Lyssien
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Posts posted by Lyssien
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I do prefer the non-slider approach that SI took from FM13 as that old system was an exercise in min/max'ing & was ripe for user training exploits whereas the latest offerings at least attempt to present some of the issues with managing the development of 25 or more professional footballers plus another 20 or so youth footballers but it does need fleshing out.
The sliders approach was my idea. It made sense back then, because the tactical module worked with sliders as well (that's where I got the idea from). I think it succeeded in allowing more gamers to work with it, as a lot of people were lost with the pig-in-the-middle approach.
But I agree, training can do with a rethink.
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I think it mostly confusing to us who have been around for several versions and seen all sorts of things with it.
Could be. Or maybe it is confusing because it does not allow tampering with things that one would logically expect to tamper with (workload). But yes, due to former experience it is hard to know what exactly is the case.
For me I liked the FM2005 deal where you assigned piggy in the middle, shadow play etc. because it resembled what we really do on the training pitch.Oh man, I hated it. It was too opaque for me, and for most others as I recall. To each his own, I guess.
It took me a bit to get used to (I had exactly the same questions you did when I first got my hands on it), but after getting used to it, I am finding that the new way hasn't really negatively affected my player development methods. It has made it easier in that I simply assign a role, any extras, and let the game handle the workload aspect. What would be great is a more detailed module that could be turned off for those that don't care for it. The suggestion has been put into the pipeline, but who knows what will come of it.You know, the problem with FM training was never its complexity (eg, compared to the tactical module), it was always the presentation of information. From what I see, I think SI have missed this point entirely. Provided I can afford the time, I may be back with a detailed proposal for training after I play the game for a while.
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So it is much simpler than before and you cant customize it to the degree you could.
Cheers, Dr Hook! Good to see you still here.
What is the story behind this decision, did it come from SI initially or did the community campaign for it? I am very -VERY- disappointed with this.
I don't understand it either, does SI really believe that people who get easily overwhelmed will find training simpler now? It is actually more confusing than it used to be.
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Hi all!
After missing FM15, I am trying to get into FM16 now. I am a bit confused with training workload at the moment. Here are my questions:
1) In the default skin, where is the option to set the intensity of individual training? Has it been streamlined out of the game or is it somewhere and I don't see it?
2) In the default skin, do we get information on the percentage of time devoted to each training element for a player? (eg, individual training, ppm, team training etc)
In FM14 we used to see bars explaining everything about workload, but now I don't see such a thing.
3) In the default skin, training workload for each player is shown on 2 different screens. a) In training->individual training->player, and b) in squad->player->develpment->training. Are these both !TOTAL! workload for each player or (TOTAL-TEAM TRAINING)?
No matter what I do with team training workload, the above workloads are always MEDIUM for every player, so I am confused about what they take into account.
Thanks. We have several screens full of overwhelming information on training, so I 'll be very disappointed if I can't customize training as much i used to in older versions.
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I can't get it.
Can someone help me?Personality: Ambitious
MHS: Outspoken
Det: 2
Its fairly straight forward.His ambitious personality tells you that: Ambition is between 16 & 19, Loyalty between 1 & 9 and Determination between 1 & 17 (We know its 2).
His MHS tells you that: Temperament is between 7 & 20 and Controversy is between 15 & 20.
Doesn't really tell you that much tbh.
You know his determination is 2, he has high ambition, low to average loyalty, lowish to high temperament & high controversy. It doesn't tell you anything about any hidden attributes not mentioned such as pressure, sportsmanship or professionalism.
Overall he seems like he'll be a pain in the arse to deal with tbh.
If he is a newgen, then add to that Prof=5-20 (determination case 2). If he is not a newgen, then you only get what Cougar said.
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Hey guys!
How much does acceleration and pace improve? Take Sterling for example, his acceleration is 17 and his speed is 16 at the start of the game. How much faster will he be when he is 25 years old? Will his attributes be around 18-19 or will they be about the same?
If he has potential left (I don't know what his CA/PA are), there is no reason why his acceleration/pace cannot improve a lot. If you care enough, work him on Quickness to help him out.
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How to train a player's teamwork? (if trainable at all)
Can a player like Shaqiri and Thiago Alcantara, (both tw=10) reach a level like 15+ ?
Teamwork is trainable with some roles training. As is usually the case with role training, it is difficult to get a specific attribute exceptionally high. But you can pick one of the roles that involve TW (if available) and see how it goes. Of course, in such a case, you 'll be investing Ability points in the other attributes of the role too.
Note that my training facilities are below average, so I can't know whether TW becomes trainable separately with better facilities.
In the 5 years of my save, I have only had one player whose TW increased significantly (4 points within 3 years). Still, I run a LLM club with low-potential players, so it shouldn't be out of the question.
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Cheers, Jim.
I think I haven't explained "and/or" conditions very well above. So here is a practical explanation for anyone interested:
"and/or" conditions are practically useful only when you know one of the two inputs to be False. When one of the conditions is False, the other one is definitely True.
E.g., in the example of your Balanced/MediaFr player, a (hypothetical) "Professionalism=20 and/or Pressure 11" condition would tell you that Pressure=11, since you know that Prof can't be more than 14.
When you can't be sure that one of the inputs is False, "and/or" conditions won't give you information.
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Jimbokav,
OK, first of all let me clarify that I haven't checked the OP's numbers (I am not using editors currently), so I am taking them at face value. Let's start.
If Det 1-5 then Amb 10-20 is (1). Det is actually 11, so does that mean mean? I thought we had clarified that Ambition was 1-14?Since Det=11, (1) is irrelevant.
If Det 1-9 then Pro 5-20 is (2). Det is actually 11, so again what does that mean? I assume I ignore it?Yes!
If Det 1-9 then Pre 4-20 is (3). Det is actually 11, so again what does that mean? Again, I assume I ignore it?Yes!
If Det 11-20 then Spo 5-20 is (5). Ok. Det is 11-20 so does this mean that sportsmanship is not actually 1-14 but is instead 5-20. Is that right?Not quite. You have to combine Sportsm=1-14 with Sportsm=5-20. The end result is Sportsm=5-14.
(The first one tells you that Sportsm<=14. The second one tells you that Sportsm>=5. Combining them, you get Sportsm=5-14).
Not Temperamental (*) Tem 5-20 and/or Pro 11-20. Well he's not temperamental, but how do I know if this is and/or?You don't know. This can only be used when you *do* know.
In this specific case, your player is Media Friendly, which means Temp=7-20. So already the Temp-5-20 condition is satisfied. In consequence, you get no information on Professionalism from this.
Not Unambitious (3) Amb 6-20 and/or Loy 1-10. He is also not unambitious but how do I know if this is and/or and does it supercede the existing attribute windows?It does not supersede it, it is combined.
You know that Amb<=14 and Loy<=14 (because he is Balanced). So both Amb=6-20 and Loy=1-10 may be satisfied. This gives you no new information then.
Not Spirit/Jovial (5) Tem 1-9 and/or Pre 1-14. He is also not spirited/jovial but again I have the same question?He is Media Friendly, which means Temp=7-20. Combining this with the quoted condition, the information you get is that Temp=7-9 and/or Press=1-14. You can't know if Temp=7-9 is a satisfied condition, so this gives you no new information.
Not Evasive (1) Pre 1-14 and/or Pro 1-14. He's not evasive so these are accurate, but again how do I know if it is and/or?The Pro=1-14 is satisfied (because he is Balanced), so you get no information on Pressure from this.
So, in result, the information you get is:
Balanced-Media Friendly (for newgens): Prof/Amb/Loy 1-14, Sportsm=5-14, Temp=7-20, Contr=1-14.
This is all you get.
Jimbokav, I wouldn't mind if you brought another example to work through together. If you do, please try it on your own first and then we can compare our results. But it would be better if it were something different than Balanced/MediaFr which is extremely generic and does not yield much information.
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I want help with two things:
I heard that you can make your WM(A) play like IF(A), but with more defensive effort. How do you get them to play like that? I play a 4-1-4-1 with two WM(A). I tried to use cut inside and sit narrower, but I still feel they play like wingers, going down the by-line to cross at my single striker who's not really good in the air.
One way to do it is to use IF's personal instructions + get further forward.
As someone who switched from 4-1DM-2-2-1 to 4-1-4-1, my main interest is for my WM(A) (I only use one) to receive through balls from my creative lone striker. In order to achieve that, I do the following:
- Set WM(A) on get further forward + sit narrower.
- The WM(A)'s good foot should the one that would help him cut inside. E.g., if he plays on the right, his good foot should be the left one.
- The lone striker's good foot should be the one that would help him pass best towards the WM(A)'s side of the field. E.g., if the WM(A) is on the right, the striker's good foot should be the right one.
- I also find that it helps if my central midfielders stay out of my WM(A)'s way. So I usually use a DLP on that side of central midfield. Also, a WB on the same side can move up the field and stretch the opposition's defense when you are in an attacking mood.
On average (depending on player), the defensive effort of my WM(A) is much better than the IF(A)'s, but his attacking output is a bit worse. Still good enough to keep 4-1-4-1 though.
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I had a DLP(D) in the CM slot paired with a BBM, to give defensive protection, and a good passing outlet. He will also drop a bit deeper to get the ball off of the defenders. I've not really seen him have high match ratings(unlike the BBM) but I think he is still doing a good job when I watch his play in the highlights.
Also, I have recently changed my AML from an inside forward(S) to an AP(A) and with the right player(Coutinho for me), I get many assists and even Plaher of Match awards.
I have an AP(A) in midfield. He is great as long as he is not marked out of the game. Due to some aggressive PPMs I have given him (gets forward/moves into channels/shoots with power -the original plan was to make him a striker), he often both starts and finishes the moves!
Not everything is rosy though. The opponents usually man-mark him and sometimes succeed in eliminating him. In such cases I change him to CM(A), as he just loses the ball all the time otherwise. But, to answer the original question, yes, playmakers can be difference makers.
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Lyssien will you be doing training related posts again for FM15 etc? I'd love to do something more in-depth with you if we had the time
I 'd love it if we could do that, Cleon. At the moment I have no idea about my free time next year (Greek economy has been so weird since the crisis), but we can be in touch about it.
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Guys what do you do when you manage a club, that is training facilities are poor and doens't let you train Positioning, Marking, etc, on players? On those clubs I only put players training Individual Roles, but I would like to know your opinion. If this was already answered on the thread please tell, because I coulnd't find it.
Of course, train them on individual roles. Note the attributes you would like to improve and then pick a role that includes all or most of them. It does not have to be the role you will be using for the player, just as long as it is available and involves the desired attributes.
The downside of this is that a) the attributes improve slower when you train lots of them at the same time and b) you will also be working on attributes you may not be interested in (wasting both time and CA points on them). Still, you will do a decent job if you choose the role carefully.
Oh, and improve you facilities as soon as you can.
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It's down to the players attributes. But you can't recreate it often for the reasons mentioned in my post. You need a selfish type of player with good technique, dribbling, flair and aggression imo.
Cheers, Cleon.
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Reaching the byline then cutting in is quite hard to do because the byline is the end of the pitch and there really isn't any kind of space for someone to cut inside into unless there are no defenders for some reason which is highly unlikely. If someone reaches the byline then tries to cut in and he has a marker, where realistically can he go? He can't go anywhere, he's have to either start running away from goal or towards the touchline, both actions away from the goal.
I want him to reach the byline and then (only then) try to dribble his way in. I saw Robben and Christodoulopoulos (Greece) do it yesterday and I was inspired. I also remember seeing AI do it against me once, but of course I don't know what instructions AI was using. But at least it shows that it is possible within the ME.
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Question time! I 've been trying to do the "first reach the byline, THEN cut in" thingy, but have not been able to. My wingers and forwards are of poor quality, so I don't know if my failure is down to my instructions or my players. Has anyone been doing that consistently? With what instructions?
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and also on tutoring: should I try to match personalities ?
(I've been reading that Ajax thread)
Right, Cleon's Ajax thread is beyond excellent.
There is no much point really in matching personalities. The reason you tutor is that you want the youngster's personality to improve. This won't happen if personalities are already EXACTLY the same.
On the other hand, there may be a point in matching personalities when you just want to transfer the mentor's PPMs.
In addition: I have not found a way to be 100% sure that a tutoring will work or not. There must be a formula coded in that produces a probability of tutoring success every week or month, but it's probably statistical. There seems to be an increased probability of success when the personalities are not extremely different. For example, suppose you have a youngster with determination=professionalism=1 and 2 potential tutors with det=prof=6 and det=prof=12. I would probably go with the former tutor first. After I raised the youngster's det&prof attributes a bit, I would follow with the latter tutor.
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While I am here....
Äktsjon & Lyssien. You are talking about OI'sm but you seem to be getting caught up in what instruction you give against what opposition position, (ie. winger). That's not the way I see it at all. Yes of course you have a an idea in your head, but if the opposition player, (that's the player himself rather than the position he plays in), doesn't fit nicely into what you want to do, then you need to have a rethink. You are not marking a position. You are marking a player.
For this reason I always set OI's by player rather than by position. If you have a player who is going to struggle against the player you are asking him to close down/mark tightly/whatever, then no matter that you want this to happen because it suits your overall plan, it will be counter-productive.
I don't understand either hard tackling or easy tackling on wingers. What works for one winger really well might just not be suitable at all for the winger you are facing the following week, (or even in the same match but on the other flank).
Jim, sure, I was talking about the generic case. If I find no particular reason to use something different, I gravitate towards easy tackling against wingers. That's what I meant.
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On wingers, yes. Tight marking and hard tackling.
I find easy tackling to work best on wingers. My fullbacks then are more inclined to try to stop the cross than to win the ball back and the defending is more robust. But you may still have some trouble if the wingers are much faster than your FBs and hug the line.
Anyway, you 'd better follow Cleon's suggestion first, so that you see what difference the OI make afterwards.
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There is a Media Handling Style called "Plays Mind Games" which is not described in the OP. Can someone check to see what it is about? I am not using editors currently so I can't.
Note that "Plays Mind Games" seems to only be available to player/coaches and coaches. Still, would be useful to know.
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This is already in the game but it doesn't work yearly. It's more random and tends to only happen to newgens but they can see their personality get better or worse due to off field events and we can't control this. I like this feature a lot but it should be a lot more prominent imo.
I think personality in general is underused on FM and it should have a bigger impact on things like playing styles and be more linked to the tactic/training side of the game.
Agreed! One thing I was thinking is that in this game I love professional players, while IRL I find my nothing-more-than-professional peers to be completely boring in the way they are approaching their job
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Thanks for the reply and advice guys:)
I just hired a Head of Youth(With a professional personality and unflapple MH) a month before the regen date and i actually got a full team of professionals and fairly professionals come though although they didnt have much potential which is probably due to the club I am at!. I did how ever get one Model Professional with great potential so i decided to get someone with Fairly ambitions to tutor him. After his tutoring he had lowered to professional so im wondering if i shouldve just left him untutored?
Right, I personally wouldn't have done the tutoring.
Model Professional: Professionalism 20, Ambition unclear
Fairly Ambitious: Professionalism 1-14, Ambition 15-20
You tutored your youngster with someone with lower professionalism, so his professionalism was reduced to 18-19. Be glad it did not reduce further.
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This is a fantastic thread and this is not a criticism of any sort to what Cleon is doing and showing us, but doesn't tutoring just carry to much weight in the game?
Well, you cannot expect Unambitious & Unprofessional youngsters to develop IRL either, can you? I think they 've gotten this part right. The problem with FM is that -with the exception of tutoring- personalities are more or less static. That is what makes tutoring so important. I guess it would be great if SI made personalities dynamic in the future. E.g., they can set the hidden attributes (and determination) to change randomly (+-1, seperately for each personality attribute) every year with some small probability. As a matter of fact, I like this idea so much that I am going to post it in the wishlist thread right now.
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Hi newbie here. Ive played FM for years and always tried to develop my youth team but until i read this thread i always went for determination only. I usually go my local team which is Livingston in the Scottish Championship so my finances are terrible so i have a lot of work to do before i can achieve much.
I have read your thread and that of MH breakdowns.
My main questions about developing youth is...
Say i have a player with a balanced personality and i want to make him have high professionalism, high ambition and high determination.
Do i just find a tutor who has all these to begin with or do i first find a tutor with high ambition, then a tutor with high professionalism then lastly tutor him with someone with high determination?
Or do i find a tutor with an ambitious personality with a media handling style that has high professionalism?
Or do i find an ambitious tutee and get a professional with high determination to tutor him? or do i get a professional tutee and tutor him with a determined tutor?
Also if i have tutored someone with a tutor with high ambition, then use a different tutor with high professionalism and low ambition.
Will the player being tutored have his ambition lowered because of this or will he come out of it with high ambition and professionalism?
Is there a set order to train the stats in i.e. ambition first, then professionalism then determination?
I guess what im trying to say is will tutoring have a negative effect on a previously boosted hidden stat. Is determination the only stat that is lowered because of tutoring?
i.e. tutor 1 passes on high ambition, tutor 2 passes on high professionalism, tutor 3 passes on high determination, result is a young player with higher stats in all 3 areas.
One more thing and it may have been covered so i apologise. Whats the top Personalities a tutor should have?(i understand that model citizen is desirable, i guess i mean the personalities like fairy determined, fairly professional etc, or are the pure ones more desirable like professional and determined) and whats the top media handling styles?
Sorry my English isnt that great and sorry in advance if you have explained this before or if ive repeated myself. I hope ive made sense lol.
Great thread and thanks for your time!
As Cleon has not been around for a couple of days, I 'll answer a couple of questions here. I hope Cleon won't mind.
Tommii,
In tutoring, the attributes of the youngster (the ones that are affected by tutoring) will tend to change towards the attributes of the tutor. So if a tutor has lower Ambition than the youngster, the youngster's Ambition will tend to lower. I say "tend to" because tutoring is not always successful.
Therefore, the ideal scenario is the following: You find a tutor who is better at all hidden attributes than the youngster. In order to reach conclusion for the hidden attributes, you take into account *both* Personality Description and Media Handling Style and reach aggregate conclusions on all possible hidden attributes.
Sometimes the above scenario is not possible, because you don't have a good enough tutor available or you don't have information on some of the hidden attributes that interest you. There are 3 ways to handle this:
a) You go sign or loan a player who fulfils all your requirements to do the tutoring. Keep in mind that he has to be 23yo or older, have better reputation than the youngster (check that in their information screen, equal reputation -as a description- may sometimes work too) and when you sign him give him a better squad status than the youngster. There is a chance that one of them won't want to work with the other, so understand you are taking a risk.
b) If you don't have information on all the hidden attributes you are interested in, you may decide to focus on the ones you have information on and do the tutoring anyway. I guess you 'll just hope for the best regarding the ones you don't know. It is a risk, yes, so make sure the improvement in the attributes you know will worth it (e.g. professionalism).
c) Sometimes when I don't have an ideal tutor, I may decide to sacrifice a personality attribute in order to improve one that I consider more important. For example, I may have a veteran with better Professionalism and Ambition but lower Determination than the youngster. I may do the tutoring anyway (if I don't have a better option), sacrificing some of the youngster's Determination in order to improve his Professionalism & Ambition which I value more.
Doing tutorings in succession the way you described it will not work. If the first mentor has good Professionalism and the second tutor has good Ambition but low Professionalism, then the second tutoring will lower the youngster's Professionalism. So the first tutoring will go to waste.
Sometimes you can use a mediocre personality as a first tutor: A couple of seasons ago I had an Unambitious youngster with low Determination, Professionalism and Temper. There was no reason to get him a star Tutor as a first tutor. I started with a Balanced & Media Friendly tutor, who behaved and progressed well in training for all the years I had him (so his Professionalism & Ambition could not be that bad). Then, once I got my youngster to be Balanced, I moved him on to a Resolute tutor. My youngster became Resolute within 2 years.
Cleon has pre-answered your question about good tutoring personalities in the original post. But it all depends on the youngster's starting personality as well (see the example of my Unambitious youngster above).
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Can someone help me?
Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
My schedule is very unpredictable, so no promises, but I 'd love to. First I have to play the game a bit (I bought it recently) to get motivated and get ideas flowing.
Cleon, where art thou?