[The FM 2023 and 2024 .. I guess.. 4-2-3-1 DM Thread]

On 23/09/2023 at 06:19, hotredabyss said:

@Johnny Ace I wonder, what you think about the Segundo Volante? Seems like in fm 23 DM and SV are the best pair on those plug and play tactics, but as someone who absolutely loves Box-to-box type of roles, i always try to see if it's possible to fit it on a 4231 ( which btw is probably my least favorite shape  and that is just bc i love a solid midfield trio as in the 433 and 532 )

Currently got into a save with Levante and will rebuild it to play them in a 4231 or 433, but it always looks like my midfield duo is simply not enough, even with a FB or both being in roles such as DLP or Anchor. Will use this image to illustrate a concept that i would like to use as i have my eyes on players who can fit well on these roles, and someone with more experience using Inverted Wing-Backs correct me if im wrong, but can a IWGB work as the pivot when the SV goes forward? Anyway, what would you change and why? Which TI's you think i would need to employ in games where im the better side? And maybe getting a bit ahead of myself, how would you setup a low block counter attack against La Liga sides better than you? As always, great thread too, it's great to read such topics and get many opinions on fm, perhaps my favorite thing in this community 

 

I don't have much experience with the 4-2-3-1 DMs, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But how I'd achieve what you're trying to do is I'd have the left-back on defend duty, to counterbalance the right-back who plays more like a midfielder. That means the left-winger would have a traditional winger role. And it would also free up the left DM to be on support duty. Maybe even the AM as well, who could have an attack duty to provide more options inside the box given the pure wingers sending in crosses from both sides.

That way, in the attacking phase you'd have 3 at the back and 3 in the DM/CM area to link up with the front 4 (with the SV eventually making it a front 5). Which looks pretty balanced and cohesive to me.

[4-4-2 Flat Lower League Formation (ChatGPT)]

In terms of roles, a setup that's worked great for me, from the lower leagues all the way up to the highest level, is something like this:

GK: Goalkeeper - D

RB: Full Back - S
RCB: Central Defender - D (or Ball Playing Defender if you have one, but that's rarer in lower leagues)
LCB: Central Defender - D
LB: Full Back - A

RM/AMR: Winger - A
RCM: Deep Lying Playmaker - S (I like to have a playmaker, but a standard Central Midfielder should be fine here as well)
LCM: Central Midfielder - D
LM/AML: Winger - S

AMCL: Shadow Striker - A

STCR: Deep Lying Forward - S (or Complete Forward if you have one, but again, rarer in lower leagues. Target Man should work fine too with the SS nearby and wingers putting in crosses)

You might say this is more of a 4-4-1-1 / 4-2-3-1, but it works very much like a classic 4-4-2. Except that your forwards (I consider the shadow striker to be one) will be much more involved in the build-up and your shadow striker will help defensively. SS + DLF is an amazing pair and them being staggered rather than aligned vertically just ensures that they're not occupying the same spaces, as well as give better options for your wingers to play one-twos with.

[Simple crafting of a 4-3-3 DM]

On 02/04/2023 at 08:59, Johnny Ace said:

One of the more popular shapes in football, I thought I’d craft together three 4-4-3 DMs and show my thought processes behind the choice of roles and duties for each one

I’m not going to include Team Instructions, they’re not intended as Plug and Play or anything, they’re not magic or anything fancy, just straight forward simple 4-3-3’s, feel free to use the ideas or use them as a base, the idea is they’re nice and balanced and follow simple logic

4-3-3 Number One- the out and striker

For when you have a great striker that excels in scoring goals, think a Man City 4-3-3 with Haaland

Starting with the back four, the straight forward option here is a pair of Central Defenders, a Ball-Playing Defender is a good option with a capable player to play out from the back. As I’ll have a DM as an easy option for the centre backs two plain Jane Central Defenders will be fine here.

I’ll be going with Wingbacks as I’ll have a defensive DM for cover and I’ll be inverting the wide attackers, so I see them as a good choice to get forward in those wide areas, stretch the opposition and provide crosses

 

For the DM slot, I do want a Defend duty role here so that narrows down the options, a Half Back would great for when we’re playing out from the back, a Deep Lying Playmaker would be a creative pick, an Anchor would be a solid and disciplined choice, a Defensive Midfielder would serve just fine, sitting in front of the backline and letting the Wingbacks forward

 

The two midfield “8’s” serve an important job to link, supply, cover and create. Both wingbacks will be getting forward, both wide attackers will be moving infield, I don’t need either of these two trying to get too far forward and piling into the box. If they did that, they might break too far away from the DM and create a huge chasm of space in the midfield which would cause us problems in build-up and transition. Two Central Midfielders on Support here would do the job but let’s have some fun.

A natural ball winner could help patrol the right hand side of midfield with the WB(A) on that flank. A BBM(S) on the left side of central midfield would help offer something different. BBMs like to surge between the boxes and roam, having the WB(S) on his side of the field would tie up nicely.

The Front three

The number 9, Football Manager gives plenty of choice here in terms of roles.

The available roles to most teams will be the Pressing Forward to lead the line and chase down centre backs out of possession, great for high pressing tactics. The Poacher to stay in the box and sniff out chances, little else and the Advanced Forward as a bit of an inbetween. As the full backs will be providing the team with crosses, a Target Forward could be a choice but in a 4-3-3 DM, I feel it’s a little one dimensional and would prefer a partner for the TF in the AMC or Striker position. The 

Complete Forward is an amazing striker role, he has to be a very well rounded player and won’t be as common amongst squads

From out wide on the right, we’ll have the Wing Back overlapping so we have options here that cut infield. He could be the focus as an Advanced Playmaker or Trequartista. I only have an attacking 3 though so I want him more focused on getting into the box to create and score and the Inside Forward is perfect for that. The Inside Forward is one of the more attacking roles from out wide, the way I see it, the IF on Attack is a primary goal scorer from wide like prime Mo Salah, he is the Inside Forward on Attack. An Inside Forward on Support here will still push forward, cut in, create and score but will have slightly more focus on supporting the striker over an Attack duty

For the opposite wing, I want a creative role again to help feed the number 9, again an Advanced Playmaker could be a great choice but it’s not very often you’ll be starting a managerial job with a player at your disposal capable of playing the role. Another Inside Forward on Support this side of the field might be too much and would mirror the flanks, so an Inverted Winger will do as needed

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Nice and simple, the line-up offers something different on both sides of the field, the roles (barring the Central Defenders) all have different tasks. The midfield work as a nice trio and will do a great job in covering central areas and getting the ball forward to the front 3. The Wingbacks give the team width, the right WB, the more attacking of the two and has cover on that side firstly from the BWM and secondly from the DM. The front 3 all have different jobs. AF score, IF create and score, IW create.

Great stuff!

The 4-3-3 is my favorite formation, I think it achieves the best balance in terms of providing both midfield control and width. Though I've also had a lot of success with the 4-4-1-1. I'd like to try the 3-4-2-1 too, as it's pretty popular in modern football and I think achieves a nice distribution of players offensively, but I generally feel kinda iffy about 3-at-the-back formations.

And, for all its popularity, I can't for the life of me make a 4-2-3-1 work properly. The 4-2-3-1 DM is just too disjointed and splits the team in half. The 4-2-3-1 with CMs I just see as a variant of the 4-4-1-1 where you're pushing your wingers higher up, fine in home games where you're much stronger than the opposition or when you're losing near the end, but I'd never use it in other situations.

I'd say both of your formations actually look more like Klopp's 4-3-3 (full-backs providing width, industrious midfield, and wingers tucking in) than Guardiola's. And just glancing at the thread it looks like everyone is playing with either both wingers tucking in (IF/IW/AP), or one pure winger (W) and the other one tucking in. The later is generally my preference as well when playing a 4-3-3, but I'm actually curious if someone's tried a variant with pure wingers on both sides. Something like this:

Either a 2-3 (with both FBs tucking in alongside the DM) or a 3-2 at the back (with one FB tucking in alongside the CBs, while the other tucks in higher up alongside the DM). Both wingers on the side of their strong foot, very much like traditional wingers (both with the Winger role). Then you'd have that 5-man frontline which is common in modern football, but with the wingers (rather than the full-backs) providing the width. While the CMs would almost play like inside forwards (in the original sense) and provide more options inside the box to receive the crosses from the wings. Making up for the lack of natural box presence in the 4-3-3 compared to, say, the classic 4-4-2 (where playing with traditional wingers on both sides was much more common due to the striker duo up front).

I'm not sure how to make it work, though. As it basically requires having the two CMs on attack duty, which generally isn't ideal. So I'm curious how you'd try setting something like this up.

EDIT: I somehow missed @Adonalsium's post! xD Nice job, that's exactly what I was looking for! Don't you have some defensive problems with the two CM's being on attack duty, though?

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

22 hours ago, Kevinmatt said:

My issue is i'm not creating many chances or scoring goals ive attached a sceenshot 

 

For what it's worth, I'd put Rashford on IF attack and Asensio on IW support. They fit each role perfectly.  Asensio is more of a playmaker type, while Rashford is faster and probably has better off the ball movement so he's better at running behind the defence. Even better if he has Beat Offside Trap PPM but I'm not sure.

Of course I'd also switch the full backs' roles (attack duty on the right, support duty on the left) to keep it consistent.

[Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023]

Been lurking this thread for a while and I created this account to say how much I appreciate it!

And since you're trying to create something close to Ten Hag's Ajax, this video might be of interest:

 

What I find particularly interesting in Ajax this season is how they play with a target man like Haller, which isn't very common in possession sides (another example that comes to mind is Giroud in Wenger's Arsenal) and adds variety to their game. It's something I'd like to create in FM, possession football with a target man.