[Football Manager 2024 Official Feedback Thread]

can someone explain:

why every low reputation sides somehow manages to play perfect tiki taka and high press any tactic I come up with when playing away games?

Why do my wingers and wingbacks always lose the ball instantly during away games?

Why can't my players manage to play a fcking through ball or complete a dribble on away games?

why do pressing on away games is flawed to the point that the opposition can have players like giroud dribbling through the whole pitch without being stopped? 

I played an away game with 3 BWMs, 1 PF, tackle hard on every players, much more often pressing and get stuck in, and my players barely made a tackle during the game, how does that happen?

why do every fcking AI managers in this game play both an IWB and an IFB, high press, high line and much more often pressing?

[Please help to adapt my 433 tactic for FM24]

On 21/12/2023 at 08:45, whatsupdoc said:

New engine loves an IWB. I can't get a stable defence without one. I'd change the left back to an iwb (s or d). 

"Mentality" (risk) is in a tricky spot to figure out. For a possession oriented 433 I like using lower mentalities (fb instead of wb) and adding "get further forward" as a PI. So yeah, I'd change the RB to a FB a or s with get further forward PI. 

Front 3 doesn't make sense to me. F9 drags the CBs out of position but nobody attacks the space? I'd change both wide players to IFs, one support one attack. Get further forward PI if it isn't already locked. 

Mezzala (a) is almost a prerequisite for this system. Plays much more like a 10 than an "advanced playmaker" does (AP is terrible in a 433 if you want him to receive between their defence and midfield). I'd try playing around with a mezzala: cross less and the "play through the middle" TI which might get the mezzala playing narrower, like a normal 10 would in a 433.

Short passing f9 433 is really hard to get working at the moment. Try adding a HB if you want a next level challenge

Interested to hear how you've been going!

The MEZ-a sits way too high and leaves a hole in your midfield, against good opposition generally you get punished for that. In the previous edition this was mitigated because the F9 would sometimes drop deep and rotate with the MEZ-a, but in this edition he's not doing that anymore and this is a problem. While the AP-a frequently drop deep to receive a pass and is less inclined to leave a hole in the midfield during build up.

Also, IF and IW roles are basically identical in this game, the only thing that makes a difference are traits. An IW will behave just like an IF if you teach him to move into channels, and the only way you'll get your IF/IW to cut inside is if you teach him the trait, otherwise he'll run to the byline and cross or lose the ball like a regular winger.

Finally, I think that having 2 IF makes the width collapse too early.

[Please help to adapt my 433 tactic for FM24]

2 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

It might be something to do with your tactic. Because False9 in my 433 works just as well as he did in FM23. And drops just as deep. 

Hmm, I'd like to see your tactic and compare it to the one I use, as well as how your F9 looks like. Mine has comes deep to get ball as well as arrives late into box and generally he never drops past the opposite DM/CM.

Also I'd like to see photos where we can see the F9 drop into midfield during build up.

Edit: yeah no mate, I think we're playing different games. I just simulated a game on FM24 vs a lower division opponent playing a 4-4-2, my F9 is playing the whole game like a bad poacher even though he has the space, the instructions and the PPMs to drop deep. He has on his right side a MEZ-a and a W-s, on his left side an IF-s and a DLP-s and he barely dropped lower than the opp deeper midfielder.

[Please help to adapt my 433 tactic for FM24]

15 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

For your information, False9 role is not affected by positional play changes in FM24. That's only for IFD, IWB, Halfback, SV, Mezzala, Advanced Playmaker (in CM strata), RPM, Mezzala and other Midfielders in CM and DM strata. And Libero. False 9 should still behave as it did in FM23

Exactly it should, but it doesn't. Try it in both versions (in a 4-3-3 or 5-2-3 formation) and you'll notice that in FM23 the F9 drops deeper and more frequently, and moves into channels if instructed to do so. While in FM24 he stays rather static. 

[Please help to adapt my 433 tactic for FM24]

Hey mate, I have used your tactic in FM23 and I think it was insanely good.

In this edition I think there are a couple of problems that inherently cripple your F9 and therefore nerf down the tactic.

Due to positional play, it does not matter which traits you teach your F9 or which instructions you give him in order to drop deep, roam and move into channels. Your F9 is pushed into staying central and will play like an inefficient spearhead. I'll explain myself:

I'm 100% sure that the ME uses some kind of repelling potential between players so that they don't occupy the same zones, as well as making sure there is a player in each of the five channels.

Due to the fact that the 4-3-3 formation spans the field as efficiently as possible, you will generally always have deeper or wider players that either occupy (or are hard coded to move into) zones that the F9 could possibly roam into. So the only space your F9 can and must occupy is the "spearhead".

Other than that, your IW-a is pushed wide by your MEZ-a (even during build up) and I don't think the FB-s will be able to help him once you get to the flank. So I think that your IW-a will frequently get into situations where he is hugging the byline and does not have an easy passing option to recycle, and will therefore get pressed easily during away games where the AI is more aggressive.

Edit: It's even worse than I thought, the F9 can't drop lower than in between the opp defenders and the defensive midfielders. I've just made the test playing a 5-2-3 with no DM running forward. Even with acres of space in the midfield and nobody hard coded to occupy it, the F9 stays high. The role is completely bugged.

[A few suggestions about the F9 and some other roles, as well as positional play]

Hi,

There are couple of things I'd like to adress in this post, but the main motive of this post is to be able to recreate guardiola's barcelona in the golden era.

First, I'd like to say that the efforts you put in the rotations in the early build up are game changing, and I hope to see this applied even further up the field.

Second, I'll state the "issues" I see in the game related to the F9 and how it interacts with other players on the field, and then bring on my suggestions on how to remediate to those "issues". In order to bring the subject, I feel like sharing the tactic I use will help me build my point (although it's mostly a tactic I downloaded from passion4fm and then tweaked a bit):

The issues I see with the F9 are:

• during early build up, in our third, he mostly stays in the AMC strata and sometimes move into the left channel to let the AP-a move further up thanks to positional play. But it never rotates position with the AP or make the other kind of rotation I'd like to see, where the DLP drops deep, the F9 drops to form a midfield diamond (or box maybe), the CWB pushes up to fill the IF's spot and the IF pushes up and central to fill the F9's spot to create Cruyff's 3-4-3. These kind of rotations feel somehow prohibited by the match engine.
• during mid build up, in the second third, he wobbles around the AMC position and tries (unsuccesfully) to attack the opposition's defensive line just like an AF would do, instead of helping with build up and letting the IF and IW push the defense instead.
• In the final third, he simply reverts to a basic poacher, occupying the opposition's area and waits patiently for a cross like Peter Crouch instead of dropping down and helping to create.
• he barely tries to collect the ball, it just plays like an anchor in the AMC strata and rarely moves down the field to help. He always takes half measures like dropping a bit but not enough to link up and create space for the wingers, or attacking the defensive line but not enough to be real threat.
• the opposition's defensive line pushes up when it sees the F9 dropping, which negates most of the F9's strength, and renders this role a bit useless.

There are also issues I see with other roles that I would like to tackle:

• the AP-a has two kind of behaviors, if the instruction to get further forward is ticked, he will position himself in the right channel in the AM strata and will extremely rarely drop down to collect the ball, look to break through the line like a MEZ-a (which I understand, he's an AP, not a MEZ), or rotate with the F9. If the instruction is not ticked, he will position himself almost as deep as the DLP (which I find problematic because he will hardly link up with the F9 and will push the IW to drop down to effectively link up with him).
• the IF/IW roles have two modus operandi; if the instructions to hold up ball or look for overlap/underlap are ticked, they take their sweet time and get pressed into loosing the ball against good opposition. And if these instructions are not ticked, they dribble down the flank to the byline 9 times out of 10, instead of recycling, cutting inside or looking for a one-two. On the other hand, roles like the new winger, the AP-s, and the RMD do way better in those aspects. The new winger cuts way more often than the IF or the IW, while the AP-s on the wing and the RMD do not dwell on the ball as much as the IF/IW, do not dribble as soon as they receive the ball, pass way more effectively, and are way harder to press down.
• the IF role is a bit obsolete, without the PPM to move into channels, it reproduces the IW's behaviour but in a more selfish way and it is not clear how the IF-s changes from the IF-a.
• the roaming playmaker does not really position itself very well either, it positions itself in between the AP-s and the AP-a, it drops deep but not as often as it should and in the final third it's roaming ability is limited, also a player's ability to play a RPM is inversely proportional to his tackling attribute. A player with a tackling attribute higher than 4 or 5 will never be more than competent in this role. (this is also the case with the TQ's role in the AMC strata and teamrate+work rate attributes)
• the CWB is too "strict" in its movement, it rather stays wide and look at the DLP getting pressed down instead of moving a bit inside to help (even with narrow width and much shorter passing), which I think is curious when you know that "roam from position" is hard coded into the role. On attack duty, it persists to dribble down the flank and cross even though his PPM/instructions do not incline him to do this, And on support duty he is a bit more intelligent in his decisions, but persists on sitting in the wide midfielder position during build up instead of attacking the space left by the IF moving into the channel.

Finally, the behaviour of players in the final third is a bit too "one dimensional", and the only way I found to partially work around this is to play with the lowest tempo setting, which invites too much pressure on the wingers and the playmakers on away games (even with 17 to 18 in composure anticipation and decisions).

Basically, with anything higher than "lower tempo",  all the players in the attacking strata get into the opposition's box, no matter the role or the duty, the F9 leads the line, the wingers and the F9 sit into the box even though there is plenty of space everywhere else like on the wings or just outside the box. The wingback tries to cross every chances he gets, and the fullback and the defensive midfield strata start to shoot like it's call of duty. All in all, when arriving to the final third it seems like every player forget to make use their attributes like OTB, decisions or composure and the positional structure breaks down.

What I have also noticed, is that there is either a time limite before one decides to shoot, or a limit on the number of passes in the final third because someone decides to shoot. Effectively, it feels like my team is playing final fantasy, and it has a timer on its attacking turn, after which it's the opponent's turn to attack.

I think I'm done with listing the issues (and ranting about them), now it's time for suggestions:

• rotations between the F9 (and maybe the CF-s/TQ) and all the roles in the AM and CM strata should be implemented, like it has been done for the deeper roles, in order to reproduce the role more faithfully. Also the F9 should have the licence to roam freely practically anywhere from the CM or DM strata to the ST strata. (for my argument I'll use Busquet's famous assist to messi. This can be reproduced only if the DM meets the ST somewhere, and it better not be in the final third)
• roles with "roaming from position" should partially bypass the positional play structure and permit any two or three adjacent players, for which you tick on the instruction, to rotate around. For example, a MEZ could rotate with an IF or an IWB.
• there should be a PPM or an instruction that permits a player to completely bypass the positional play structure and look to collect the ball, either on the other side of the pitch to overload, or drop one or two strata down (like from AM to DM or from CM to defense) to help build up, without it inhibiting the ability to go further forward when needed. Another way that this could be done, is to have a new PI or TI named: look for overload / respect structural play for example.
• I think the PPM linked to movements should be revamped, the instruction "comes deep to get ball" should not impact the ability of a player to get further forward when there is a possibility to attack space, and vice versa, a player with get further forward should be able to drop deep if there is space behind. Maybe a "looks for space to attack" and "looks for space to create" would make the game a bit more dynamic. This would permit a player to fill the space left by another player, either in order to receive a through ball, or in order to create something from there.
• the F9 role should get the playmaker treatment and look to collect the ball more often, also I think the instruction "play with back to the goal" should be somehow implemented into the role because right now it just feels like a half AF when it really should look to link up between the wingers and the midfielders.
• In the final third, the F9 should delay his arrival to the box (with or without the PPM, I tried it and the PPM does help maybe 1 out of 10 times), or make the shuttle between the edge and the box. Otherwise there is no use to the F9 and I might play a DLF-a or a CF-a instead. The behaviour that is closest to this is the AP-s behaviour in the AMC position, he reproduces this kind of arriving late into the box way better than the F9.
• the opposition's defensive line should not push up and be shoulder to shoulder with the F9, the DM is already responsible for that job and I feel that pushing the defensive line up kills the role.
• the AP-a should roam more and behave more like the RPM does right now, he should both attack the channel and and drop deeper to collect the ball at an equal rate, making his average vertical position between the DLP and the F9.
• the IW should behave a bit more like the AP-s on the wing, with a 50/50 chance for him to pass or to dribble. He should be able to cut inside at least 6 times out of 10 without teaching him the PPM, and not 1-2 out 10 which is what happens as of now without the PPM. If I wanted a winger that dribbles through the flank I'd pick a winger.
• the IF should behave more closely to the RMD, it should attack channels as a standard behaviour and without having the need to teach him the PPM, and like the IW he should look to cut inside even without the PPM. He should perform way more one-twos (with the PPM) than he currently does and stop running down the flank at every opportunity he gets. He should also be able to play like a central threat on the attack duty and lead the line when instructed to sit narrower.
• the RPM should behave more closely to the BBM and drop deep on a more frequent basis, help with overload on each sides of the pitch and should be able to tackle. Right now I feel like the RPM is too focused on attacking (in positive mentality at least).
• the CWB should be able to move into channels in order to offer an option to pass for the midfielders, it should also move towards the byline once the half line has been reached, and act like a winger no matter what duty is on. The funny fact is that if you put the CWB in the DM strata, it does run towards the AM strata during build up, but then other problems occur and make this quite ineffective. Also, the CWB-a should be able to partake in more one-twos and stop running down the byline to cross on every possible occasion.
• I think the instruction to dribble more should not be hard coded for the following roles (W, IF, IW), because it ruins the player's ability to make a good decision. Another possibility is to create a blank role in the winger strata to allow more flexibility in the gameplay.
• In the final third, not all players should occupy the box constantly, and not every wingers/wingbacks should try to cross like their life depend on it. Not everyone is Mike Bassett's apprentice and I'd rather see some good cut backs instead of the regular run down to byline and cross. Right now, it is a complete chaos in the final third except for the defensive unit, which tries to shoot on every possible occasions even with the instructions and PPM to not do so. Players with support duty or good OTB attribute (or players with the PPM to look for space to create) should drop deep to revive the attack. IF/IW should also not attack the box in the final third when they are 5 foot tall and there are acres of spaces on the wings to occupy.
• Even when playing with a high defensive line, there should be a possibility for defensers to drop deep to stretch the space between the lines, same for the central midfielders, no matter their roles, and allow teams to stop squishing the pitch while building up, no matter where they are on the field. And when in the final third, the option to recycle possession should be the "go to" option instead of having a DM with the accuracy of a shotgun trying to finesse the ball into the net at every occasion he gets. Players should collectively feel that the box is too crowded and that it is wiser to drop down in each unit to have more space between the lines, specially in the final third. This would reduce the "final fantasy" feeling where each team takes a turn at attacking the other. I think this is possible to do using the same principle you used for positional play. Or via the use of some kind of repulsive potential between players of each team, making them effectively feel when there are too much players stacked in one area.
• Another thing, playing narrow should encourage the tricky one-twos or one touch passes that are so beautiful to watch and made football so interesting to watch in my opinion. Even near the edge of the box, a good team should be able to pull these moves even against the tightest defenses, and it should be considered in the ME as risky as taking a long shot, dribbling through the center or looking for a cross by the byline when your players are all midgets. Basically the "try killer balls often" and the "plays one-twos" PPM should push this kind of behaviour more often.
• Micro-movements and repositionning should be revamped or allowed via an instruction I think. What I mean by that is: to every player, assign a small circle on the field around him, in this circle the player is allowed to roam around to find a more effective position to receive the ball and allow the team to gradually break down the opposition's defense by repetitive micro-displacements. Maybe a motion governed both by Fick's (diffusion) and Hooke's (spring) law could do the trick, with the diffusion pushing the player to explore around the center randomly, and the spring making sure he comes back to his position with more eagerness the further he deviates from it.

 

Thank you to those having the patience to read this long post, I really enjoyed playing fm23 and fm24 this past year and I hope that some of the suggestions I wrote here will make the cut for next year's edition.

 

 

[more PI freedom in the winger position]

Hi, is it possible to have more PI freedom in the winger position?

Basically I would like to play with IFs or IWs without the dribble more instruction because I feel like they always dribble as soon as they get the ball instead of looking for better options first and they always get into cul-de-sac.

I've tried other roles like AP(s) or RMD but the first one is too passive out of possession and does not attack channels, and the other one does not track back enough. 

And I don't feel comfortable using the dribble less TI for one or two players only. Also it feels like the dribble less TI make the players more predictable as in they won't try tricky passes or dribble to get out of trouble, instead they opt for safe passing options and they get pressed way more easily.

Also, I've seen that WBs recently got the dribble more instruction revoked and I think it would be nice to have the IF, IW and W roles go through the same change.