Help/advice/critisizm understanding tactical issues & creation - FM17

[Hailie]

Hi,

After a few year serving for the military I arrived back home and able to play the game I purchased a few years ago but never had the time to play.

I've read some guides to refresh my mind (hopefully).

I like challenges so I chose playing with Hull city.

Bear in mind this is going to be long, I tried to provide some context & depth, if more info is required to analyze please let me know.

I've created a tactic based on what I've read so far (in this forums, sticky threads and others):

 

 

I will try to explain the reasoning and why I chose this mentality/instructions/roles and duties, I hope it make sense.

Mentality:

When we have the ball I don't want to over commit and give away possession too easily + we aren't the strongest team in the league so I assume playing cautiously would make sense?!

Instructions:

1. Defensive line - I don't want my defensive line dropping too deep, so I decided to push it slightly higher.
2. Passing - on the start of the save I've started with mixed and then changed to short, during pre-season I've noticed the back 4 players were trying risky passes and that's the reason for the "shorter passing"
3. Play out of Defence: this vary between opponent, I tend to remove play out of defense if we are playing against high pressing teams.
4. Prevent short GK distribution - I don't want to see the opponent passing the ball at the back.
5. Use the offside trap - in one of my pre-season games one of my players decide to become a tourist and stay on the back.            

Roles & duties:

FB-su - for defense stability

CD-d

CD-d

WB-su - adding width

DM-de - sitter to protect the defence

W-su - to provide width

CM-a - a runner

CM-su - I thought that maybe changing it to DLP or an AP-s would be a fine idea?

WM-A - runner to add penetration

DF-Su/DLF-su - dropping deep to hopefully not get isolated

 

Hull city already had some decent/not bad players in my humble opinion:

 

I've made some signings to build the squad, I could barely find an interesting players (& players who are interested to join hull) to start building a club DNA.

No quality FB want to join our team and we don't have a quality right FB in our squad so an interesting find I manage to get is Brazilian CM player I thought of re-train him as a complete wing back with a hope that he will do the job.

 

I've sold 3 players that weren't good enough for premiere league sides and managed to convince major players to join our team, such as Hirving Lozano, Thiago Maia, Sebastián Driussi, Cristian Pavón.

but I'm not sure if that's good enough for the premiere league side.

 

A huge issue is we are a completely new team, and probably it will take time for them to blend.

from the beginning of the save I've set the training to:

 

We managed to gain some fluidity very fast, and seems like they slowly getting blend together:

 

 

So far we've played 3 matches, 1st match was against Arsenal, they won 3-1 conveniently.

 

 

2nd match was against Bournemouth, we won 1-0.

Tbf it was so close to end up 1-1 and their player was sent off at 45 minute of the game.

Their number 9 was missing 2 shots that should have been scored.

 

I couldn't tell why my players were making poor long shots decisions.

In order to reduce the terrible long shots decision I thought maybe we need to change the movement, so I changed the WB-Su to WB-a and the WMa to WMSu &the MCL (CMSu) to DLP but it didn't helped much.

In pre-season we did encounter some matches with the same problem, but I'm still not sure what need to be done and change (in-case its not the roles & duties)?
 

 

Our 3rd match was against Sunderland we won but again it was such a poor performance, it was pure luck I increased the mentality to control and reduce the defensive line to normal and remove the Play out of defense

and we somehow manage to steal an own goal with luck.

 

This are the matches I've played so far, the result are great and beyond my expectation, but I feel there are tactical issues that needs to be addressed on the attack side.

since I was having the exact same problems in my friendlies matches in pre season (long shots), I assume there's a problem either with my mentality approach or tactics that needs to be tweaked?

I thought of sharing here and hopefully someone might be able to help or advice?

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Hailie

[Hailie]

I've played so far and the results are terrible.

My players keep taking long range shots.

 

I tried to do the following but no luck:

 

1) I added width (team instruction) and also raised the MR & ML to the AMR-Wsu/AML-IFa position and I increased the mentality to counter + I removed the short passing, it did improved to some extent

but it led to lots of chances missing and after few matches again, long shots become a problem .

2) I also tried to rotate between my strikers and they both missing fine opportunities, or atleast opportunities that the opposition might score against us if it were the opposite. 

The opposition GK tend to make insane saves and get high ratings, it cause me losing 8 matches in a raw, while 5 games in a raw the opposition GK gets high ratings at approximately 7.5-8,

this lead to frustration and makes me want to quit due to opposition having only 4 shots 3 of them are longs shots and 1 goal.

it feels like my team needs to work their *** up in order to get 1 goal (even against Bury - Sky bet league 1) but the opposition does it very effectively having 1 chance or 1 long shots quite often.

I understand its impossible to avoid conceding with my team against premiere league side, but I want to understand why I'm not able to score, is it a problem with my tactic or maybe a player stats?
those are also the strikers I'm using adding Druissi and Lozano I posted on my previous post.

 

 

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

[The3points]

I don't undertstand what type of strategy you are going for. I haven't played FM17 but I think a high line is contradicting the mentality a little bit.

[Hailie]

4 minutes ago, The3points said:

I don't undertstand what type of strategy you are going for. I haven't played FM17 but I think a high line is contradicting the mentality a little bit.

Thank you for the reply.

I think I've read that mentality is like a template so I can then choose the TI's according to the way I want my players to play.

So I choosed the slight higher line so my players won't drop too deep an invite heavy pressure.

Is it wrong?

[CARRERA]

29 minutes ago, Hailie said:

Thank you for the reply.

I think I've read that mentality is like a template so I can then choose the TI's according to the way I want my players to play.

So I choosed the slight higher line so my players won't drop too deep an invite heavy pressure.

Is it wrong?

How do you envision your team to actually play? Or are you just looking for results?

[Hailie]

32 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

How do you envision your team to actually play?

On 10/11/2022 at 22:53, Hailie said:

 

 

 

I will try to explain the reasoning and why I chose this mentality/instructions/roles and duties, I hope it make sense.

Mentality:

When we have the ball I don't want to over commit and give away possession too easily + we aren't the strongest team in the league so I assume playing cautiously would make sense?!

Instructions:

1. Defensive line - I don't want my defensive line dropping too deep, so I decided to push it slightly higher.
2. Passing - on the start of the save I've started with mixed and then changed to short, during pre-season I've noticed the back 4 players were trying risky passes and that's the reason for the "shorter passing"
3. Play out of Defence: this vary between opponent, I tend to remove play out of defense if we are playing against high pressing teams.
4. Prevent short GK distribution - I don't want to see the opponent passing the ball at the back.
5. Use the offside trap - in one of my pre-season games one of my players decide to become a tourist and stay on the back.            

Roles & duties:

FB-su - for defense stability

CD-d

CD-d

WB-su - adding width

DM-de - sitter to protect the defence

W-su - to provide width

CM-a - a runner

CM-su - I thought that maybe changing it to DLP or an AP-s would be a fine idea?

WM-A - runner to add penetration

DF-Su/DLF-su - dropping deep to hopefully not get isolated

With short passing to unlock the defense creating quality chances rather than hoofing the ball into space.

I don't know, maybe I'm doing something wrong and my tactical appraoch isn't suited.

32 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

Or are you just looking for results?

I don't understand the question, would you mind to rephrase it? what do you mean?

Edited November 12, 2022 by Hailie

[The3points]

I think the counter mentality (cautious mentality today) is a little too defensive to play the football you are looking for. It will be hard to play short and nice passing football when the players won't really want to take risks. Starting the game with wasting time will also affect your ability to get into a rhythm. So I'd switch to Balanced, and remove time wasting and see how it works

[Hailie]

6 minutes ago, The3points said:

I think the counter mentality (cautious mentality today) is a little too defensive to play the football you are looking for. It will be hard to play short and nice passing football when the players won't really want to take risks. Starting the game with wasting time will also affect your ability to get into a rhythm. So I'd switch to Balanced, and remove time wasting and see how it works

Thank you very much for the response again.

I thought defensive mentality in game doesn't necessarily mean "defensive".

then I have few question:

1) isn't high mentality = high risk? meaning, higher risk = more direct passing/pass into space?

2) in terms of rules & duties, did I got it right?

3) Do I only need to change the way I perecieve mentality?

I feel a bit confused.

[CARRERA]

4 minutes ago, Hailie said:

I don't understand the question, would you mind to rephrase it? what do you mean?

I was asking, because there might be a differance between how you like to play and which is properbly "the best" way to play in terms of what style the match engine favours. Thats why I asked whether you have a prefered style or if you are just looking for results.
Lets start with your Formation:

- There is only one player who moves into channels, the DLF. in FM17 you properbly don't have the opportunity to assign more roles who do that in a 4-1-4-1. Moving up your Wide players to AM Strata and assigning one as an IF is properbly your best bet, if you want more players moving into channels.
- There is noone who creates depth on the right wing which cuts the opportunity to create space on the right wing. If you are looking for more combination play, properbly make the FB and Attack Duty. To remain defensively solid, I would switch CMs and either make the DM a Half back, to provide cover for both fullbacks moving forward or make the left fullback an FB(s) and the Wide Midfielder a Winger to provide width. If you are just fine with another direct partnership, just make the right Winger and attack Duty

If you follow those guidelines, you will have sufficient depth and width in all areas of the pitch.

 

On 10/11/2022 at 21:53, Hailie said:

Looking at your Instructions, you should consider a few things:
- What are you looking for as the big picture of you tactical approach. Is your main focus to score and therefore allow your players to take more risks, or is your main focus to not concede and tehrefore ask your players to be more cautious in their actions? Of course you can also take a balanced approach between those two. And yes, I pretty much simplified it.
- How do you want to defend? Do you rather want to sit deep and soak up pressure, or do you want to apply pressure and step up?
- How do you want to attack / transition? Are you looking for quick transitions and vertical / diagonal passes behind the oppositions defensive line, or are you looking for a rather patient approach that builds up from the back? (you properbly answered that already)

If you can answer those, I can help you to balance out your set up.

[The3points]

43 minutes ago, Hailie said:

Thank you very much for the response again.

I thought defensive mentality in game doesn't necessarily mean "defensive".

then I have few question:

1) isn't high mentality = high risk? meaning, higher risk = more direct passing/pass into space?

2) in terms of rules & duties, did I got it right?

3) Do I only need to change the way I perecieve mentality?

I feel a bit confused.

Defensive mentality means very low risk, which makes it hard to keep the ball is the players don't keep the ball under pressure and hoof it. 

1) High mentality is high risk but not necessarily more direct passing unless you go to Attacking and Very Attacking. With Positive (I believe Control on FM17) you can keep the ball well and even with Attacking and Much Shorter passing can keep the ball.

2) I think the role changes you made are positive. Moving the players up to the AM strata means more penetration and the IF will look to make runs in behind

3) Yeah you are right, but the mentality affects more than just directness. A lower mentality means the tempo is slower, your width is narrower, and most importantly the players will take less risk in positioning, staying deeper and not getting forward enough.

A CM-S on Counter (or Cautious) has a cautious mentality and will sit deeper. Same with a WB-S. CM-A will be positive. Nobody is really going for it as much as they should be because of a lower mentality.

[Hailie]

Quote

There is only one player who moves into channels, the DLF

The DF and DLF move into channel isn't 'hardcoded' but can be ticked.

Are you suggesting that when playing solo striker it's better for him to move into channels so he won't get isolated?

 

Quote

- What are you looking for as the big picture of you tactical approach. Is your main focus to score and therefore allow your players to take more risks, or is your main focus to not concede and tehrefore ask your players to be more cautious in their actions? Of course you can also take a balanced approach between those two. And yes, I pretty much simplified it.
- How do you want to defend? Do you rather want to sit deep and soak up pressure, or do you want to apply pressure and step up?
- How do you want to attack / transition? Are you looking for quick transitions and vertical / diagonal passes behind the oppositions defensive line, or are you looking for a rather patient approach that builds up from the back? (you properbly answered that already)

 

- when I chose the defensive mentality, my main focus was to have 11 man behind the ball in order to have solid defense and using the ball wisely while it's in our control = cautiously.

I also do prefer that players with higher decision making, vision, anticipation, passing etc... are gonna be the creative minds, I don't want everyone to play risky passes because I do have players with vision - 11.

- I did want to sit deep but also not to invite the opposition too close to my goal, this is why I thought choosing slight higher line might help with that.

- I do prefer to press high but I'm not sure if my team is capable.

Quote

- How do you want to attack / transition?

- How do you want to defend? Do you rather want to sit deep and soak up pressure, or do you want to apply pressure and step up?

- I think I've seen my players many times being isolated in transition, but reading your entire reply made me realize maybe I didn't choose the right roles & duties combinations so I don't know if the isolation problem might still be a thing.

while typing about transition, I was reading @The3pointscomment:

"A CM-S on Counter (or Cautious) has a cautious mentality and will sit deeper. Same with a WB-S. CM-A will be positive. Nobody is really going for it as much as they should be because of a lower mentality."

and now it all make sense why they were getting isolated.

Regarding attack: it also depends against who I'm playing against, right?

for instance, I won't play against Swansea the same way as I play against city.

Swansea like to sit dip and camp so patient approach might be more suited, right?

while against city, they might press from the beginning, so more direct to space is a better choice against city, right?

I guess those are 2 different approaches needs to be played?

 

- in regard to defend:

Again, this quite depends who the opponent is, right?

if I press a team that sits back, it won't make me vulnerable ?

 

I do like pressing play style of football (win fast and building the attack) but I reckon, even if I have a passion to re-create real life tactics I

assume it might not be as practical or might be a limitation to what can be achieved on a PC game.

Since I'm learning the game, I do prefer having results 1st rather than being too adventurous in terms or replicating certain tactic untill I really understand the game and how to manage properly.

 

 

Quote

- There is only one player who moves into channels, the DLF. in FM17 you properbly don't have the opportunity to assign more roles who do that in a 4-1-4-1. Moving up your Wide players to AM Strata and assigning one as an IF is properbly your best bet, if you want more players moving into channels.
- There is noone who creates depth on the right wing which cuts the opportunity to create space on the right wing. If you are looking for more combination play, properbly make the FB and Attack Duty. To remain defensively solid, I would switch CMs and either make the DM a Half back, to provide cover for both fullbacks moving forward or make the left fullback an FB(s) and the Wide Midfielder a Winger to provide width. If you are just fine with another direct partnership, just make the right Winger and attack Duty

You mean like this?

 

 

For both DFs and DLFs roles, move into channel (PI) isn't assigned but can be assigned to both.

by using HB, does it mean that the HB drops deep between the CD's the center backs defend wide areas?

1) Isn't the IF-at and CM-at are going to interfere each other space?

isn't the left side going to be exposed (even If I switch it to full back due to 2 attacking duties on the same flank?)

 

29 minutes ago, The3points said:

Defensive mentality means very low risk, which makes it hard to keep the ball is the players don't keep the ball under pressure and hoof it. 

1) High mentality is high risk but not necessarily more direct passing unless you go to Attacking and Very Attacking. With Positive (I believe Control on FM17) you can keep the ball well and even with Attacking and Much Shorter passing can keep the ball.

2) I think the role changes you made are positive. Moving the players up to the AM strata means more penetration and the IF will look to make runs in behind

3) Yeah you are right, but the mentality affects more than just directness. A lower mentality means the tempo is slower, your width is narrower, and most importantly the players will take less risk in positioning, staying deeper and not getting forward enough.

A CM-S on Counter (or Cautious) has a cautious mentality and will sit deeper. Same with a WB-S. CM-A will be positive. Nobody is really going for it as much as they should be because of a lower mentality.

1) so in which occasion lower mentalities can be used?

Question in regard to duties: how do I know if I'm not using too much or less attacking duties?

I need 1 attack duty on each side and 1 in the middle (while playing 3 in the middle), in order to gain penetration & movement?

 

Apologies if there are any grammar mistakes or if I misunderstood your explanation, English isn't my 1st language.

 

[CARRERA]

1 hour ago, Hailie said:

The DF and DLF move into channel isn't 'hardcoded' but can be ticked.

Are you suggesting that when playing solo striker it's better for him to move into channels so he won't get isolated?

Oh, I in FM23 Move into Channels is Hardcoded, didn't knew they added it at some point 
The idea is, that you usually want players to occupy space in all 5 channels (left wing - left channel - central area - right channel - right wing) to overload certain areas and have a good spacing to make it hard for the other team to defend. But (and you have that due to your CM(a)) you also need someone to create depth centrally. So if thats not the case, its not a good idea to have your striker leave central areas.

1 hour ago, Hailie said:

You mean like this?

 

 

For both DFs and DLFs roles, move into channel (PI) isn't assigned but can be assigned to both.

by using HB, does it mean that the HB drops deep between the CD's the center backs defend wide areas?

1) Isn't the IF-at and CM-at are going to interfere each other space?

isn't the left side going to be exposed (even If I switch it to full back due to 2 attacking duties on the same flank?)

I dont think they will get in each others way. However, in case they do just move around some duties. What you basicly want to have on each flank is one player providing width (stays wide, runs wide with ball) and another or the same to create depth by making runs (Move further forward). 
Yes the left flank is taking risks, but its important to bring players into the attacking third if you are looking for nice combinations. If you want to keeper players back a more direct approach is more suited to overcome the opposition.
Yes, the HB drops in possession between both CD and occupying the DM spot if the other team has the ball. You might want to take a look at the CM support role during build up, whether hes capable if connecting your defensive line and your attacking players. If you feel like its not working perfect, you could try a DLP(s).
 

1 hour ago, Hailie said:

- when I chose the defensive mentality, my main focus was to have 11 man behind the ball in order to have solid defense and using the ball wisely while it's in our control = cautiously.

I also do prefer that players with higher decision making, vision, anticipation, passing etc... are gonna be the creative minds, I don't want everyone to play risky passes because I do have players with vision - 11.

- I did want to sit deep but also not to invite the opposition too close to my goal, this is why I thought choosing slight higher line might help with that.

- I do prefer to press high but I'm not sure if my team is capable.

So yes, mentality is somewhat about risk, but it doesnt make any player play better or worse. Because its the player who is bad or good. Mentality is straight about that: mentality, how you approach your game. The Roles you choose and the player itself will have the biggest impact on how he plays. Its way too specifically to think about passing when choosing a mentality. Thats why i kept my explanation that simple. 

 

1 hour ago, Hailie said:

- I think I've seen my players many times being isolated in transition, but reading your entire reply made me realize maybe I didn't choose the right roles & duties combinations so I don't know if the isolation problem might still be a thing.

I dont want to dive too deep into team shape as its not a thing anymore since FM20?! What it basicly does is how mentality is spread between players depending on their duty and position. Think about mentality of a scale from 1-20 under the hood. (I've just made up the numbers, its just to explain) On a very structured team shape a defender is properbly on a 5 for his individual mentality scale. A striker might be on like 15. If you now move the team shape to very fluid, both defenders and attackers might be on a 10 mentality. So they are getting closer together in their movement. So if you are happy with your roles and duties, adjust the team shape to match your needs. A short passing game, as well as pressing for example to benefit from your team being close together, while a direct aproach benefits more depth. But as always, there is no right or wrong. You need to find the specific setting that suits your team. 

In addition to that team shape does also influence your teams creative freedom, where more structured = less CF and more fluid = more CF.

1 hour ago, Hailie said:

- in regard to defend:

Again, this quite depends who the opponent is, right?

if I press a team that sits back, it won't make me vulnerable ?

 

I do like pressing play style of football (win fast and building the attack) but I reckon, even if I have a passion to re-create real life tactics I

assume it might not be as practical or might be a limitation to what can be achieved on a PC game.

Since I'm learning the game, I do prefer having results 1st rather than being too adventurous in terms or replicating certain tactic untill I really understand the game and how to manage properly.

Its can be both, situational and a philosophy. You have to take in mind, that tactical familiarity is an important factor for your team. So to switch between the extremes every match is properbly not the best idea and your results might suffer. But of course, there are always circumstances where you may need to make adjustments. 
Ill give you two exaples, so if a team is sitting back and tries to just keep the ball you might want to take more risks and step up to gain possession. Because they are very happy with keeping the ball just for the sake of it, while you might need or want to win the match. On the other hand you might be playing goliath and dont want to leave your doors wide open. But you should set some sort of basic philosophy with what you start out the match and where your players can become familiar with.


So what I could see you try and move on from there:
- pick balanced mentality -> a good starting point if you are undicided yet
- flexible team shape -> your players will be slightly more compact, as you were talking about players being disconnected
- shorter passing -> you wanted to progress more slowly
- get stuck in -> on a balanced mentality with no other defensive instructions changed, your team will defend in a mid-block (around the center line). You properbly really want to fight for the ball before they aproach the final third. 

Just some basic adjustments you can make during match. There are more, but those are  properbly the most important ones.
Not enough chances -> increase tempo
High amount of chances, but low quality -> work ball into box
 very defensive opposition -> up mentality or assign one additionally attack duty (make sure there is enough support around). Also up your defensive settings by 1 (defensive line, pressing, offside trap)
if your opposition can play easy through your lines -> lower pressing intensity by 1
if you concede balls over the top -> drop defensive line by 1
if you want to close a game -> assign an additional defend duty (make sure there is enough support around)
if you want to rest your players -> lower tempo

you can also combine those of course.

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by CARRERA