tarzanofmars
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Posts posted by tarzanofmars
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15 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:
Kindly reminder that you need to be uploading PKMs in a bugs thread. The first thing any SI QA or dev is going to ask for when they come across this thread is a PKM, all the theories in the world be of little use to them, so if you want them to take a look at anything that's where you start
So they want PKMs that show an absence of something? It is self evident if they start up any new game on their own. I've put in a lot of free hours over the years helping them fix their game. I would normally charge $40 an hour for that. Sort it out SI.
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Last night playing as Stuttgart, I won 4-0, but all the goals came from corners. I never use play for set pieces btw.
I won 25 corners total; 26 crosses blocked, 20 went out for a corner. The other 6 stayed in play. The other 5 corners were from deflected shots.
20 corners from wide players driving to the byline, against all instruction and traits, and smashing it into the defender a foot away.
This was a standard 4-3-3, positive, high press and cross deep, cross early instruction for team.0 -
4 hours ago, FreezingTable said:
Winger are pretty much useless when the wingbacks are so overpowered with the ball. But it’s very frustrating when wingers or wingbacks don’t cross the way the TI says.
I know what you are trying to say, but WBs are not overpowered, they're just as useless as anybody else in a wide position, well, except for winning corners over and over. If you use WBs and use the overlap instruction the winger will always come inside or hold the ball up for the WBs. Set your WBs to defend or use individual instructions to have them stay behind the wingers, set your wingers to stay and run wide etc.
Regardless of who is highest up on the wing, they will dribble towards the byline and smash it into the nearest defender for a corner. No amount of player traits+team instruction+player instruction will stop this hard coded repetitive event from happening.1 -
That cross by TAA to assist Liverpool's 4th was an early cross on floor from deep.
NEVER HAPPENS IN FM and apparently isn't a bug.
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On 02/12/2020 at 05:57, Josh Brimacombe-Wiard said:Hi All,
We are aware of this in studio and it is under review.
Thank you for your examples we will use these in our investigation.
Cheers,
Josh
This has been an issue since somewhere around the Upper Paleolithic Epoch. It was acknowledged as an issue sometime in the early Industrial Era.
Far too many crosses are blocked period, but yes too many go to corners. The core issue is the crossing player hits the ball right into the defender directly in front of him 99.99% of the time, as if 'Play for Set Pieces' is in effect at all times.
Wide play and crossing remain the biggest immersion killer for the FM series.16 -
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For those that think it happens in the 3D match, prove it with video, and that means instructions set to early crossing and player instructions set to deep crossing, cross more and I want to see it happen multiple times in one match in the 3D engine. Even once and I'll be impressed.
Many teams use early and deep crossing as a major element of their tactics, but we cannot replicate that in FM, never have been able to.The last two years during beta, an early cross would happen occasionally. As soon as the full release update came out, boom, it's gone. I do not have proof of this, but myself and several others I know have experienced this. We were looking for the frequency and types of crosses from the start and noticed a change. This could mean it was directly tweaked or is a 2nd or 3rd order effect of some other changes between beta and full release.
My theory is that the SI ME code crew are well aware of this issue, and they use beta to see how allowing early (and more realistic crossing overall) crossing will affect the score lines. I think they are unable to get the defenders to defend good enough and aggressive enough to keep early crossing from running the scores up, based on data analysis they only have access to, not because I saw anything like a 100% scoring rate in beta from it. Again, this is a theory that has arisen from the issue not being dealt with.
This is the only team and player instruction that is uniformly ignored at all levels of the game, semi-pro to EPL.
To clarify for anyone that doesn't know what an early or deep cross is, it is a cross played from a wide position into the box, generally into the 6 yard box or the far post area, high or low, that is a ahead of the defensive line (early) and is played well before the crossing player is alongside the 18 yard box (deep). This is a cross that uses curve and swing and is harder to defend as the defender is facing and moving towards his own goal, and it's harder to execute for the crosser, but by no means is crossing early or from deep beyond the ability of the average Sunday league (accuracy, curl and pace of the cross is greatly increased as player level increases naturally), and it is seen in virtually any game of football played at a professional level. These types of balls are even played at the semi-pro and youth levels, it is not uncommon.
Except in FM.
PKMs: I could upload all 60 plus season PKM's from multiple teams/seasons so you can see it doesn't happen, or you could fire up a new game, any league, any team and see it doesn't occur.
Importance:
Crossing from deep, especially when crossing early, towards the penalty spot area, is the second highest effective type of cross, behind only crossing from within the 18 yard box or within a yard of the 18 yard box, towards the penalty spot.
I've brought this up before (this is the first FM21 mention) and have never seen a response from SI development staff. At this point it'd be better to hear SI just confirm: "Yes we have reduced its appearance because it causes high score lines" or something.
Many ME improvements have been made since last year's debacle, but there still remain some huge gaps between FM 3D match engine and realism.
(Fair warning for those who are happy with their level of immersion and haven't paid attention to early and deep crossing: What has been seen cannot be unseen. You will start noticing how often it occurs when watching real footy and how it never occurs in FM)
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21 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:
not to mention playing that type of intensity for 90 minutes multiple times a week should result in some major condition issues going into the second game for the week. It should be pretty much be suicide playing that football with a semi pro team who only practice 2-3 times a week. Not the case currently.
What should actually happen is those players simply do not press after a point because they don't have the legs, it should also reduce the amount of runs made and their defensive work rate should drop off, all this should occur before condition issues for any but the most determined and fit players at the semi-pro and lower league levels.
High intensity pressing is very effective and has been before the evolution into gegenpressing, but the rate/level at which it must be executed to achieve that effectiveness should not be available to lower league/skill teams long term because of fitness and quality of players available.
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Just go ahead and remove the 'Cross Early' instruction illusion. I don't believe there is any such function written into the match engine code.
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2 hours ago, Roncatto99 said:
It really is boring to watch 30+ shots to score 1 goal yet the CPU has 2 shots to score.
That's been going on for 20 years. Will never change.
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On 16/10/2020 at 07:18, PoeticOtter said:
But wide players will still get to the byline and smash it into the side netting, goalkeepers will never get a rating above 7, CB's long ball ability will be OP, 1v1s will happen often but rarely converted and strikers will shoot rather than picking a better pass option.
Wide players will also smash it into the defender right beside them over any other option, and if they get into the box with no opponent near them and all they need to do is square to a teammate, they will pass it backwards out of the box or dribble to the corner post and shoot at said corner post.
Whose a betting man? I have real money that says these things will still happen.2 -
Liverpool fan here, rumor has it that Milner may rejoin Leeds after we win the PL (yes I'm saying we will win it now, held off until last week haha), can't blame him. Just as long as we get him back as a 1st team or academy coach when he retires
So there's a good transfer for you.Would love to see Leeds and Forest come up, hope you two don't have to face each other in playoffs.
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Apparently FM 2020 is just not going to be unable to get this one right.
I have not played since the end of December until tonight, though I had been playing and actively giving feedback since beta day 1 till then. I'm 46 and have been playing this game since the very first release of CM and this one has been the most frustrating ME I can remember, maybe because you can see the next level of immersion just over the hill and out of reach.Here is an example of what I have been talking about. (I had to crop it down and record it playing in the media player to get it down from 4K to get under the 9MB limit for the post)
It crashed not long after this, first crash I've had in FM 2020 (posted .dmp in bug forums)
First off, thank you for continuing to try to improve the ME.
Various Match Engine (version 2039) changes including (but not limited to):
- Improved one-on-one finishing
- Recalculations regarding clear-cut chances
- Tweaks to penalty kick conversion rates
- Lowered frequency of players overrunning ball and losing possession
- Improved realism of player recoveries from slide tackles
- Improved crossing variation and instruction behaviour - You're having a laugh on this one mate!
- Improved defensive tracking from long balls
- Improved heading accuracy
- Improvements/tweaks to referee behaviour
- Throw-in positional adjustments
- Various other balancing tweaks/improvementsYou know what is crazy? The best I have ever seen FM behavior from these positions was in the very first beta release of 2020! Yet the very first patch changed it and they went back to smashing into the nearest defender. Why????
Look at the acres of space Mo and Trent have to go past and then cross, or drop the shoulder and drive in past them. Never will they do it, never. And then the Inter defender slide tackling his teammate for a corner kick. No words on that.
Especially Trent here when he picks the ball up, he's already at pace and the defender just gifts him the space beyond him with his poor initial movement, but oooh nooo Trent is already winding up for a blast, perfectly timed to HIT THE DEFENDER. My 11 year old nephew would've skipped right past that defender having read the space, the speed of everything happening and the options, seriously.This isn't like an bizarre heliacal event that is hard to track down, fire the game up, play with two IF/RMD/IW and tell them to cut inside, or not, to sit narrower, or not, shoot more often, or not, cross more or less, or not, cross low, pre-match talk- cross low, individual personal instructions- cross low, and they will never cross low, or none of the former, and any other combination of instructions (channels, get forward, have a bevvy) and they just continue to blast the ball into the first defender that gets near them. They will even wait until they get close and then smash it into them.
I am using Liverpool not only because they are my team IRL (since '96!) but that they are the simply the best team on the planet at the moment. If I was using Rangers or Stuttgart (my other saves) one could use the 'the players just aren't that good' argument.
You can use the slider and go frame by frame since I rerecorded it at 30fps and you can see the defender begin his slide tackle before Salah begins his cross attempt, so Mo should have easily skipped past him. Or, has the game already calculated that Salah will cross and the defender gets the jump on him by being able to 'see the future'?
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I stopped playing back in Dec 29th when I posted this https://community.sigames.com/topic/509712-why-was-the-we-are-aware-of-it-and-we-are-working-on-it-issue-with-wide-attacking-players-not-mentioned-in-the-me-state-of-the-union-post/?tab=comments#comment-12202608
So I was excited to see a patch today and mentions of gameplay improvements. I didn't get to make it far enough to evaluate unfortunately (though I saw the same terrible wide play as before in what I did see, but Origi finished his 1v1 chance)
To reiterate this is my very first match with the latest patch
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Just in case some didn't follow the title, the issues with players attacking the box from wide areas were acknowledged and at the forefront of ME discussions when I went away from the game earlier this month after having worked on helping to fix ME issues since day one of the early beta release. After seeing nothing change in regards to the behavior of wide players and attacking the box, I took a break. Hence why I've just seen the post about the match engine from Neil Brock. I was quite gutted to see no mention of this problem.
Is it still aware of and still being worked on?I am aware that there is a huge problem of the long defense splitting balls causing people a hard time, and an issue with 1v1's and those seem to have pushed the wide player issue to the back. I do want those fixed, but I found a solution in my first match for the long defense splitting ball, by setting the 'out of possession' defensive width to 'narrow'. Temporary fix which completely negates the problem, and most other defensive issues as well. Which should tell the ME team that they need to work on the default behavior and positional stance of the CBs.
What cannot be fixed by any combination of instructions, roles and player style is that when players attack the box from the right or left they never, ever cut across the box into the glaringly obvious gaps between defenders, even if there are no defenders, they never hit a first time cross from outside, they never hit a low cross from outside nor do they square to ball to the open player or zip it across the face of goal on the floor to a player at the back post, they never shoot with their left foot if coming in from the right, like Salah, they never ever have attempted to curl one to the far post like he does, or visa versa from the left side, they do none of the things that skillful wide attacking players in modern football do. At all, ever, no exaggeration.
Just come out and say that the match engine and/or the developers working on it are simply unable to recreate these behaviors and I will take that. Look, you can only do what the technology allows or what your skill/knowledge allows.If that is not the case then I do not want to see this issue dropped.
In regards to needing PKMs for this issue, you can't recreate it yourselves? Or you don't know what to look for? I've already shared a number, but if you still can't figure it out or if it was forgotten about, I will help once more, but only if something is going to actually be done about it.
I'm not sure where the disconnect is with these problems. I really do not have the time to make a video of players from the EPL, the Championship, the SPL, the Bundesliga, the MLS, etc, driving into gaps between defenders and shooting at the far post, low and high, videos where they never ever are seen driving straight at the corner post of the goal and shooting at that post. If someone feels like doing that video, maybe that's what we need the team at SI to see.
Maybe they don't watch that much football? Maybe they've never played at any type of competitive level? I don't know, we know nothing about the SI match engine team.
I don't want to come across the wrong way, but what level of football understanding do we need to approach this with? Keep in mind, everything I say about the ME comes from a hands on 'comprehensive' viewing style of gameplay. I micromanage opposition instructions in the bigger matches, I even watch the full match from the 65th-70th minute if I need a goal. I turned losing 1-0 at Old Trafford in the 63rd minute into a 1-3 win for LFC that way and that was very satisfying... however I had to do it with Salah playing as a striker, because he is dead weight as an IF/IW/W/RMD on the right side in the current match engine.
I've seen too many people hop on the threads about ME issues and it turns out they're key and text only players who enjoy playing to 2029 by next Saturday. The stats you see of player X and player Y at the end of one of these types of games never matches up with what those players actually do in a comprehensive or full match viewing.
So yeah, is this issue going to be worked on?
Thanks for reading.5 -
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2 minutes ago, FrazT said:The OP raised the issue and included an example to assist the developers- if you would like this issue looked at, then please all do the same.
@tarzanofmars I have edited out your language so please lets have no more like that.
I didn't think the language was an issue because it is automatically edited out as soon as you post it, didn't think anyone could see it? It instantly appears as ***** as soon as you hit post. Anyway I did not intend to cause an issue over language and I wouldn't want it to be an excuse to ignore the issues with the match engine that have remained broken since day one of the beta release.
It comes from frustration and disappointment.
In fact the issue has actually regressed to the state of FM19, I suspect out of the developers not wanting to spend anymore time trying to correct it, which I hope I'm wrong about. I am not motivated to help SI fix a game they made, when I've have already tried and nothing, I repeat, nothing I've shown them, has changed or improved.
I have upload so many PKM's, beginning the week the beta was released, for naught. I've uploaded PKMs on the forum and in PMs to moderators, and have written specific, detailed descriptions of what is wrong.Every post and PKM was specifically about attacking players behavior in the box, including squaring it. Heck, I've never even seen a ball squared from the far right or left to another player across the box. Squared means on the floor, I suspect the ME does not know how to cross low. I've never seen a low cross played despite all my tactics instructing them and all my tactic briefings demanding them. Everything goes into the air. Even when on 'whipped crosses' instructions 99.99% of them are Raheem Sterling floaters.
I know the ME can play a whipped ball because you see them on free kicks, so what is the problem getting it to put that on the grass?
The only improvement I've seen is that occasionally you do see players playing long balls through or over the middle, fantastic, the ME now mimics more than pig in the middle passing, but that was not one of my PKM issues, I have constantly wanted to see, for a perfect example, Salah play like Salah when he gets the ball at his feet just outside the box.
(I've been giving advice to newer players who are getting killed by the long through ball and that advice, which is the only thing that works is, only play with your defending set to maximum narrow, ignore your assistant manager, set every formation to narrow defending and it's sorted. Is that the way it's supposed to be?
The unrealistic decisions of attacking players in and around the box, shooting at impossible angles, especially with the weaker foot, despite 2 or 3 better options, shooting straight at the corner post, no one scoring in a 1v1, left-footed players cutting in at the worst possible angle from the right and never shooting with their strong foot, same on the left side with right footed players, it's all been acknowledged, I've been told and have seen others told, a month ago, that 'we are aware of it and are working on it'.I took a 2 week break from the game, during which FM 2020 was updated several times with 'small' 300MB patches and the end result is that all of these problems still exist.
If you go back you will see one of my first posts very happily applauded the fact that wide players smashing the ball into the first defender that gets near them instead of, well anything else, (something we've had to deal with for years now) seemed to be a thing of the past. WB/FBs and W/IF/RMD actually played the ball short or worked to get a cross in. Now it's gone! They've gone back to doing exactly what they did in FM 19! Why? Was that the only way to stop FBs/WBs scoring too much? I didn't have that problem btw, Trent Arnold actually got a few goals instead of none.
I wasn't joking about not playing as my favorite team anymore, it requires too much suspension of disbelief and loss of immersion to play an entire season and never see Mohammed Salah cut in from the right hand side and shoot with his left foot once. Or I could just use the 4-3-3 where you don't have any wide players and Salah and Mane both sit in the hole behind Firmino and I make Trent and Andy sit in the midfield like Guardiola's backs do. Yay.
I started out motivated to help SI fix their game, but no one listened and all I got was a snarky mod response in PM, 'I'm sorry this is the worst version of FM you've ever played' when I had never said that. I might now however.9 -
Try playing your season in comprehensive mode, the ME will do your head in. I can longer play with Liverpool, I'm playing as Stuttgart in Bundesliga 2, just so all the poor decisions by attacking players, especially attacking from wide areas are more believable.
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This has been doing my head in, its like the value of each point of agility has been massively reduced making players not be able to stop a ball and stay on it even while jogging. I'm glad others have posted pkms because frankly I got burned out trying to help get the behavior of wide players to be remotely realistic when attacking around and inside the box only to see it revert to the way it was in FM19 where they just simply smash the ball into the first defender that gets near them.
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It won't happen until they fix the behavior of wide attacking players. Or unless you play him as a striker in a 4-2-3-1.
Note, there is massive difference in what a player in any position will do when you simulate matches and/or play them at high speed at 'key' or 'text' only settings versus watching and actually managing every match on 'comprehensive'. I can give you 3 tactic packages custom made for Liverpool that will see you out-shoot opponents 30-40 -1 and outscore them 3-1 all the way to the title, but Salah, or any wide attacking player won't score near to what they do IRL (using formations that accurately mimic Klopp's 3 major systems) if you watch every single match on 'comprehensive'.
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I've been waiting for something like this for a long time, surprised they haven't introduced this in some way.
There certainly needs to be a set of instructions for when your team does not have the ball, 1 for when it's in their half, 1 for in yours, and a set of instructions when your team has the ball in your half and one in their half.
In transitions it is not needed, during transitions is when players are transitioning from one formation and mentality to another.
I'd like to see a hardcore mode where there is less control over the players and the team once the game has started. Everything has to be shouts and hand signals after that, things that can be realistically expressed to players playing in a loud stadium. Passing a short handwritten note is the most detailed it can get.
Currently one can change every position/player specific micro-instruction for all 11 players at one time, that's 40-50 instructions made by a manager on the touchline!
Changing between 3 known and practiced and memorized formations is realistic, and adding the additional 'when in possession in our half/in theirs' and a 'when not in possession in their half/ours' would just require a little more work.
I'd also like to see a greater level of control over pressing instructions (pregame and at the half) using the formation map on the tactic screen.0 -
15 hours ago, kevhamster said:
Waiting for the Scottish Pyramid database that MozzaPlays is working on because he's awesome.
What's this? ^^^
RE OP: I lost interest in my Liverpool save despite winning all my games so far because of the IF/WB behavior, but after but one day off I started a Ranger's save today after the patch and saw improvement, plus saw staff posting letting us know they are aware of our issues and have obviously worked on them, so I'm back on board determined to help.
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I sent three PKMs yesterday via a moderator about this.
Here's the thing, you guys at SI should just fire up a game and use inside forwards/attack, cut inside/shoot more often and WBs with attack instructions and watch the match on comprehensive and you will see this happen over and over. I lose count in a match.
Also, left footed IF on the right side ie Salah, will never, ever take a shot with their strong (left only even) foot, they will drive to the corner of the goal and shoot with weaker foot or they dump it off outside the box killing the move. TAA as wingback does the same thing all the time. For some reason the IF left side player never even gets into the box, he passes before hand 90% of the time, but drives to the end line before entering the box if he tries.
Also no one will cross early, even when set to defend, cross deep and double instructed to cross early, they just keep dribbling all the way to the end line, then do the stop-start stutter step until they run out of space.
I'm about to take a break for awhile and change my review on Steam because I am not enjoying the matches, and I'm undefeated in the league with the best goal difference by far, but the immersion is gone.0 -
I always get one or two in the first ten minutes, current match going on and I picked up one at 1 minute 4 seconds
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Yep, AM R/L and FB/WB R/L drive to end line and shoot at post or net no matter what instructions or role, doing my head in, among other things
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4 hours ago, 99 said:
Before giving any praise, I check the Interactions menu in their profiles to see what was the last time I talked to them. And I won't talk to them two times in the same month. Be it praise of training, game performance or whatever. Just one per month. And this never happens.
Nice workaround that hopefully you soon won't have to do anymore
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Early Crossing non-existent once again. Is it even written into the code? I've never seen it.
in Match Engine - AI and Tactics
Posted
So, are you saying that on your games, players are crossing from deep and early?