New club blues

[WhyMe]

The situation

The year is 2020, I have been playing in another league and doing exceedingly well with a 4-3-1-2 tactic but I was getting bored at the club and I needed a new challenge and I was offered the position at Bayern so I took it.  The problem is Bayern have quality wingers and a top draw Raumdauter as their best players and I haven't used such players in this version of FM.  However, I thought lets give it a whirl and see if I can get it to work.  As I am writing this I am suspect you can guess the answer to that question!

The plan

Well I looked at the players and I thought maybe I can make a slightly lopsided 4-2-3-1 that attacks like a 4-4-2 diamond.  So I set about choosing the roles that would create the movement I wanted and low and behold I got it!  Unfortunately, it turns out the movement I thought would be really effective actually isn't, at all, in fact it sucks   It simply doesn't create chances and loses the ball ALOT which is a problem since my board expect me to play possession football.  Now I wasn't too bothered about possession as long as I was getting enough to stop the board getting fed up with me I would have been happy, anything around 52%+ would have been enough as long as I was creating chances and winning.  Unfortunately neither of these things is happening.  So this is how I set up:

GK standard - distribute to fullbacks

LB - Inverted WB - shoot less (lack of options was causing long shots, so probably not necessary if I get the tactic right) - this role moves into midfield to create the left hand midfield player of the diamond

2*CB defend - pass shorter for possession

RB - WB-a - no pi

RDCM - DM-s - get further forward (this was to move him towards the right sided midfield slot of the diamond

DCM - DM-d the holding player also the base of the diamond

ML - W-s - get further forward - on attack this is supposed to represent one of the attacking wingbacks in the diamond, in defense he covers the left wing ahead of his fullback

AMR - Raum-a - the other key part of the system - he is supposed to be one of the main goal threats and of course on attack when he gets more central he is supposed to represent one of the strikers in the diamond

AMC - AP-s - the tip of the diamond in attack but also gets back to help in defense

STR - CF-s - this chap was supposed to be a goal threat but also to move around to create space for the Raum (also tried him in the left STR spot but that didn't work either and also tried as DLF-a)

I started on simply standard flexible with no TIs to see what happened but since it went so badly in terms of chance creation etc I didn't really know what to try.  I did try adding possession instructions like shorter passing and less dribbling but it didn't help so there must be a fundamental flaw with my plan.

What I am hoping for

I am hoping to be able to keep the inverted wing back, winger and Raum if at all possible but I am completely open to all other positional and role changes and also to pushing the winger up to AML and/or giving him an attack duty.  If it is not possible to get such a system working then fair enough I will have to try something else but that is what I was hoping to do.

I look forward to the discussion and advice.

[jorgvandervloed]

Just looking at your setup and not taking anything else into account. 

I'm guessing you want your RD (A) to be an attacking threat, but to translate what the role actually means, he is a ''space investigator''. With the AP (S) next to him there may not be enough space for him to investigate. The RDM will also make runs, but i'm guessing he will come from too deep to actually restrict him space. 

The same goes for your IWB; I'm not entirely sure how this role will play out if you have two DM's? Who will probably be somewhere where he wants to go. 

                              CS (S)

 W (S)                                              RD (A)

                    CM (A)   -   DLP (S)

                              DM (D)

IWB (S)   -   CD (D)   -   CD (D)   -   WB (S)

Complete formation change i know, but just to give you some ideas i guess. To be honest, havent used an IWB before so not sure how they exactly work. 

Winger stays wide, CM (A) will make forward runs, so there should be some space for him to run in there. Same goes for the RD (A), DLP (S) will hold position, and the WB will make runs on the flank. (could ask him to stay wide) 

[WhyMe]

On ‎21‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 14:06, jorgvandervloed said:

Just looking at your setup and not taking anything else into account. 

I'm guessing you want your RD (A) to be an attacking threat, but to translate what the role actually means, he is a ''space investigator''. With the AP (S) next to him there may not be enough space for him to investigate. The RDM will also make runs, but i'm guessing he will come from too deep to actually restrict him space. 

The same goes for your IWB; I'm not entirely sure how this role will play out if you have two DM's? Who will probably be somewhere where he wants to go. 

                              CS (S)

 W (S)                                              RD (A)

                    CM (A)   -   DLP (S)

                              DM (D)

IWB (S)   -   CD (D)   -   CD (D)   -   WB (S)

Complete formation change i know, but just to give you some ideas i guess. To be honest, havent used an IWB before so not sure how they exactly work. 

Winger stays wide, CM (A) will make forward runs, so there should be some space for him to run in there. Same goes for the RD (A), DLP (S) will hold position, and the WB will make runs on the flank. (could ask him to stay wide) 

Thank you for your suggestion, sorry for the slow response.  I have considered such a formation, although I've never been fond of 2 wide players in the AM strata for defensive purposes.  I might give it a go though and experiment with the winger in both the ML and AML slots.  What mentality/shape and team instructions would you suggest playing with that?  Bearing in mind I need at least decent possession to keep my board happy.

[jorgvandervloed]

23 hours ago, WhyMe said:

Thank you for your suggestion, sorry for the slow response.  I have considered such a formation, although I've never been fond of 2 wide players in the AM strata for defensive purposes.  I might give it a go though and experiment with the winger in both the ML and AML slots.  What mentality/shape and team instructions would you suggest playing with that?  Bearing in mind I need at least decent possession to keep my board happy.

In the formation above, only the RD (A) won't track back as much really. Support duties, also depends on player stats of course, will usually track back. But definitely give it a go; don't think there will be a huge difference attacking-wise. You could also consider pulling back the RD then and customize a WM (A). 

It's possible to get decent possession with any mentality and/or shape. It's about the complete mix of roles, duties, mentality, shape and team instructions. Yeah, I could give you something that would probably work, but it's about what you want really. Plus, what would be the fun out of that;)  

[WhyMe]

2 hours ago, jorgvandervloed said:

In the formation above, only the RD (A) won't track back as much really. Support duties, also depends on player stats of course, will usually track back. But definitely give it a go; don't think there will be a huge difference attacking-wise. You could also consider pulling back the RD then and customize a WM (A). 

It's possible to get decent possession with any mentality and/or shape. It's about the complete mix of roles, duties, mentality, shape and team instructions. Yeah, I could give you something that would probably work, but it's about what you want really. Plus, what would be the fun out of that;)  

I tried it last night and unfortunately it was just as bad as my old system.  No good chances created and no goals.  Defense was still fairly solid but offensively it was again totally ineffective.  Back to the drawing board it seems.

[jorgvandervloed]

2 hours ago, WhyMe said:

I tried it last night and unfortunately it was just as bad as my old system.  No good chances created and no goals.  Defense was still fairly solid but offensively it was again totally ineffective.  Back to the drawing board it seems.

What did you try exactly? And for how many games?

[WhyMe]

The roles and duties you suggested on standard flexible for 3 or 4 games on a dummy save (FM touch to avoid familiarity issues).  Only TI was close down more to start with but I also tried it with shorter passing and other possession instructions as that is how the board want me to play.  Created no quality chances from open play and the only goal was a corner.

[WhyMe]

Well the good news is I went back to the drawing board and I was able to produce something that actually works and is based on my original principles! I took your advice about the AMC potentially getting in the way of the Raum so I moved him to the AMCL slot and moved the striker back central.  I also didn't feel I was getting enough support to the forward players from the two DMCs so I moved the central one forward to the MC position and made him a box to box CM, again central so as to be close enough to the Raum to provide him with passes but not so close as to get in his way.  Finally, I gave my winger an attack duty to make sure he was getting close enough to the opposition box as to whip crosses in from around the D rather than deep and very wide.  This gave me a more standard looking asymmetric 4-1-2-2-1 as seen below:

GK standard - distribute to fullbacks

LB - Inverted WB - shoot less (lack of options was causing long shots, so probably not necessary if I get the tactic right) - this role moves into midfield to create the left hand midfield player of the diamond

2*CB defend - pass shorter for possession

RB - WB-a - overlaps the raum to create scoring chances for him which is precisely what I wanted

RDCM - DLP-d, covers for the WB-a and can start attacks from the back.

CM - BBM

ML - W-a -

AMR - Raum-a

AMCL - AP-s draws the ball and thus the opposition to the left side of the pitch (as suggested by Rashidi in another thread) to give the raum space and provides the pass either to the winger or the wing back to put in the ball for the raum, hasn't got a direct assist yet but has got a couple of goals.

STC - CF-s - the problem position as while in the 3 games I have played he has got an assist, he hasn't managed a goal or even had much in the way of good chances.

I also switched to standard fluid to close the gaps between the symmetric positions which seemed to be a key difference after I observed it during the match.

Team instructions wise I kept close down more but added shorter passing and dribble less for the possession my board want.

 

The good news is that I am now getting the sort of football I was after and have created some glorious chances, but I do still get a few more longshots than I would like even after adding some shoot less PIs to the most guilty players which suggests a lack of options sometimes.  My main concern so far is that the AP-s hasn't had a direct assist yet and the striker doesn't seem to be getting good chances.

I am considering trying some different roles for the striker, probably DLF-a, CF-a and AF-a as I feel this will give the AP-s something more to aim at right in front of him.  The downside is it might limit the chances for the Raum so I will have to see how it goes.  The other thing I am considering is to go the whole hog and go very fluid to potentially get the players closer together to give them more passing options.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Quick update:

I tested the alternative striker roles and much to my surprise the AF-a combined best with the rest of the setup and indeed my striker is now scoring at almost a goal a game as is my Raum.  I am scoring an average of over 3 goals a game and my defense isn't too bad either.  It is a bit vulnerable against the better sides, for example I beat Real Madrid 4-3 at home in the group stages of the champions league and then lost 1-0 to them away from home.  Mainly this vulnerability comes down the flanks.  However, this might in part be due to the players I have in the middle of the pitch not being that great defensively, ideally I need a better DLP and BBM from a defensive perspective but still it is generally going very well now.  I do need to learn about my system a bit more as I am not sure what changes I can make to make it more solid defensively when things aren't going so well without compromising the system as a whole.  I have added a few PIs to add some better marking and closing down to the BBM, AP-s and W-a which has made a bit of a difference but bigger changes might be necessary occasionally.