Training Methodology

[Nick Toye]

I have been trying to workout the training module and how to get the best out of the players by training them in areas I believe to be the main attributes required.

So first of all I did this:

1. Took note of all the different training areas (Strength, Aerobic, Tactics, etc...) and then divided the amount of training skills per area by 23 (the amount of notches that equals the final white line before intensive kicks in.) Strength for example equals 5 notches per training attribute.

2. Then I took note of the different attributes I saw as Key attributes per position, and put them into the different training areas. For example Centre Backs for me have 2 attributes that are Key in the Strength training area. (Strength and Work Rate).

3. Then I multiplied 2 by 5, which is obviously 10, and that is the amount of notches I apply to the Strength slider while developing my Centre Backs training schedule.

I know its all pretty much maths and what I perceive as valuable attributes, but I'm not sure its working so well. My centre backs schedule came in at 2 notches under the 4th white line, so I had plenty of room to train in more areas.

What I may do is see how well they adapt over a 3 month period.

Any opinions?

[Lyssien]

OK, on first read I have two things to note:

- The training load is not the same for all attributes. If we assume that each training regime notch (e.g. one Attacking notch) counts for training load=1, then the training load for each regime notch goes like this:

Aerobic: training load = 3

Strength: = 3

Goalkeeping = 1

Tactics = 1

Ball Control = 1

Defending = 1

Attacking = 1

Shooting = 1

Set Pieces = 1/3

This is the training workload that each notch of each regime causes, irrespective of how many attributes are involved in each regime. As a result, the default general schedule amounts to training load of 11x3 + 11x3 + 0x1 + 11x1 + 11x1 + 11x1 + 11x1 + 11x1 + 11x1/3 = (approx) 125.

Now, the Defending regime involves 3 attributes, which means that each defending attribute amounts to training workload of 1/3, while set pieces involves 5 attributes, which means that each set pieces attribute amounts to a load of 1/3 /5 = 1/15.

On the other hand, player development does not seem to work like that. It seems that with the general schedule, an all around player with no position (for simplicity, so that no attribute is more important than other) would develop almost evenly, irrespective of how many attributes are in each regime. So I don't think your method will work. Your method would work only if we could choose which regime attribute would get all the training improvement, but we can't. So if I want Concentration to improve, I have to work Tackling and Marking by the same amount, I have to improve those too.

- Some attributes are more important for each position, as you have already realised. However, those are harder to improve than the rest, because they take up more Ability points than the others. Also, developed attributes are harder to improve than undeveloped. Furthermore, most mental attributes are easier to improve than technical or physical after a certain age. You seem to not have take these things into account.

[Nick Toye]

OK, on first read I have two things to note:

- The training load is not the same for all attributes. If we assume that each training regime notch (e.g. one Attacking notch) counts for training load=1, then the training load for each regime notch goes like this:

Aerobic: training load = 3

Strength: = 3

Goalkeeping = 1

Tactics = 1

Ball Control = 1

Defending = 1

Attacking = 1

Shooting = 1

Set Pieces = 1/3

This is the training workload that each notch of each regime causes, irrespective of how many attributes are involved in each regime. As a result, the default general schedule amounts to training load of 11x3 + 11x3 + 0x1 + 11x1 + 11x1 + 11x1 + 11x1 + 11x1 + 11x1/3 = (approx) 125.

Now, the Defending regime involves 3 attributes, which means that each defending attribute amounts to training workload of 1/3, while set pieces involves 5 attributes, which means that each set pieces attribute amounts to a load of 1/3 /5 = 1/15.

On the other hand, player development does not seem to work like that. It seems that with the general schedule, an all around player with no position (for simplicity, so that no attribute is more important than other) would develop almost evenly, irrespective of how many attributes are in each regime. So I don't think your method will work. Your method would work only if we could choose which regime attribute would get all the training improvement, but we can't. So if I want Concentration to improve, I have to work Tackling and Marking by the same amount, I have to improve those too.

- Some attributes are more important for each position, as you have already realised. However, those are harder to improve than the rest, because they take up more Ability points than the others. Also, developed attributes are harder to improve than undeveloped. Furthermore, most mental attributes are easier to improve than technical or physical after a certain age. You seem to not have take these things into account.

To be honest I am still new at all this and just getting my hands dirty. I thought what I had done made sense, and from what you have said it may have done, but its obviously a different animal deep down under the hood.

A few questions then.

1. What's a developed attribute? One over 10?

2. Which mental attributes are easier to improve after a certain age?

3. How do you know all this? I mean its not in the manual, have you had contact with the developers?

4. Can you explain the notches thing again? Where do you get the number 11 from?

[Lyssien]

1. I don't understand.

If you mean how much ability each attribute takes up, that's different for each attribute (to be accurate, different for each group of attributes), and the weight factor depends on the player's position. For example, it takes a fair amount of Ability increase in order to improve a Striker's Pace or Finishing by 1, while it's much easier to improve his Tackling, which is not as important, and therefore takes up less Ability. If overall Current Ability does not rise, improving Pace means that other attributes must fall.

2. Almost all of them (tre trainable ones, Determination, Bravery, Aggression, Influence are not trainable), except for Teamwork and Work Rate. So I find that Composure has a greater chance to improve than Finishing, for a 28-yo striker, although they are trained with the same training regime.

3. I mostly know because I am very interested in how my players develop, so I try to keep track of things. In previous FM versions I have run extensive tests on training, and things have not changed that much since. Also, I used to be a greek database researcher, so I have a fair understanding of how Current Ability for each player is calculated, although I don't know the details of the formula.

4. Yes, I was not very clear. 11 means "11 notches", which is the default General Schedule workload for each regime (except for goalkeeping, which is zero notches). This is how far to the right each slider goes. So, 11 Aerobic notches amounts to training workload = 33, because each Aerobic notch is three times heavier than the norm ("norm" = Goalkeeping, Tactics, Ball Control, Defending, Attacking, Shooting, each notch of which weights the same).

You can find this out by noticing how much the overall workload is affected by moving each notch one position.

[Nick Toye]

1. I don't understand.

If you mean how much ability each attribute takes up, that's different for each attribute (to be accurate, different for each group of attributes), and the weight factor depends on the player's position. For example, it takes a fair amount of Ability increase in order to improve a Striker's Pace or Finishing by 1, while it's much easier to improve his Tackling, which is not as important, and therefore takes up less Ability. If overall Current Ability does not rise, improving Pace means that other attributes must fall.

2. Almost all of them (tre trainable ones, Determination, Bravery, Aggression, Influence are not trainable), except for Teamwork and Work Rate. So I find that Composure has a greater chance to improve than Finishing, for a 28-yo striker, although they are trained with the same training regime.

3. I mostly know because I am very interested in how my players develop, so I try to keep track of things. In previous FM versions I have run extensive tests on training, and things have not changed that much since. Also, I used to be a greek database researcher, so I have a fair understanding of how Current Ability for each player is calculated, although I don't know the details of the formula.

4. Yes, I was not very clear. 11 means "11 notches", which is the default General Schedule workload for each regime (except for goalkeeping, which is zero notches). This is how far to the right each slider goes. So, 11 Aerobic notches amounts to training workload = 33, because each Aerobic notch is three times heavier than the norm ("norm" = Goalkeeping, Tactics, Ball Control, Defending, Attacking, Shooting, each notch of which weights the same).

You can find this out by noticing how much the overall workload is affected by moving each notch one position.

1. What I mean is, you said developed attributes are harder to improve than undeveloped attributes. I just wanted to know how do you define a developed attribute.

2. Was this discovered through your testing and experience?

3. Me too, I enjoy the micro-management of the training aspect, and also like to keep track of all my players. Are you as obssessive a me? Do you make a note of the changes per month?

4. 11 notches? I actually counted 25 notches on the slider.

[Lyssien]

1. Assume that Composure = 5, Finishing = 10 and Long Shots = 15. Without actually testing it, I seem to notice that in such circumstances the next "Shooting attribute" to improve is going to be Composure (because it's the least developed one).

2. Through experience.

3. What do my answers tell you?

I don't need to check every month any more, because of the attribute development screen of each player. But before this screen was introduced (a couple of versions back), I did!

4. 11 "active" notches. On the default General Schedule, all sliders (bar the goalkeeping one) are on the 11th notch. Maybe I am not saying this clearly, I know english, but it's not my mother language.

[Nick Toye]

Right, so 11 notches is the default amount of notches on the general schedule. But there are 25 notches right?

"because each Aerobic notch is three times heavier than the norm ("norm" = Goalkeeping, Tactics, Ball Control, Defending, Attacking, Shooting, each notch of which weights the same)."

I don't understand that last part.

[RobinGoodey]

Right, so 11 notches is the default amount of notches on the general schedule. But there are 25 notches right?

"because each Aerobic notch is three times heavier than the norm ("norm" = Goalkeeping, Tactics, Ball Control, Defending, Attacking, Shooting, each notch of which weights the same)."

I don't understand that last part.

On the general schedule, move one of the sliders to the far left. This is notch 1. Now click this slider to the right 10 times - this will move it to notch 11 (1+10=...) You will now notice that it is back where it started, level with all the other sliders.

If you create a "Test" schedule, and move all the sliders to the far left (if they aren't there already). Now click on the Tactics slider (or defending, attacking etc) and as you are clicking, look how much the "Overall" slider moves. Now return that slider to the 1st notch, and try the same with the Aerobic slider. What Lyssien is saying is that the overall slider moves 3 times as much when you click Aerobic, as it does for the other sliders.

Clear?

[Nick Toye]

Yeah think so.