Why FM,why?

[FMWolf]

So I've started a recent save with Valencia, a little bit inspired by the work Benitez had there and mostly to try and recreate his tactics: possession based game; two supporting midfielder who would both create and destroy; one player behind the forward; two good wide player; all in all a pretty standard 4-3-2-1. I read a bit from here http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/01/29/teams-of-the-decade-11-valencia-2001-04/ and went with this tactic:

As far as players instructions goes i only have:

GR - distribute to defenders

Right Winger - cross from byline

Complete forward: roam from position, move into channels, pass it shorter

I thought of something different in the begining: having the two midfielders set up just front the defenders as i think that would be more like benitez did, but i couldn't make it work as my midfielders were too far apart from the playmaker (some suggestions on how to make this work without using direct passing would be helpful). I'm not sure about the role of the playmaker either. Well obviously i want him to be a playmaker but not sure what would fit better in the benitez system as he used aimar in valencia and gerrard in liverpool (two very different players). Since i'm with valencia tho, i thought he had to be either a trequarista or an enganche, but don't know

I started off by putting the fluidity on rigid. It did well against weaker teams but fluid seemed better against stronger teams (at the friendlies). We managed 5 out of 7 seven wins, scored 22 goals, concede 4 (of course we played agains very weak teams, mainly the under's 19 and another random team). But we were playing good, wining the possession batle every game and I thought it could only be better when the tactics became more fluid... But nope. I've only made 2 officials games (yeah, there weren't much) but they went to be terrible. Couldn't win the possession, couldn't create chances, players not moving (they were really static) and opposition just dominating me, playing tiki taka style like they were just having breakfast. This lead to a 3-3 draw at home agains malaga and a 2-0 loss away against espanyol. Not good, not good at all. And i just couldn't see what was happening (i saw the matches in full ). One thing I noticed was that their midfield was constatly moving and my players were constatly being stupid: they we're just running after them like they had honey or something, and i don't even have hassle oponents or get stuck in or tight marking. Another thing i noticed is that the pass completion of one of my centers back was around 60-70 (and it's just one of them, it's like they decide which one is going to be at that match) which is awfull when you're trying to play a possession based game.

All the help would be appreciated (i've read all the guides more than one time, but i guess i still don't the understand the game) and if you are struglinh too, well, join the club and maybe a solution will come up

[bababooey]

Well I think your vision for how you want the team to play is good, as it fits Valenica. However I'm not sure a control strategy will necessarily work in all instances because you'll have games against Barca, Real, Atletico, Athletic, Villareal, Sociedad, etc. Those teams are all better than Valenica on paper (at least in real life and FM's media prediction has them 4th but I don't think that's accurate..)

The biggest thing that jumps out to me is that you've got a trequartista in your AMC slot, plus the CF in front of him. The CF-A is going to do a fair bit of roaming, as well the Trequartista so, who is the creator and who is the scorer? What kind of partnership are you building there?

The reason you probably saw players running all about was because you've got a control mentality, so your players will look to close down higher up, and in general their mentalities are higher. So yeah, you don't have hassle opponents on or anything, but you do have a mentality setting that will cause players to more aggressively go after the ball.

60-70 percent passing from a center back isn't terrible but it's definitely not good. What are their attributes like? Are they being put under pressure to pass? Are they hoofing it forward? Is anyone open to pass the ball to?

Perhaps you'd want to change one of your fullbacks to attack, and one of your wide midfielders to support, to give the team a little bit more interplay between the lines, too.

[FMWolf]

Thanks for the reply, here are my assumptions:

- Well, i too think that playing control mentality against real madrid and barcelona won't make any sense, but against teams like athletic, villareal, sociedad, at least at home, i really think valencia has the upper hand (at least in the game, in real life they are nothing spectacular). But control seems to be causing the trouble from what i understand

- Like i said, i don't really know how to set the amc. I want him to put trough balls to players apearing on the back of the defense, make one-two with the forward and also to appear on the box to make a finish so i though a trequarista was more suitable. With the complete forward wanted him to be a little deep when the team doesn't have the ball and then run to the open space on the attack or combine with the AMC to create the space. Don't know if they are the best roles, but the striker scored 7 in 7 the pre-season (which i tend to think that it wasn't a good preview of what it is to come xD) and has scored 1 in those two games (and we played pretty badly)

- The control mentality. I've to admit that i didn't know that control would make that. I've always more like a less agressive way of the attacking mentality. My thought was rather simple i have to admit: possession = control. But i'll give a try on a different one. Do you think standard is the best choice?

-The 60-70 percentage i really can't explain. I have the deeplaying playmaker and midfielder set do defend and they are close to my centerbacks when we star the build up. The fullbacks are there too. I really don't know. And the thing that is odd to be is that is only one of them in different pairs. Like in one game is the center back to the right, the other is the center back to the left :s

- Have to admit i thought i had one of them set to attack, thanks for notice

Reviewing the goals conceded (apart from the set pieces) i noticed that most are crosses from the line or long balls played to the back of my defense. Do you think this can be associated with the control mentality? If i set up drop deeper wouldn't that mean the oppositon would have for more time on the ball? And any suggestions about the team instructions? And what do you think about droping the midfielder to the defensive midfielders position? Sorry about the overload of questions, but i'm really trying to figure this out

[sriracha]

Another thing i noticed is that the pass completion of one of my centers back was around 60-70 (and it's just one of them, it's like they decide which one is going to be at that match) which is awfull when you're trying to play a possession based game.

There's a high chance that's not actually the case - the game is rather rubbish at presenting stats. What I found (and you can check that on the analysis tab) is that for example when a defender clears a cross with header (or any other ourely defensive get-rif-of-the-ball action) the game still counts it as a pass. That's why center backs passing rates are typically way lower than for everybody else.

[bababooey]

Have you read the pairs/combinations guide by llama3? That should give you a good idea of how to set up your AMC. Or if you're still confused after reading it, I can help you out. I've always done well with an AMC/lone striker combo when I've used it.

Well possession can be had with basically any mentality but you have to set up your team to get it. It's not as simple as changing strategy, as I've learned the hard way..

Standard is probably a good strategy for your team to use in short-odds matches, and perhaps you can go control against the bottom teams (media predicted bottom)

Just note that with standard your players will not close down as much as you may want, thus you wont find it that easy to win the ball back. You'll be defending deeper in your own side, too.

Well the crosses that get result in goals against you are an interesting issue because what's the source of the problem? Is it that the crossers aren't being properly closed down, or is it that your defensive line is too high and can't catch up to the AI strikers? You have to answer that question first. Without seeing your team I'm guessing it's a little of both..

You're right that control is a less aggressive version of attacking, though.

[FMWolf]

sriracha: Never had though of that. That's a good theory and i'm definitely be more aware of that now

bababooey : I've read the guide yes but i was still a bit confused as i wanted to replicate the role of aimar in benitez's valencia and i'm not truly sure what that is on the game. Any help is apreciated so please share your sucess xD About the mentality i'm now going to start off with standard and see to where that leads me, so that i know exactly what i want and what i'm doing. The crosses are really bugging me because my formation is pretty good at covering the flanks (well at least on paper: two fullbacks, one winger deeper than the usual and one wide midfielder should do the job) but it just seems the opposition winger will pass by his marker and make and excelent cross to the only opposition man on the box... And this is a little frustating. My defensive line doesn't seem to be that high on the pitch to be honest, but the AMC - Striker combination of the AI just destroys me normally (they do what i would like to do xD). I just can't stop my centers back to chase the player with the ball. I've read some threads and made it a little better but it's still happening

[bababooey]

FMWolf

I would avoid trying to figure out how Aimar played, and set up your AMC / Striker in a proper fashion. Make sure the players fit their roles, and go from there. A good combination for your possession game could be AP-A + CF-S

Ultimately the strategy of the team depends on: your team's ability, and the way you want them to play.. Controlling/attacking = slower buildups from the back but quicker more direct play in the front. counter/defensive = quicker buildups from the back, and less direct play in the front. Which of course makes sense as a defensive-minded team would look to clear the lines, and an attacking minded team, like say Arsenal, would look to build up slowly and control the game rather than hoof it long. You need to decide how you want to play really.

About the crosses: you have to see what your players are doing. Are they being skinned because they're not fast enough? Are they poor tacklers? Are they sliding into tackles and getting beat? Are they standing off too much? etc. You need to ask yourself those questions, for sure.

[FMWolf]

One a side note, i've just managed a draw with barcelona playing with ten men since 7min in, yes, 7min in (my center back just punched the opposition striker out of nowhere). And i conceded a penalty at the 8 min... that they gently missed. So lucky xD

I've reached two conclusions about the amc + striker combination: one is the one you said. That would bring the AP - A a little close to the midfield which is good and the striker would be nearer him as well. My only concern is that the AP doesn't enter the box that much. The other one is using a trequarista with an advanced forward to get make them both be a treat of goal. I'll see how it goes and give some feedback

The mentality i want is surely controling or attacking, but i'll try to make it work using standard for now and see how the game goes on

For the crosses, playing against barcelona ended up with my fullbacks being my best players (one of them was men of the match) and this is very odd for me xD (played them as limited defenders) They are not bad, they are pretty good if you ask me (nothing spectacular) but the problem is they get beaten in the drible too much, it's like they don't offer much of a resistance (not against barcelona tho and that's something i can't explain). Playing as limited defenders all games would obviously not help the movement of the team at all so i don't see that as a solution,but to be honest, i don't see much of a solution

[bababooey]

Well you can use multiple mentalities, and change them in game too. Some people choose 2 mentalities and strictly stick to them, some switch mentalities all the time during games to suit whatever situation is at hand.

In your case you might want to go standard to start short-odd matches, and then work it out from there. If the other team is sitting back against you, perhaps bump it up. If the other team is overwhelming you, knock it down. It may be helpful to train 3 tactics that use 3 different mentalities (this will take longer to gain familiarity though!)

Regarding your fullbacks, what are their attributes? If their tackling is say, 13 or above you should be fine. Same with marking. Otherwise you'll find that they'll struggle to make tackles and this means you'll need to compensate with either support from your midfielders, or by changing the fullbacks instructions so they're less aggressive and only make the safest tackle possible. This also means you'll struggle to win the ball back as much as you may like.

[FMWolf]

Yeah the mentalities is something i'm working on. Managing some good results, but it isn't just quite as i want it to be.

The fullbacks have good attributes and are fast, but i guess that even the best fullbacks are beaten sometimes so i have to just deal with it i think.

My AMC-Striker partnership is still something i must improve. Been trying different combinations and sometimes it works like i want but other's it's just terrible

[FMWolf]

Things just got worse xD The tactic wasn't clearly working, not creating enough chances and not even winning the possession battle... And that was my purpose with this save xD So, as i really like Valencia's squad i decided to stay with them and change things. Having the likes of Caneles, Piatti, Parejo and Salvio (got him on loan) i decided to go for a more "trough the middle" way of playing and so i come up with this:

Players instructions:

- Center backs: play it shorter

- Center midfielders - fewer risky passes

- AMCL - roam from position (these instructions depend on the player i have here (this one's are for Canales) tho, let's say if piatti/guardado were to play here i would have them run wide with the ball and play Parejo p.e as the AMCR)

- AMCR - roam from position, run wide with the ball (same with the AMCL instructions, they depend on the players (this one's are for Salvio). My objective is to have one of the AMCR/L being more wide and the other playing more trough balls)

- ST - move into channels

The objective here was to make my front players roam a lot giving the AMC (piatti) the space to driblle down the middle and appearing in the box to finish. This didn't quite happen tho. The team played very well i must say, but Piatti didn't have that much on an impact. My other concern is Salvio. I gave him the instruction to run wide with the ball in the hope he would often drift to the wing to stretch the opposition but he stayed rather central :s

So the game we played was this one:

As you can see, possession battle won, more shots on goal and their goal was a very stupid mistake from my keeper at 10min in. But the team was playing so well that the only change i made was this:

Pushing Salvio to the winger position to make him do what i want him to do: stretch the opposition.

This worked well and we mantained our way of play and scored two goals with 10min to go, but we could easly have resolved the game before that.

My doubt at the moment is where to set up Salvio: as a AMCR or as a Winger on support?

Another thing that intrigates me is how far my fullbacks were on the pitch:

This could have lead to some good chances from the opposition down the wings, but on the other hand they were pretty solid on the back (altought the wingers seem to continue to just pass trough them with so much ease sometimes)

Edited:

just something i forgot to mention: Canales position. He was almost ahead of my striker and i want him to be a little deeper than that. Maybe changing him do an advanced playmaker? Wouldn't this make my team more dependent of him tho?

[bababooey]

Right now I would try to keep it as simple as possible, as you're still figuring things out. So I wouldn't use the wide player in the narrow 4231. I would keep it as you had it before, but that's just my opinion.

One key thing is that you're using fullbacks, despite not having any wingers/wide midfielders. Set them to wingbacks and give your team the width it will need.

You could try having both wingbacks on attack, or maybe use one wingback on attack and set 2 of your AMCLR's on attack. Keep the striker on support, and the 2 CM's look fine to me. This system you're playing, very fluid, is going to look quite pleasing on the eyes I would think (my Marseille save had a similar set up, very fluid, but a wide 4-2-3-1).

[FMWolf]

I'm still trying to achieve the movement i want with salvio. Puting him as winger helps a bit but he sometimes his just too far away from the rest of the team

I've thought of that with the fullbacks, but i'm afraid that will make us very easy to counter on the wings. And as you can see from the average positions, they are pretty far on the pitch already.

I'm using very fluid so that the AMC's don't be too easy mark. It's vital to have them moving around and very fluid is achieving that at the moment. Still not sure with the role i want to give to the more supportive AMC, but i'm trying to make some changes and see how the matches go. My striker i truly think he sould be on the support too, but at the moment he isn't doing much honestly :s Failed to score and to assist, but the system is still new so we'll see how it goes

[bababooey]

I think the wingbacks appear far on the pitch because the rest of your squad (minus the CD's) are all pushed up pretty high!

You won't have too many issues defending with both wingbacks on attack, just make sure your CM's are able to give them some cover (ie, dont use BWM, instead use a sitting player)

I'm not sure that fluidity = more movement. you need to re-read wwfan's 12 step guide on this because he explains it better than I ever could.

Perhaps with Salvio you can edit his specific player instructions to get him to move the way you want? You might want him to start narrow (as an AMC) and run wide the ball perhaps?

[FMWolf]

And when things seems to be going right... 4-3 loss ate home against almeria. Pretty unlucky with the goals conceded as 2 were from set pieces and one was a pass of my defender to my keeper when the opposition striker was waiting for that pass. When the game goes like that, i really have difficulty on understanding what went wrong with the way played. I'll go and make some changes again to see what we can improve, but it's pretty hard to get fluidity with the tactic having to be constantly changing things. Maybe i should i just restart the save and go for a different aproach on the begining of the season, i don't know. I'm having a big trouble to get into this game as my results have been so poor

[bababooey]

Best advice I can give is to view the match in full, and try to see what your players are doing when those things happen. How is the AI passing? Are they being pressured? Are your players being beaten legitimately or are they just not closing down? etc.

You have to try to think critically about it. There is a cause for everything.

[FMWolf]

I watch the matches in full already. I'm not the best at reading what's happening on the field from the ME tho, but it's something that i'm trying to improve this year. But that game was really impossible for me to understand what to do. 8min in they score from a corner than shortly after from a long throw and sudently i'm loosing 2-0 at home and feeling a bit lost. Been reading Cleon thread "Creating A Tactic - Design, Create and Maintain" over and over to try to understand better what you can and you can't do to change the course of the game. So this is save with Valencia will be mainly to that: learn the game.

Oh and thanks a lot for the advices, really gave me some better notions about the game and really made me think about my team way much better

[BvB fan]

Try watching the matches in 2d. It will help you much more, because in this view you can see what is happening in the entire pitch.

[FMWolf]

And i got sacked... again. I'll have another go tho. I really want to understand what's happening and why results aren't coming

[bababooey]

FMWolf

perhaps it would be helpful to start a new thread where you ask for help learning to watch matches and pick apart what is happening? I'm not really able to help you there, as it's something I don't have much to say about yet. What I can recommend right off the bat though, is to start reading lots of tactical articles, like ones that break down games. Here's a good start: http://outsideoftheboot.com/ Also try ZonalMarking.

But in general I would say maybe start a new thread and try to see what others are doing