in England - not too much to say here as this would be definitelly an ultimate moneyball challenge with no money and 12 points deficit at the start of the game. But I agree that England isn´t the best country for such a challenge because of the prize money there.
3) Several teams in Ligue 2 in France such as Auxerre, Le Havre or Sochaux - all with some nice history, decent affilities, solid squads and representing good challenge for next years.
4) Belgium or Holland - Eupen with money from Qatar, Mouscron with orientation on players from Balcan, Vitesse, Twente... all could be good choices in my eyes.
Munich 1860 or Bolton would be my choices, but I really fear the fact that there is too much money in top leagues in these countries and that could easily ruin the moneyball approach, so will go to France most probably.
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Many thanks for your reply and link to downloads!
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Hello everyone,
my question is already in the title - how could I replace attributes (numbers) with graphical charts? I have seen that someone uses this but unfortunatelly do not know where I found it. Could anyone help me? Thanks.
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9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:11 hours ago, Tomor29 said:
What changes would you make to open lowly sitting defensive teams?
Probably nothing (or at least nothing too big), because you yourself wrote:
13 hours ago, Tomor29 said:we had some problems in matches against weaker sides (most of the remaining league teams). We achieve to win in the end, on most occassions
Therefore, you are actually managing to break them down in most cases.
Yes, we usually beat them in the end but the difference in quality of players is really big, so we beat these opponents thanks to this, not because of the tactic. And as I said usually have to make some tactical changes (would like to know what other would change in these situations), otherwise fans would be watching very boring game with low number of shots and chances created.
9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:14 hours ago, Tomor29 said:but find it much more difficult to create chances and score goals against these teams, teams that are mainly defending against us
Which is quite normal and logical. Because it's always easier to create good chances against stronger teams who attack you and thus leave more space for you to exploit, than defensive ones who defend with 9-10 men behind the ball all the time. But when you have a good tactic, the advantage your players have over the opposition in terms of quality will in most cases prevail in the end. And your tactic looks pretty good IMO
Sure, it is. But I have a feeling we have to adapt our tactic to the fact that most sides are heavily defending against us. It works sooooo well against opponents that offer us some space and want to play open game with us, but there surely room for improvements against weaker teams.
9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:P.S; in fact, there is a tweak I would make specifically against those weaker opponents - I would remove the
CounterTI. Do you know why?I guess because of the fact that these sides, when sitting low, do not offer any space to us and therefore there is little room for counters?
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45 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:
Actually, passing into space should make more sense precisely against those strong opponents than against weaker ones, especially when you play away from home, because strong teams are likely to leave you more space (unlike defensive teams, which look to deny you the space).
My mistake. There should be that I remove it against defending, lowly sitting teams as there is no space to attack.
47 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:It's not surprising that a mezzala have a good number of crosses, especially as your both wide players on his side are played in roles that are hard-coded to sit/cut inside and cross less. Btw, you need to know that crosses from set pieces are also counted in match stats. So if your mezzala is a set piece taker, it can also contribute to this high number of crosses.
Yes, he is set piece taker, both corners and free kicks, so this explains it. Thanks.
What changes would you make to open lowly sitting defensive teams?
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After almost a whole season played, I feel it´s time to come back with some feedback and ask for further optimization. I made some tweaks and finished with this starting tactic...
It works pretty well but there is still room for improvements. I am happy how we play against strong opponents (usually drop the LOE and remove Pass into Space TI) as we create plenty of good chances with fast attacking play. This way we defeated all big teams in the league, including demolition of Ajax side, a match that could be rated as the best match of this year´s edition for me.
On the other hand we had some problems in matches against weaker sides (most of the remaining league teams). We achieve to win in the end, on most occassions, but find it much more difficult to create chances and score goals against these teams, teams that are mainly defending against us. What changes could help us to be more effective against deep defences? I tried to increase width of our play, tweak some duties/roles but failed to consistently break defences and create chances. We usually do not have much problems to dominate but it is rather steril domination. Any advices?
There are also several things that surprised me...
1) The tactic was created and roles choosen with intention to overload left side with our players and then attack right side with IF on attack duty. So I would expect that the play will be oriented mainly on the left side and that this will be reflected on the heat map. But the opposite is true on most occassions.
2) What also surprises me is the fact, that MC on the left side, Mezzala on attack duty, regularly has the highest number of crosses (by far). What is the reasoning behind this? And also I would expect that both central midfielders will be more involved in our passing game and how much higher number of passes made. Our teams stats usually show something like this:
Any feedback is welcomed here.
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Well, you managed to make several things clear for me but honestly in general I feel similarly confused as at the start of this thread
and actually do not know whether this tactic will allow me to successfully replicate my desired style of play or how to fix the central midfield and make my creative players more involved in our play. Many thanks for your feedback and help anyway!
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and actually do not know whether this tactic will allow me to successfully replicate my desired style of play or how to fix the central midfield and make my creative players more involved in our play. Many thanks for your feedback and help anyway!
Total Football (Very Fluid)
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
I usually do not have any big problem to create some kind of winning tactic but this time I wanted to replicate some specific kind of football (mainly total football that I really like and admire) instead. I do not want to just win but mainly win in an exact way. It´s a pitty that it is hardly possible in this edition but I still really like the game and I am already looking for FM21 and its new additions.