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  1. I read this thread yesterday and seeing as the content in the thread is based on football manager 2013, it raised a few questions. The thread in question: Now we all enjoy splashing the cash and signing big name players and most regular players of football manager don't understand the importance the hidden attributes play in the moulding of young talent for the first team - whether that be the staff member or the player - see from what I've read personalities can reveal what their hidden attributes might actually be. I would value these personalities; Model citizen Resolute Perfectionist Model professional/professional/fairly professional In saying that, when comes to players it's not that complex but your backroom staff is a different story. See when it comes to the coaching staff and scouts, is how important is it for all your backroom staff to have roughly the same personalities and be on the same page when it comes to the way you win a football match. Is it better to use four at the back or go with three centerbacks, wingbacks? Should a system based upon high pressing be preferred by everybody at the club? After all you do rely on the coaches to train your player with the aim to get the same players becoming first team regulars in the future - you can't have coach training them to play route one football, then expect they become 1st team regulars within a club that plays a short passing, possession type football. It makes no sense. A good example would be Ajax, they have way of playing football - Ajax strives to keep their brand of football attractive, offensive-minded, creative and inside their opponents half. This means the scouts have the job of finding young players who have the necessary qualities the coaches can work with - coaches need the scouts sign players that can be taught to play the Ajax way. I'm pretty sure that if your backroom staff don't agree with tactical style that shouldn't be working for you! See I would think that having backroom staff that don't agree disagree with the manager on the way football should be played - well that just isn't good and would be counter productive to say the least. For the football be transformed from under 18's to the reserves, then the first team - should all the coaches and scouts agree? When it comes to playing mentality, playing style, pressing style, and tactical style? Or a combination of the above, . Playing mentality ranges from; Attacking Adventurous Balanced Cautious Very cautious. Playing styles range from; Long Direct Mixed Passing Pressing styles range from; Urgent Balanced Non-urgent. Tactical styles range from; Control possession Gegenpress Tika-taka Wingplay Route one Fluid counterattack Direct counterattack Catenaccio. It's safe to say if you want to see your team passing it long, your not gonna be a fan of tika-taka but rather route one football. The same could be said about non-urgent pressing, if you like that - you probably don't your team playing a high pressing game and therefore a high defensive line but rather passive, defensive type football. For example I like Klopp's brand of football, so I'd go with; A balanced or attacking playing mentality An urgent pressing style A mixed/short playing style A tactical style of control possession/gegenpress/fluid counterattack This would mean all your staff share similar personalities and all agree on the blueprint that has put into place by the manager! I'm curious whether I'm on the right track? Should all your coaches be on the same page?
  2. Nice write up, cheers for testing the system and giving me something to think about. That said, I wonder where you set LOE (line of engagement)? If I remember correctly there are 4 options, "maximum", "standard", "lower" and "much lower" - correct? Obviously if you want to compact the 4-2-2-2 as much as possible a LOE that is set to "much lower" would be the best option. I'm guessing but yeah, did you set the LOE at just "lower" or "much lower? Also did you play with a high line or just a standard low block? I'm curious. I understand that your LOE (line of engagement) and DL (defensive line), would be set differently depending on your opponent but what would your LOE and DL be in these 3 scenarios; 1. Playing at home against a Champions League team? 2. Playing away against a Champions League team? 3. Playing away against a middle or lower league table team? I'm thinking you probably used a LOE set at "much lower" and a DL set at "higher" - is that correct? That was the "LOE" and "DL" of my system but whether, not sure what you used but the important question is whether or not I use "re-group" or "counter-press"? I agree that is the big question. From watching some older Villareal games you can see the forward pressing the defensive midfielders from behind, with one of the creative attacking midfielders pressing him front, and from a different angle the wing-back, or inside forward pressing him- the ball carrier or in this case the defensive midfielder, he is trouble, big trouble unless he can pass his way out. This is why I'm not surprised that you found the marking aspects of the system is one the most important, like you said... The most effective instructions for my front 4: MARKING Both Strikers always have to mark the opponents Central Midfielder, in a 433 both cm, in a 523 both cm, in a 4231 both cm, in a 4213 both dm ... you get it. The team defends in an extreme compact formation. But the two IFs both have to man mark the opposition's Full Backs/Wing Backs, this prevents quick overlaps on the wings, making it harder to find spaces for crosses. Here is a screen shot of a Villareal game: You can see both forward looking to press the midfielder who is on the ball. You can clearly see the inside forward (on the bottom, left of the pitch) man-marking the fullback.
  3. I thought the same but it's actually having the 2 players in the half spaces that gives this system dynamism.
  4. At first I thought about just lining up on the tactics board as just a 4-4-2, probably would really matter much but there is one very good reason you pointed out "I wouldn't need to have my LOE so god damn low. Right now I have no choice but set the LOE very low, this way it makes my attacking midfielders drop in and make it flat 4 man midfield, if I drop the attacking wide midfielders into lining up as "wide play makers" and set the LOE at standard... it would mean those attacking midfielders are still exploited the half spaces but can press from their default position as WP stationed in a 4-4-2 that turns into a 4-2-2-2 - and it makes sense that the WP will see more of the ball, so it's worth trying But it might just be a case of there is always two ways to skin a cat" tho, that said if setting them does nothing other than "get my best attacking players to see more of the ball" -- that might be worth switching things up. But as they stand atm, the attacking wide play makers are more advanced - but like I said it's worth trying. Same goes for my forwards. Instead of one forward set a Poacher, set the same forward as playing the "Advanced forward" role but you need to have that forward makes out wide, we he has the ball... very important - seeing as tho Robert Pires and Santi Carzola often drifted into central areas and found themselves making late runs into the box - the forwards would wide and link up with the attacking fullbacks or Marcos Senna or another defensive midfielder... making sure as many players as possible exploit the space in between the channels is deffo a good, if not great thing to do... an Advanced forward (attack duty) acts very similar to a Poacher but can do more than just run onto through balls, the other might either Complete forward on (support duty) or just have a Deep lying forward (support duty)? Lastly if I'm going to have both my wingbacks be very attacking - I might try setting my BWM on (defend duty) rather than (support) EDIT... I've kept my wide attacking, playmaking midfielders more advanced, but as AP's or advanced players not inside forward. See rather than withdraw them and set them to operate as wide players, in the left midfield and right midfield areas of the pitch - nah I just taking full advantage of their horizontal movement rather their vertical movement. I read somewhere that he was influenced by the South American 4-2-4 but had his attacking midfielders, TRACKING BACK rather than make vertical runs from right midfield - you might get a more of a solid, defensive Simeone type system, rather than a South American, samba style influenced system that is a cross between a European 4-4-2 and a South American style 4-2-2-2.. by the media in Spain, Villarreal was reported as being;
  5. I didn't explain what I meant, by attacking playmakers - it's just in my setup I make sure the highly creative players who drift around are positioned as wide attacking midfielders with the freedom to roam and interchange with the other attacking players - rather than in the traditional number 10 role, see I like players who could be seen as a traditional playmaker (number 10's) but your right tho, the only player maker would be my deep lying midfielder. Setting them as Advanced playmakers might work but Inside forward instruction are more suited tho, that said I'll look into that possible change tho. EDIT: btw cheers for the advice regarding this.
  6. It's just gone September and we are sitting in 3rd position in the league, but more importantly we just beat Real Madrid 4-0. After rewatching the game, I decided to take a few screen shot of how my player position themselves within the system. This shows that without possession, the team is lining up in a verycompact 4-4-2 This screen shot is taken during a more attacking phase of the game. The defensive block is in dark green, the attacking midfielders drifting in and out central areas are blue, the fullbacks cyan and the two forward in dark red.
  7. Okay I want to recreate Villarreal's 4-2-2-2 that turned into a 4-4-2 when they lost possession of the ball. Similar to the way Simeone gets Atletico Madrid operating in a compact, high pressing 4-4-2. I want both attacking play makers to drift inside for the spaces between their central mids and wingers (when we got the ball) But then slot into the wide midfielder role within a very compact and hard to break down 4-4-2. My thinking is the only the way to have the attacking midfielder roaming around the pitch and interchanging with each other and the forwards, is to position them in more advanced positions (LAM and RAM) both are set as Inside forwards on support duty but what I'm thinking is rater than get the team to counter-press - set the whole to drop into a very compact, defensive 4-4-2 shape... once the LOE is triggered start urgently pressing, this why the defensive line is higher and the LOE is much lower - we need tp stay very compact until we win the ball back, then launch a counter attack.... rinse and repeat. Centre back: Shoot less often, dribble less and hold position Ball-playing centre back: Take more risks and hold position Wingback (left and right): Sit narrower, close down more and mark tighter Ball winning midfielder: Take fewer risks, hold position and mark tighter Deep lying playmaker: Shoot less often, take more risks and hold position Inside forward (left and right): Sit narrower, dribble more and cut inside with the ball Poacher: Dribble less, take fewer risks and get further forward Complete forward: Stay wider, hold up the ball and dribble more Yes sometimes we will counter-press, say at home against a bottom half team or when looking for a goal against a counter attacking/defensive 4-1-4-1 .. but mostly I'm not going to counter-press regularly -- in my opinion, it leaves to many hole in your system that the opposition can exploit and that can get you in trouble... that's why when we loose possession of the ball, Pedraza and Kubo need to drop the be inline with Coquelin and Iborra.The 4-4-2 needs to be very compact and that means the forwards drop deeper and the backline pushing higher slightly but I'm not sure how the line LOE and DL effect the teams shape and the players positioning... that's why I'm asking. EDIT: Here is a link to the thread about the system I'm trying recreate,
  8. Chilean coach Manuel Pellegrini employs a 4-2-2-2 system that grants his attacking players the freedom to roam anywhere in the attacking third, something the ex-Milan midfielder favors. "I love the 4-2-2-2 formation of Pellegrini because the players have the freedom of getting around where ever we want. When we have the ball at our feet the coach gives us the freedom to move and that is very positive for everyone," Kaka explained. Currently I'm in the process of a Villarreal CF save, I'm currently half way through the season and am enjoying very much - the plan to get them playing in the 4-2-2-2 that Manual Pellegrini brought to the club and in doing so hopefully win plenty of trophies, that said... sticking to the blueprints laid out at Villarreal by Pellegrini is more important, player may come and go but the system is a constant --- in case you aren't aware of the 4-2-2-2 that was implemented by Manual Pellegrini at Villarreal in 2005, here is a more recent variant of his 4-2-2-2 he used at Malaga in around 2010: ; (when the ball is lost the 4-2-2-2 system drops back into a very compact defensive 4-4-2 shape) The key defensive players, would be the defensive midfielders Toulalan and Camacho, the reason why they are seen as being very important is that both players form the defensive foundations that this whole system is built upon. Both defensive midfielders will protect the centre backs, and always to move together tightly, never allowing space to appear between them. This is the very important defensive block in the defensive third, the quartet between both defensive midfielders and both centre backs that makes it very hard for the opposition to unlock and mean that playing the football through would be easy. The are called the double but one is definitely slightly more attacking minded, personally one would be a more aggressive ball winning midfielder, the other is slightly more of a creative, deep-lying playmaker but f need be, both defensive midfielders have the ability to drop into the fullbacks position and provide cover for fullback if were get badly caught out of position. The line of engagement is much lower by two, the defensive line is higher by one and the defensive width is set on zero, this makes the system is very compact both vertically and horizontally. Also when the line of engagement is crossed the pressing intensity is set on more urgent and the wide players are set for pressing to be very urgent, whilst the pressing for the central players is set on regular. But from time to time, when we are playing a team at home that we really should beat - I will counter-press and put the line of engagement a lot higher towards the opponents box. As for the more advanced, attacking players.. well Isco and Joaquin fit the bill. They are both traditional attacking midfielders, within the 4-2-2-2 they operate in the spaces between the wider areas of the pitch and more central areas using very fluid horizontal attacking movement. These types of players are very influential and because of this they are expensive. That said, during the defensive phase the plays a very compact, defensive 4-4-2 shape and as a team they focus on heavily pressing as a unit - the defensive midfielders move to the left and so does the wide midfielders, and the more advanced attacking players - anyways, once Malaga loose possession of the ball, Isco and Joaquin will slot into to the wide midfield positions. When Malaga have possession of the football this system requires the attacking midfielders to act as play makers in advanced positions, in the half spaces. You want Isco and Joaquin create havoc in the spaces between the opponents central midfielders and traditional wingers. The advanced attacking midfielders that are positioned in the half spaces are circled in yellow. You also need to have forwards that are comfortable venturing into wider areas and dropping into deep position to receive the ball of the deep lying playing makers, for this to work successfully it means that your forwards need to be comfortable drifting into not only deeper areas but also wider areas too. This means that the forwards will be droping deeper to overload midfield and play one touch passes with midfielders to create a holes in defensive structure and vacating space for the attacking midfielder to run into or that same to act as a play maker who has the freedom to roam around creating chances for the forwards to take advantage of. This is why Pellegrini has used wide forwards that would be naturally comfortable on the wing, he often turned wide forwards in central forward. EDIT; the video below is in French but the visuals is all we care about and they are good at showing player movements, passing angles and passing lanes.. not too mention how sustained pressing influence the direction of the match.. well worth a look; Other articles... https://timhi.wordpress.com/2010/11/05/villarreal-brazilian/ https://justanotherfootballblog.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-guide-to-4-2-2-2-manuel-pellegrinis.html?m=1 https://thesefootballtimes.co/2019/06/24/how-manuel-pellegrini-guided-riquelme-forlan-senna-and-co-to-stunning-heights-at-villarreal/ https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/88/spain/2009/09/19/1510136/kaka-i-like-pellegrinis-4-2-2-2-formation-at-real-madrid The four players in red are the defensive block, that form the defensive foundations the 4-2-2-2 system is built on. Both defensive midfielders will protect the centre backs, and always to move together tightly, never allowing space to appear between them. You can see how the BWM and DLP will sit in front of both CB's, this is why I drew a red box around those four players. It's the foundation that this system is built upon, and is what allows for both fullbacks to act like wingbacks. The idea here is for one of the defensive midfielders to cover for the fullback that's making the attacking runs forward that will create the width for the attacking midfielders to operate in. Here is a full game against Real Madrid from 2006
  9. Ok I'm trying recreate an Athetico Madrid type system, a very robust compact type 4-4-2 that is quite defensive. So the question if you want to create a very compact 4-4-2, which very much do want that... could I make the formation very compact by setting the Line Of Engagement is much lower and the Defensive Line to be high relative to standard? Or should I not use some roles and instead use others? Like us the DLF instead of a complete forward (CF), if the latter will look to play further up the pitch, regardless of the setting that the Line Of Engagement is going off.. when weighing up the pros and cons of forwards, maybe you need a DLF and AF rather than 2 AF's for example. Can a team be attacking if they have a lower Line Of Engagement and a high defensive line?
  10. Sure I'll check them out but what I'm planning on doing is a Villarreal CF save, getting domestic and CL success. But it's very important that we play the same formation and style as the 2005/2008 Villarreal team did manage to play for a few years. So that was the story side of it.
  11. Villarreal's first goal against Atletico illustrating the flexibility of the front-four. When it comes to the success that Villarreal enjoyed under Manual Pellegrini, the partnership that Brazilian Nilmar and the Italian-American Giuseppe Rossi continued to be one of the most dangerous in Spain. The two have scored eleven of Villarreal’s nineteen goals and Rossi has shown ruthless finishing that was once missing; Nilmar, as well as scoring five goals, is joint third in the assist rankings up to this points. The attacking midfielders, also known as the interiors, played very narrow and looked to form a creative spine in the middle of the field – while the full-backs provided the width. In the past sparkling football was what the "Yellow Submarine's" were revered for. Help them play the type of football they are is midfielder Borja Valero and Santi Cazorla. An examination of Villarreal's 2-0 win over Atletico shows the resurrection of Pellegrini’s 4-2-2-2 system. As shown by the lack of goals conceded, the sturdy defensive block that makes it hard for the opposition to play through and makes a very strong defensive foundation based on a solid quartet in the defensive third. Senna, Bruno, Carlos Marchena and Gonzalo Rodriguez look to move together tightly, never allowing space to appear between them. The two defensive midfielders consist of one ball winning midfielder, who pressing is more urgent and tackling on hard and the other a deep lying play maker. Line of engagement is much lower by two, the defensive line is higher by one and the defensive width is set on zero, this makes the system is very compact both vertically and horizontally. Also when the line of engagement is crossed the pressing intensity is set on more urgent and the wide players are set for pressing to be very urgent, whilst the pressing for the central players is set on regular. But from time to time, when we are playing a team at home that we really should beat - I will counter-press and put the line of engagement a lot higher towards the opponents box. Here you can see how the BWM and DLP will sit in front of both CB's, this is why I drew a red box around those four players. It's the foundation that this system is built upon, and is what allows for both fullbacks to act like wingbacks. The idea here is for one of the defensive midfielders to cover for the fullback that's making the attacking runs forward that will create the width for the attacking midfielders to operate in. When the team is transitioning from defence to attack, the attacking midfielders operate in the spaces between the wider areas of the pitch and more central areas using very fluid horizontal attacking movement but during the defensive phase they slot into to the wide midfield positions of a compact defensive 4-4-2 shape and focuses on heavily pressing the wider areas. This system requires the attacking midfielders to act as play makers positioned in the half spaces, creating havoc in the spaces between the opponents central midfielders and traditional wingers. But when the ball is lost, the 4-2-2-2 system drops back into a very compact defensive 4-4-2 shape and those attacking midfielders become the wide midfielders. The same is true of the attacking fullbacks, they position themselves in the back four and heavily press the wider areas. This means that when the have the ball, both attacking fullbacks to make forward tuns and creating width but have clear defensive roles within the team once the possession of the ball is lost to the opposition.
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