How to play against Newcastle's 4-2-4 formation?

[cappaj]

Can anyone help with some advice on playing against a 424 system?

I played a 433 Gegenpress.

They demolished my team of mostly 4 star players.

They mostly used their outside players to cross into the box to score.

But it was woeful performance from my team of Manchester United.

 

Heatmap for reference, Newcastle at home.

[Cloud9]

22 minutes ago, cappaj said:

Can anyone help with some advice on playing against a 424 system?

I played a 433 Gegenpress.

They demolished my team of mostly 4 star players.

They mostly used their outside players to cross into the box to score.

But it was woeful performance from my team of Manchester United.

 

Heatmap for reference, Newcastle at home.

The stars are only relative to your squad and can be heavily misleading to actual player quality / how they fit your tactics (registration rules, positions played, and form also influence them).

If you post your tactic itself, I can give you some tips on dealing with a 4-2-4. Perhaps you could reference Newcastle's first group stage match vs PSG in the Champions League this year? PSG set up with a 4-2-4 and a high pressing 4-3-3 from Newcastle was able to easily overwhelm the pivot and isolate the front players.

[NineCloudNine]

Based only on that heatmap your wide players and striker are isolated and your midfield are all doing similar things. Newcastle are much more structured.

I have found that you have to force a midfield three to make space, by giving one a DM strata holding/defend role and one a CM strata attack/creative role. Especially if you have a high line/press compacting the play.

[cappaj]

On 08/03/2024 at 19:02, Cloud9 said:

The stars are only relative to your squad and can be heavily misleading to actual player quality / how they fit your tactics (registration rules, positions played, and form also influence them).

If you post your tactic itself, I can give you some tips on dealing with a 4-2-4. Perhaps you could reference Newcastle's first group stage match vs PSG in the Champions League this year? PSG set up with a 4-2-4 and a high pressing 4-3-3 from Newcastle was able to easily overwhelm the pivot and isolate the front players.

I see so the starts had nothing really to do with what happened in that game then.

Here is the tactic.

 

And the team.

[cappaj]

On 08/03/2024 at 19:04, NineCloudNine said:

Based only on that heatmap your wide players and striker are isolated and your midfield are all doing similar things. Newcastle are much more structured.

I have found that you have to force a midfield three to make space, by giving one a DM strata holding/defend role and one a CM strata attack/creative role. Especially if you have a high line/press compacting the play.

Interesting, was reading a post about positional play and how the roles and strata's effect it. It's all new to me so getting used to those concepts.

You say one a defend role and one an attack role. what about the third?

So with my previous post showing my tactics above what can you tell me?

Edited March 9 by cappaj

[NineCloudNine]

What are you trying to achieve by using a Libero and 2xIWB?

[cappaj]

38 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

What are you trying to achieve by using a Libero and 2xIWB?

Libero bringing ball out into midfield when space and 2 iwb to pack out mid field when positions ahead have moved up and for extra passing options

[NineCloudNine]

39 minutes ago, cappaj said:

Libero bringing ball out into midfield when space and 2 iwb to pack out mid field when positions ahead have moved up and for extra passing options

That leaves one defender back, with all your midfielders and temporary midfielders roaming around, a very high line, your keeper rushing out and wide attackers who don't defend much.

A smart opponent would go wide, bypassing your cluttered midfield and exploiting the wide open spaces which you're trying to cover with one defender.

You have a fantastic team that either cost you £500m or you built in the editor, so it might just work, especially since the AI struggles against overwhelming attacking numbers. Newcastle's 4 fast and wide attackers seem to have found that weakness though!

Edited March 9 by NineCloudNine

[Cloud9]

7 hours ago, cappaj said:

I see so the starts had nothing really to do with what happened in that game then.

Hm so your tactic will smash opponents who sit back against you and try to defend. However, if another high quality team brings the game back to you, you'll be in real trouble. Almost everyone is going forward in your tactic which is a huge ask for Tchouameni. 

Fortunately, @Rashidi just published this article which directly addresses the issues your experiencing (in why you're so exposed at the back when the ball turns over).

A quick breakdown of the defensive issues:

• The IF(a) are basically pure strikers (bringing you to a count of 3), they'll stay high and participate very little out of possession and struggle to link up with the rest of the team. I would recommend 2 primary goalscorers in a tactic as a good baseline, so mixing up the frontline would help.
• Your solo 6 Tchouameni will get pulled out of position as a solo BWM(d), try him on a DM(s)!
• Costa is a great distributer of the ball, I'd let him do his thing rather than tell him to pass it short to the centers every time. This can be esp useful against a committed attack like a 4-2-4 that will be vulnerable in transition.
• MEZ(s) is probably a little hampering on your star boy Jude, I would prefer him in a role that game him a little more license to do his thing. A true BBM is tough to find and Jude can definitely do that for you. 
• I usually like a CM(a) with height on him, who can attack the box aggressively with the role. I might suggest giving Fernandes a role to create from, rather than adding another goal scorer.
  • Fun fact on Bruno: Apparently all the commentators say his name wrong even though he sends them a video on how to pronounce Fernandes (Fer-Nanj) in Portuguese at the start of each season  Usually once you start to play well, the pundits learn your name (Broja becoming Bro-Ha, Mitoma becoming Me-Toe-Ma etc.), but unfortunately for him he seems to be the exception to the rule. 
• IWB(s) + IWB(a) + Libero(s) sounds like fun! But I think vs a team who can punch your weight, you're going to get a bloody nose. In these big games try dropping the IWB(a) and IWB(s) for two IFB(d). That gives you an extremely solid base for your team to go out and play in front of. I would also consider running just two of those roles at most, even against easy opponents. Leaving just one guy to hold the fort still leaves you vulnerable to a counter attack.

W/ a 4-3-3 against a 4-2-4 though, you can pin them back and overwhelm the pivot. Sorting the roles as I've detailed above so you have less goal scorers will help with this. This will isolate the front 4 and you can boss the game from there. W/just the Libero that's 4 vs 2 in the midfield so playing so targeting those players in the OIs and playing through the midfield will be a field day. The IFBs will cover you if they do get out, but w/Tchouameni's height as a DM as well you'll be well covered. I'd want one of the IFB's to be proper Kyle Walker rapid if possible. 

Edited March 10 by Cloud9

[Rashidi]

Cant really see the roles and duties in the tactic, those team instructions are just going to give the ball away against  a 424. Even a system like mine could tear your 433 apart and this is my route one football tactic,  it was modelled off what I thought was a tactic used by some of the AI teams in the game.  All it does is wait for you to lose the ball. And if your system ever passes the ball back because it found one of its passing routes blocked then its vulnerable. So how does a 433 not concede, it doesn't lose the ball in transition. Strange that others are talking like you have provided roles and duties, yet I can't see  them. Maybe I am blind.

[Dr Naysay]

22 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Cant really see the roles and duties in the tactic, those team instructions are just going to give the ball away against  a 424. Even a system like mine could tear your 433 apart and this is my route one football tactic,  it was modelled off what I thought was a tactic used by some of the AI teams in the game.  All it does is wait for you to lose the ball. And if your system ever passes the ball back because it found one of its passing routes blocked then its vulnerable. So how does a 433 not concede, it doesn't lose the ball in transition. Strange that others are talking like you have provided roles and duties, yet I can't see  them. Maybe I am blind.

They are on the right side of his team/formation pic. I was also confused at first.

[Rashidi]

2 minutes ago, Dr Naysay said:

They are on the right side of his team/formation pic. I was also confused at first.

I was blind.

 

You have a 1-4 buildout, with a defender sitting deep and two inverted wingbacks moving into the DM tier, so your rest defence is primed to allow the AI to attack you down the flanks. And with you playing pass into space on direct passing, you have a high chance of screwing things up. Your transitions are probably breaking down in the latter midfield phase just when you are about to break out and score. You might be able to get away with it against weak sides, but any team playing the system I was linking will eat your 433 up alive.

[cappaj]

10 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Hm so your tactic will smash opponents who sit back against you and try to defend. However, if another high quality team brings the game back to you, you'll be in real trouble. Almost everyone is going forward in your tactic which is a huge ask for Tchouameni. 

Fortunately, @Rashidi just published this article which directly addresses the issues your experiencing (in why you're so exposed at the back when the ball turns over).

A quick breakdown of the defensive issues:

• The IF(a) are basically pure strikers (bringing you to a count of 3), they'll stay high and participate very little out of possession and struggle to link up with the rest of the team. I would recommend 2 primary goalscorers in a tactic as a good baseline, so mixing up the frontline would help.
• Your solo 6 Tchouameni will get pulled out of position as a solo BWM(d), try him on a DM(s)!
• Costa is a great distributer of the ball, I'd let him do his thing rather than tell him to pass it short to the centers every time. This can be esp useful against a committed attack like a 4-2-4 that will be vulnerable in transition.
• MEZ(s) is probably a little hampering on your star boy Jude, I would prefer him in a role that game him a little more license to do his thing. A true BBM is tough to find and Jude can definitely do that for you. 
• I usually like a CM(a) with height on him, who can attack the box aggressively with the role. I might suggest giving Fernandes a role to create from, rather than adding another goal scorer.
  • Fun fact on Bruno: Apparently all the commentators say his name wrong even though he sends them a video on how to pronounce Fernandes (Fer-Nanj) in Portuguese at the start of each season  Usually once you start to play well, the pundits learn your name (Broja becoming Bro-Ha, Mitoma becoming Me-Toe-Ma etc.), but unfortunately for him he seems to be the exception to the rule. 
• IWB(s) + IWB(a) + Libero(s) sounds like fun! But I think vs a team who can punch your weight, you're going to get a bloody nose. In these big games try dropping the IWB(a) and IWB(s) for two IFB(d). That gives you an extremely solid base for your team to go out and play in front of. I would also consider running just two of those roles at most, even against easy opponents. Leaving just one guy to hold the fort still leaves you vulnerable to a counter attack.

W/ a 4-3-3 against a 4-2-4 though, you can pin them back and overwhelm the pivot. Sorting the roles as I've detailed above so you have less goal scorers will help with this. This will isolate the front 4 and you can boss the game from there. W/just the Libero that's 4 vs 2 in the midfield so playing so targeting those players in the OIs and playing through the midfield will be a field day. The IFBs will cover you if they do get out, but w/Tchouameni's height as a DM as well you'll be well covered. I'd want one of the IFB's to be proper Kyle Walker rapid if possible. 

 

Brilliant! I had this article open ready to read and been watching his Youtube videos lol.

As for this guidance, it all makes sense and i have been doing things a bit skew whiff not understanding roles enough.

how about this?

[cappaj]

7 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I was blind.

 

You have a 1-4 buildout, with a defender sitting deep and two inverted wingbacks moving into the DM tier, so your rest defence is primed to allow the AI to attack you down the flanks. And with you playing pass into space on direct passing, you have a high chance of screwing things up. Your transitions are probably breaking down in the latter midfield phase just when you are about to break out and score. You might be able to get away with it against weak sides, but any team playing the system I was linking will eat your 433 up alive.

This is exactly what was happened. before getting to final third id lose the ball and they would counter out to the wings and back into the box.

Where can i read more about the 1-4 buildout?>

[Cloud9]

10 hours ago, cappaj said:

 

Brilliant! I had this article open ready to read and been watching his Youtube videos lol.

As for this guidance, it all makes sense and i have been doing things a bit skew whiff not understanding roles enough.

how about this?

This looks great, I think you'd want to look at your roles on your 8's in the setup though. DLP(s) comes w/hold position, so usually I would avoid such a role for an 8 who you want to link up a bit with the frontline. 

In a midfield 3 I generally look to have a creative element, an enforcer element, and a one that covers space via running. That's not always the case (as in a gegenpressing midfield 3 where it's mostly just an engine room), but it works well as a starting blue print.

• W/Tchouameni as a 6, you've got a great enforcer to hold the fort. Bellingham can do everything which is unique, so putting him in a BBM role like I mentioned will give you all three in one. If not I'd recommend an attack role for him as one of your best player's where he can be more free to go and do some damage. AP(s) for Bruno should be work fine. Both of those roles can trigger rotations.

Edited March 11 by Cloud9

[cappaj]

15 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

This looks great, I think you'd want to look at your roles on your 8's in the setup though. DLP(s) comes w/hold position, so usually I would avoid such a role for an 8 who you want to link up a bit with the frontline. 

In a midfield 3 I generally look to have a creative element, an enforcer element, and a one that covers space via running. That's not always the case (as in a gegenpressing midfield 3 where it's mostly just an engine room), but it works well as a starting blue print.

• W/Tchouameni as a 6, you've got a great enforcer to hold the fort. Bellingham can do everything which is unique, so putting him in a BBM role like I mentioned will give you all three in one. If not I'd recommend an attack role for him as one of your best player's where he can be more free to go and do some damage. AP(s) for Bruno should be work fine. Both of those roles can trigger rotations.

That DLP was Pape Matar Sarr as that's his best role, when Bellingham plays it will be BBM for sure. AP(s) on Fernandes i think works best for him. 

I have a question for defence, instead of Libero would BPD work beside a central defender with two IFB?

[Dr Naysay]

1 hour ago, cappaj said:

That DLP was Pape Matar Sarr as that's his best role, when Bellingham plays it will be BBM for sure. AP(s) on Fernandes i think works best for him. 

I have a question for defence, instead of Libero would BPD work beside a central defender with two IFB?

It doesn't matter what the game tells you his best role is, it matters what his attributes are to the role you want him to play. I know nothing about Sarr on FM24 but I could fully envison him being a really well rounded midfielder who could play most midfield roles really well. 

You need to move away from finding roles to suit your players within a system you want to play  and focus on finding roles too suit your tactic because you have some phenomenal talent that can not only play various roles withing a certain position but they can also play multiple positions.

 

Edited March 11 by Dr Naysay

[Cloud9]

23 hours ago, cappaj said:

That DLP was Pape Matar Sarr as that's his best role, when Bellingham plays it will be BBM for sure. AP(s) on Fernandes i think works best for him. 

I have a question for defence, instead of Libero would BPD work beside a central defender with two IFB?

Yea the highlighted attributes are just a basic guide provided by the game, but a player will use all of his attributes to play the position. I'd recommend following @Dr Naysay advice on that front. 

You could do that! But a BPD doesn't trigger a rotation like a Libero does, so you don't need the IFB to cover for him in the same way. I do like a BPD w/dribble more on him. 

I'd consider reading this post on the Libero that was just posted, a Libero(d) might be a better compromise in what you're looking for.