Vast playing difference from 1 positional change? Huge ME bug?

[Ezequiel_Lavezzi]

Okay,

I am a little confused with some of my recent discoveries of formations in FM. I have been playing hundreds of matches, watching most in FULL match mode, to try and work out a good tactic for my side.

After about 150-200 games in the last 2-3 weeks and religiously trying to understand the game and the way it works, I have come to the conclusion that there are huge huge huge (did I say HUGE) problems with this match engine. (as of 10.2)

Certain formations are guaranteed to score a lot of goals, but leak a lot of goals, while others can gaurantee great defence but rarely score. (I am sure some people can get goals with any formation - but this is from my findings as a basic/casual gamer)

If you guys see my Cleon thread posts, I have literally tried every tactic known to man and why I am not the best manager out there, I was a tester for SI a few years ago and I am playing enough games to find strange patterns concering different tactics.

This is what I have found.

If you try any tactic with 3 strikers (3-4-3, 4-1-2-3, 4-3-3) you will score a mountain of goals regardless of what settings you apply. However your defence will be extreemly leaky.

You may think this is a stupid thing to say, because these tactics are offensive, but one particular test has left me baffled.

I have tried a tactic 4-1-2-1-2 for half a season, having the most solid defence in the League (19 games 5 conceeded). I basically made this tactic ultra defensive and I barely conceed goals with it. Its virtually like the Chelsea tactic, but the DMC is more offensive, and the MCd is extreemly defensive. I then have an AMC at the top of the diamond who penetrates forward but is not used much for defensive purposes. This tactic virtually gets me results rarely over 3 goals. Most games end 1-0, 2-0, 0-0, 2-1 - you know - realistic score lines.

This formation has really been a giant killer - I can beat basically any top side with it and I grab draws when I am not supposed to.

However if I use this formation against a lesser side, I will either win narrowly, draw (this is the usual result) or lose the game narrowly, when the opposing side has had very few shots. (I guess this is because its a narrow formation against defensive sides.)

However I then, placed my AMC into a STRIKER role - so I now have the exact 4-1-2-1-2 formation and instructions, yet it is now a 4-1-2-3. What has happened now is that my MCa, is pumping hundreds of through balls a game to my 3 strikers who always have acres of space. My side who used to struggle to score, is now scoring 3 to 6 goals a game.

This is not the disturbing part, as I think this is down to the CCC bug and defensive issues.

However what troubles me is my side, now conceeds 2-3 goals a game as well. Every game is ending 6-3, 5-3, 3-2. Yet there has been no real changes in my tactic defensively.

All I have done is basically push a tre-quartista into a striker role. What fundementally happens here that causes my side (and ME???) to suddenly score an infiniate amount of goals, yet conceed goals due to absolute abysmal defending.

My defenders stand around, they close down in 2's or 3's when they shouldnt (as I havent told them to!) and the most alarming of all, I am conceeding a huge amoung of freakish long strikes or "freakish" goals - a lot of the goals come in injury time (a HUGE amount) when before this was not the case. Please remember, I have tried this in my own game hundreds of times.

I have then gone to play some of these games over and over (played over 100 games vs Everton, reloading and retrying) to find that no matter what I do - the goals will come from all angles with a narrow/4-3-3/3-4-3/4-1-2-3, but playing a wide 4-5-1, 4-4-2 and playing defensively, actually does basically what it is supposed to do.

All this drastic change from AMC going to ST.

All I want to know is....why?

[SFraser]

It sounds like you have freed their defensively minded midfielder from defensive duties so that there are now in effect two spare attacking threats from both sides.

Think of it is a clash of formations akin to Barcelona versus Arsenal playing their most attacking games. Both holding midfielders in both sides are being swamped by dual playmakers behind a front 3. By moving your Trequartista into the front line you have allowed your 2 CM's to play a narrower and higher game destroying the defensive capability of the opponents deepest CM but at the same time allowing him free passage to pick out passes through your midfield or out wide.

That simple change has changed the entire dynamic of the midfield and you are now playing 5v5 and 5v5 all across the pitch with each team having players in all the key gaps in each others formation.

The reason why you are likely to be losing against lesser sides is that they will play more conservatively in midfield and play on the counter, while bigger teams will play a more attacking game.

[Ezequiel_Lavezzi]

To be honest, with the 3 strikers, I do not really lose to anyone. I only lose/draw to conservative/smaller sides with the old 4-1-2-1-2.

Quite frankly my once tame side is now devastating every team. I put 5 past Villa, 4 into Tottenham - but as usual it will be 5-2, 4-2 etc.

If that is the case, then what would happen if I decide to play with 3 at the back, and adding an extra holding midfielder to take care of that lose CM?

[makmak]

Okay,

This is what I have found.

If you try any tactic with 3 strikers (3-4-3, 4-1-2-3, 4-3-3) you will score a mountain of goals regardless of what settings you apply. However your defence will be extreemly leaky.

Just want to coment on this statement (maybe out of context). I m currently using 4-3-3 formation and what surprised me was, that it very very good defense vise. With Roma i conseded around 20 goals per league season and on my current Arsenal save my defense is equaly efective as Chelsea defense. So best in the league.

Of course it produces a lot of goals.

[Ezequiel_Lavezzi]

Thats strange, I even uploaded other peoples 3 prong'd striker tactics (just to see if it was my failure as a manager the issue) and always found it to be quite terrible.

Maybe you could upload your 4-3-3 tactic to shed some light on why yours is so defensively sound? It could be down to zonal/man/tight marking.

[makmak]

sure try it out, im interested how it will perform for you:

4-3-3 tactic

just some pointers:

- Left striker is set as playmaker. So you have to list him as a playmaker. Think of messi, pjanic, even fabregas..

- Midle stiker is deep lying forward. think of Dzeko, Ibra, Van persie, Eduardo

- Right striker is poacher..so speed, finishing

- Left MC is Advanced playmaker...Iniesta, Nasri, etc

- Midle MC is anker..so tackling, marking, work rate, etc

- Right MC is deep lying playmaker..Veloso type

- Left DC is stopper, Right DC is sweeper (speed)

Only thing i change sometimes is defensive line position, but no more than 3 notches in eather direction. Rarely tempo/width, only if scout/couch recomends it.

Let us know what you find out.

[Law_Man]

sure try it out, im interested how it will perform for you:

4-3-3 tactic

just some pointers:

- Left striker is set as playmaker. So you have to list him as a playmaker. Think of messi, pjanic, even fabregas..

- Midle stiker is deep lying forward. think of Dzeko, Ibra, Van persie, Eduardo

- Right striker is poacher..so speed, finishing

- Left MC is Advanced playmaker...Iniesta, Nasri, etc

- Midle MC is anker..so tackling, marking, work rate, etc

- Right MC is deep lying playmaker..Veloso type

- Left DC is stopper, Right DC is sweeper (speed)

Only thing i change sometimes is defensive line position, but no more than 3 notches in eather direction. Rarely tempo/width, only if scout/couch recomends it.

Let us know what you find out.

I was using a 4-3-3 in my first season as Bolton and went on a sick winning streak and was in contention for the league for a while but then it tailed off and I finished 4th. Second season it has tailed off even further so I might try your 433! I have Dzeko coming on 1st Jan which I'm hoping will help and to be fair I have had some serious injuries to my defenders (of which I don't have many!). If I use it I'll let you know how I get on. As per your above description I see my team being:

Smolarek/Di Mari/Obasi/??? || Dzeko Ricardo || Oliveira (also coming 1st Jan (£2.7m)

(Cardozo) (Elmander)

Ageing Deco || Annan || Aged Beckham

(Mark Davies) Davis Gago

Renan || Hangeland || Cahill || Azipulta (sp)

(Robinson) (Shilla)

Ageing Jussi

By the way Elmander is an absolute ebast for me on 2010 which came as massive suprise! I think its coz he's too footed, strong, determined and works had - let's face it those are his only decent stats! So I'm aiming for strikers with those qualities as a minimum in future.

What are your thoughts on the above line up? Could do with offloading a couple as I am bleeding money (48month purchases!!) before Dzeko arrives for £12.5!

Cheers

[makmak]

Lets not hijack this thread...

To answer your question. Left forward is very important, he has to have Creativity/passing/flair/ etc...so its not a clasical forward. For example on my roma save i ve trained Pjanic for FW position just to play this part and he was awesome.

In your place i would go with di maria.

So try to have 1 main player in this position. If you have Cardozo and Dzeko in same team, pair them up together, they are to good to be sited on the bench. One of them can be a poacher, the other deep lying forward.

Midfiled is ok.

Defence...try to have one fast sweeper at right DC position.

[taz0711]

after reading this i found myself saying "i to have this problem" its annoying, i really do think that there is a bug that SI need to sort out, i love football manager always have always will but this year has been abit of a let down for me, i can never get a tactic to work both with attacking and defending its like you can only have 1 or the other.

[KrisL]

lavezzi can you upload your 4-1-2-1-2

would like to try it