Is playing a defensive / counter attacking style viable as a top club?

[Karnage94]

Hi

I've always had a soft spot for teams that defend well and counter with rapid fury and efficiency. I've never been a fan of the whole pass the opposition to death approach, even though I do use it from time to time. But my problem is that I've never got a proper counter attacking style working the way that I see fit. The team either ends up holding the ball a bit too much to counter or the defence is overly pressured.

The team that I have set up is more geared to possession based play but in recent games I've really struggled to find space as teams are defending very deep against me and as soon as I try and push forward to break them down, they burst forward and counter. I think in a couple of matches this season I scored with the only shot I had on target which for my team which has won the last two league titles really isn't acceptable. So how can I adapt what I have below to make it more counter attacking friendly?

Below is my team instructions. Only changes from the default from this is the front 4 all roam and the left winger has Normal for wide play

If you need any more information, I'll do my best to provide

[furiousuk]

Top teams certainly can play counter attack, to name a few from the top of my head: Germany 2 years ago nearly made it work all the way, Man Utd a few years ago were a superb side on the counter, Inter Milan won by playing more defensive/counter even Arsenal before Wenger were primarily a defensive team, Chelsea from this year made defence/counter their forte more than anything else. But... the thing that made these teams work was that whilst their primary playstyle was defensive they could also match it up against teams who were similarly defensive or even negative (philosophically there is a massive difference between defensive and negative).

Some immediate observations that stand out for me:

* Who is playing the killer long ball that turns defence into attack in an instant? I can't comment on the players but an Anchor and a DM are limited in their distribution to play the percentages rather than ping devastating long balls to unleash quick counter-attacking forwards.

* Neither winger is tactically inclined to be a direct goal threat - neither is the AMC and whilst the poacher obviously is he will probably be marked from a direct counter attacking pass from the back (i.e. he would require a secondary - or more- pass to become a threat).

SFraser's post Meet The System provides an excellent analysis of how Germany used this formation to counter and I think it hinged around the interplay between creative front-man and devastating AMC (admittedly the Ozil of nowadays has rounded his game considerably since then and this, in part, has allowed Germany's style to evolve). In your example you have (tactically) set up the AMC as an attack-minded creative guy with the finisher in front. This is more suited to a more cautious approach (rather than direct) that emphasises the abilities of the AMC as a creator and the FC as a finisher. Unless your AMC (or possibly AMR as secondary creator) receives the ball your counter attack is likely to falter.

If I was going to primarily play counter using this formation I think I'd allow more interplay between AMC/FC (think of them as 2 up top might help) with the FC being allowed to drop deeper to receive a counter and play in others moving past him so this would be the AMC and at least 1 winger playing as finishers. The other winger could then stay wide as a winger, that would be fine and create some variation in your counter play (as well as helping your other play).

So, top teams can definitely play counter but doing so against very negative opponents is extremely difficult, therefore you also need another route to goal to break up that negativity. Once you've nicked the goal then the game is as good as yours because if they come after you then they play right into your primary threat. But you need to work on a way to get that goal in the first place to back up your main threat as a counter-attacking side.

[Karnage94]

Thanks for the input furiousuk

My problem at DM is that both my first choice players there are injured and I'm playing young players there who aren't so capable of a long ball. The Anchor Man is usually a DLP - Defend but that's only when my first choice for that role is playing (he has 19 for passing and 14 creativity but only 12 for technique and 8 for flair). I probably should have shown my first choice players there and the best roles for them. At DM - Support I usually have Lorenzo Crisetig who is a fabulous all round midfielder, capable of a creative pass when necessary.

For my wingers I have a striker that I'm working on training to be a devastating inside forward and has done ok so far but definitely needs time but I am short on goals from midfield.

My striker Paloschi isn't a great choice for a creative forward and my back ups aren't a lot better, I've always had a poacher do well in this save and now that teams are playing defensively there is no space in behind for him to really exploit. That's largely the reason why I want to try and go for a counter attacking style. Is it worth my time using Paloschi as something like a Deep Lying Forward and changing my AM to Attacking Midfielder - Attack (Thiago is solid enough at finishing), just to see if that would work for my normal tactic?

EDIT:- Just tried the change of roles for my AM and Striker. First chance of the game (20 minutes in admittedly but the build up play has been ok) Paloschi drops deep, turns and by the time he has set himself, Thiago is already 5 yards past him, a simple ball through, Thiago uses his superb dribbling to take the last man on and slots home. I love it when a plan comes together

[furiousuk]

Sorry to leave you hanging dude, things will get a little less cluttered next week. I've at least put a bit of thought into my reply

I was going to say that if Paloschi is an out-and-out poacher then playing him in another style is potentially problematic for you but then read your last paragraph so I will rephrase - DO WHATEVER YOU LIKE BECAUSE ITS CLEARLY WORKING!!!

It might be that Paloschi can play DLF and that with others moving around him he does a decent job. It might not be his best role but its what is best for the team at that time, after all, you don't plan on doing it all the time anyway. He can drop deep for those 20 minutes, if you nick a goal then you can switch him back to poacher as the other team will have to come after you now, if you don't nick a goal then try it for longer or try something else. Its all a balancing act between what you want, what your player want and what your players can deliver.

It's quite a nice formation if you like combinations of roles, particularly between the AM and FC and gives a different dynamic to the up top partnership you see with a 442.

You can instruct the AM to drop deeper to become an advanced midfielder or you can create instructions for AM and FC that see them work more as a team. It's this flexibility which is part of why it's such a dominant formation. If you have a great allrounder like Rooney who can play up top, in the hole or as secondary striker then you can have that flexibility with the same personnel just by tweaking the roles and it can have far-reaching effects. You have to have an appreciation of space but so long as you think about it the 4231 can be capable of a great many styles, from counter to control - the same as any popular formation.

[Karnage94]

Don't worry about it Thanks for your advice.

Just when you mention Rooney there, in my Man United save I have him playing as an AM with Hernandez ahead as a Poacher and it is quite incredible how well that works. I had plenty of creativity from the flanks with Nani and Gotze supplying the pair and the goals just didn't stop. But I haven't played that save in a while.

I've played a couple of games since my last post and ultimately that one goal that I said at the end was as good as it got. It felt like it was the one time where it clicked into place which gave me some hope but from then, very little has happened. Paloschi is definitely a Poacher and I normally wouldn't think of using him in another role. My players do seem to have more room to operate in but because the opposition play so deep for the most part, there needs to be some individual brilliance to nip past a couple of players to really make something happen. I may be tempted to try and bring in a more creative striker who can take the ball into feet and then be useful with it, rather than running into brick walls all the time. Maybe its the fact that I'm only really attacking with 4 players with the full backs and more advanced DM only really part of the transition stage.

As you said it is a balancing act. As of now, despite winning all my matches in the league, I've only scored 13 from 8, conceding just 3. I know what I want from my players (in both set ups) and I know what my players are capable of, but applying it properly is a little bit tricky. I have a game against bottom of the league Zaragoza at home and if that goes badly then I'll have to really look and see what is the best way to get things going the way that I want. Just when I thought it was going to get easier in this save, it gets a bit harder.

[Seule]

I recently played a tottenham season, sent adebayor home, sold modric for 25mill and said, screw it, I'm buying giuseppe rossi. Put him in a 4-2-3-1 at the peak as a trequartista with bale - Van der Vaart - Lennon as aml/amc/amr behind him, and two holding mids from sandro/huddlestone/parker behind them. On the counter it was absolutely brutally effective, the ability of the trequartista to release bale/lennon/vdv on the counter was amazing. The killer ball wasn't a 25 yarder that set someone free, it was the 10 yard angled ball in behind the defence at half way that unlocked everything, and if I remember correctly, the spread of goals between the front four was fairly well spread.

The other thing I'll say is i like playing with a high d-line, but that is a personal preference, i tends to close the vertical space a bit making it quicker to get the ball from back line to forward line, but at the same time, it closes space, and space is what you want. I personally try and compensate by creating the space horizontally, but that's a personal preference.

Anyway, random thoughts, counter can be very effective at the top end, you just need to be able to score if the other team is sitting back as well.