red dragon1978

I appreciate the criticism and this will be my last word on the subject. Herne gave me some ideas, which were perfectly valid, perfectly correct. From what herne said, I realised I had made several adjustments to a tactic which had been entirely successful, so rather than than validating my own approach, I was defending an approach which had, largely down to some excellent stuff on T&T, been highly successful and then apparently from 1 game to the next, imploded. I reset my tactic back to the original, which prior to this had been providing 1-3 goals per game, and in numerous attempts, with all my different strikers I barely managed a shot, let alone a shot on goal. I have never been good at the game, I admit that freely and openly, and I have a lot of experience of getting to a point where it no longer seems worth fighting the game, a point where I've been fighting and trying to figure things out for so long the validity and basic enjoyment has been entirely eradicated, so I delete and move on. One of these days I'll learn not to bother with the game at all, sadly I was lulled into a false sense of security this time by an excellent start. I did think morale might play a big part, I'd already experienced something of a slump in the first season which came down to my players being complacent after a great run. So I loaded different saves at different points before this rot set in, anything up to three or four games earlier, and used the assertive team talks that had bucked my team up before. No effect. I got the wins I'd had before, then got to the exact same point in the game every time...and immediately noted a total crash in shot numbers. I went back and tried being gentle and encouraging. Got the wins I'd had before...then got to the exact same point in the game and immediately noted a total crash in shot numbers. Yeah, I know I've created a lot of threads, RT and apologise. In 1 particular thread, it lead me down two different routes, so rather than those getting lost in the middle of the thread, I posted 2 new threads discussing the new ideas. If that was wrong, I again apologise, I was just trying to keep things clear for myself. I understand Overload is an all-or-nothing, last ditch mentality. Before this crash I thought I had a reasonable understanding of the game, even if I did have to keep referring back to various T&T threads to sort my head out. I had got to the point where it was an all-or-nothing, last ditch situation for my save. I'd lost all the enjoyment, gotten absolutely sick of fighting the game...again...and wanted to prove to myself that no matter what I did, I'd lose. By going all out, only to instantly concede an own goal and an unsaveable deflection, and for that all out to only produce 1 goal...and for my striker to still not make an attempt, despite previously being in the form of his life (5 goals in 3 games in the highest league he's played in) I realised that there was indeed no point continuing with this save. You're perfectly right. I obviously don't get it, but what I do get is when it's just not worth the fight any more. You may as well close this thread...and if you want to close my others, no worries.

Next match, away against Mansfield who're 18th. I don't have a single shot in the first half. I come out in the second going route 1, overload, highest line, running at defence. 2 minutes in, my goalkeeper drops the ball in his own net. Two minutes later they score a deflected screamer. Having gone 100% all out, using the most attacking version of every TI in the game, we finally score in the 87th minute and finish with an absolutely staggeringly magnificent 5 shots...and not 1 from my striker. 2 from an IF, 1 from a midfielder, and 2 from my rightback. Game deleted.

Not a good test, I know...but the next match was against Shrewsbury, of League 1. I did what I decided...4-1-2-3, Counter, slightly higher line with the offside trap, higher tempo, mixed passing directness, closing down sometimes and looking for the overlap. We battered them for 40 minutes. Then conceded a penalty. Half time we're down 1 nil and have only had 2 shots on target. I raised the tempo and the line, looking to pressure...and absolutely battered them until the 70th minute, by which time we had a whole 3 shots on target. I decided to try giving my attack more variety by switching out my DM for a deep lying forward. Within 8 minutes, we'd conceded twice. Final stats: Wrexham 13 shots. 4 on target, 6 off target. 50% possession, 5 corners, 67% pass completion, 69% tackle completion, 60% of headers won. 9 fouls, no cards. No goals. These stats are very close to what I considered normal Shrewsbury 7 shots, 3 on target, 4 off target. 50% possession, 5 corners, 68% pass completion, 54% tackle completion, 63% of headers. 6 fouls. No cards. 3 goals We equalled them, even out fought them if the tackling is to be believed. The huge differences were in attack...every shot they had on target went in, none of mine, and we had nearly double their shots but the same number on target. So there are major issues in attack. Could be just that every striker's gone off the boil. I have no idea how to solve that. And in defence....as soon as I took off the DM, I lost all defensive control of the game and it could, and should, have been about 6-0.

OK, herne...thanks I'm wanting to play a possession based style...the opponents can't score if they've not got the ball and vice versa. Given the low level of my team, I'm satisfied if we simply have more possession than the opponent...though of course it's more important to have useful possession than possession for the sake of it. Last season I averaged over 53% possession for the season, and before this collapse, 51%. Now I'm lucky to get 40% in a match. I did extremely well last year with my attacking 4-2-4 but when I used it early on in the season I got absolutely over-run. Luckily I had this 4-1-2-3 working at that point! That's why I opted for the DM...I was encouraging the fullbacks to get forward, and using the DM to shift from a defensive 4-1-2-3 to an attacking 3-4-3 or even 3-3-4. I don't have any ML or MR's, only AML/R, so I have them pushed up making a front 3 and using the fullbacks for width. I see what you're saying about going too deep...didn't realize the effect the DM would have. My intention was to play deep to draw the opposition in, then get either get it to the IF's quickly while looking to control possession with slow, patient play in the centre...basically, now you've said it I realise that's completely wrong. I'll have to rethink that...I must've done something right before. I'll have to review old games. The intention of the tactic was indeed to play in a 'relatively low risk manner' but with the three up front to be able to switch really quickly from attack to defence. Again, as you said, this is at odds with the fact I want to retain possession. From what you've said, it's looking to me like a serious problem with the build up, and with the supply. There does appear to be a slight issue with more goals conceded, but considering I'm in a higher league way before I expected to be, I'm not surprised. I'm going to try moving the line 'slightly higher' or even 'higher', remove the 'mark tightly' and only put the 'get stuck in' PI on my BWM to try and consolidate the midfield a bit more. As for the build up, I'm not sure what I want. I want to keep the opposition far away from my goal and transition from defence to attack quickly, but I want to maintain control and possession in the centre. I don't know if that's possible or if I'm trying to bang a glass drum. Thanks for the input, it's helped me start thinking more clearly. Appreciated.

Playing as Wrexham. Started in the Vanarama National, got promoted to League 2. I have 2 main formations, 4-2-4 wide and 4-1-2-3 DM wide. I like to dominate possession and control the flow of the match where possible (not easy at this level I find). The 4-2-4 has a Flexible shape, Control Mentality. I play a slightly higher line, using the offside trap. Width is balanced, passing directness mixed, and I ask my players to mark tight, get stuck in and run at defence, looking to overwhelm the opposition. I adopted the 4-1-2-3 when I got promoted. Again Flexible, it has a Counter Mentality, a slightly deeper line and is 'fairly wide'. I ask players to get stuck in, but not mark tightly, wanting to win the ball aggressively but not go searching for it. Passing is 'More Direct'. No other TI's The 4-2-4 has: Auto Duty Wingbacks, a Cover and a Defend CB. In midfield, a defensive BWM and a supporting B2B. Up front are 2 Attack Duty IF's, a Support duty striker (usually a DLF or defensive forward) and an AF or TM In the 4-1-2-3 I switch to support duty fullbacks to consolidate the back line, a defend duty DM. The midfield is the same, and up front I have the same set up apart from no Support Striker. After 63 matches, I'd won 43, drawn 14, lost 6. Scored 143, conceded 68. I'd won the National with 110 points, and lost to Torquay in the FA Trophy final. Started League 2 with the worst pre-season odds in the league, 80-1. So I was kind of hoping teams would go easy on me to start with, and it seems I was correct. I drew 1 and won 5 of the first six. Since then...played 5, won 2, drawn 1, lost 2. Not too shabby, I suppose....but it's the manner I've lost which is completely galling. A 1-1 draw, a 2-1 loss, 2-1 win, 1-0 win, 1-0 loss. In the first 6 league matches, I created 78 shots, 35 on target, scored 13, conceded 5. In the last 5, I've created 63 shots, 20 on target...but the number on target has dwindled every match. The last match was the first in my FM life I've ever seen where, in 90 minutes I failed to get a single shot on target, only amassing 9 shots in the entire game. The match before that, 11 shots, 5 on target. I initially played 4 of these matches, and they were so abominable, I rage quit. Following that, I realised that several small alterations to my 4-1-2-3 had completely wrecked it (I found early on my 4-2-4 was too attacking in League 2). I reverted back to the tactic as described, the tactic that had proved so effective. Then, so as not to fully benefit from the information gained after the rage quit, I went on holiday and replayed those 4. I then moved onto the last game I played. Me in first, against Hartlepool in third. As advised by my assistant, I calmly told my players to 'go out and prove a point' (because we were tipped to lose). This has never failed to motivate my team, and it didn't in this case, every player lit up green and motivated. We played...almost.. as well as ever. 50% possession, we usually have it in the mid 50s. 68% pass completion, 73% of headers won and 76% of tackles. And not 1 shot on target. In fact, with no players on shoot more often, no players roaming, I only amassed 1 shot in the area...a defenders header from a corner. My AF only took 1 shot...from by the corner flag! I noted early on that the opposition was crowding the area, so I widened the play and attempted floated crosses from the wing. Only problem was...my striker kept coming out to receive the ball on the wing and passing it into the space he'd just vacated, while the IF who should've been either crossing the ball or attacking the box stood next to him like I'd asked him to 'stand with taker' in a free kick situation. I know it's not the game, I'm not blaming the game. What I am blaming is my complete inability to understand why a tactic that was so effective can, and has, apparently fallen apart overnight. I confess that was pretty much luck..I dove into the T&T threads and stickies, and the make up of the squad I inherited forced me to go with an attacking 4-2-4, which as I've said proved remarkably dominant. I've re read all the threads and stickies...I wouldn't have got nearly this far without Lines & Diamonds, The First 15 Minutes, Building a Tactic and Maintaining it Long Term etc. But now my game has completely collapsed, nothing is working and I'm at an absolute loss as to why. I don't have players set to roam, and yet they seem to roam. I've asked players not to take long shots, and they take pot shots from 30-50 yards. I ask them to close down and they don't, to get stuck in and they stay on their feet..and I ask them to stay on their feet and they go in 2 footed and get red carded! Any and all thoughts, ideas and criticisms welcome...there's probably things in those tactics that'll have the better players weeping, for which I apologise.

I've just gone from a league destroying 5 losses in 53 to a faith destroying 5 losses in 7. I too would love someone to sit down with me and sort this!

Tell me about it. I just stopped winning, and I can't start again. I realised I'd made some serious tactical errors, reverted to a very successful tactic...then proceeded to lose 5 of the next 7, having previously lost 5 in 53. Final straw was a team winning 93% of tackles and 91% of headers, completely nullifying any attack through the middle, from the side, direct or worked into the box...I didn't get a shot until the 38th minute, a shot on target didn't come till the 73rd. By which time I was 4-0, having only conceded 5 shots. The archetypal rage-quit enducing mind blow of a typical FM game lol. Oh btw they were 11th, I was top!

Ouch. Yeah, it's horrible when this game bites you like that. Again, I'm not the best, by a long way, person to talk to about this...head over to Tactics and Training and see what they can tell you.

I wouldn't be able to either, mate....and in fact I'm in EXACTLY the same situation. My IF hit 23 last season, and in the first 5 has barely had a sniff. I've done some very stupid things with my tactics, like having him 'roam'...he now ends up so far from the goal he's almost a fifth defender at times! Or it could be that he's up against better players. I simply don't know. Adjusting my tactics might help. As for the training....I wouldn't just do that, I'd make sure they were tired first, or that you have a run of a lot of games....too little training might well lower their performance, and you definitely don't need that!

I play at completely the other end of the spectrum, non league in England. So my thoughts might not apply to a team your size. I have no idea. However, last season I was expected to finish mid table, and similar to you, with 10 games to go I was top...by 20 points...and in a cup final. Then I had a run of four games in 6 against teams 15th or below, and 2 from 4th to 10th. And we really, really struggled. Because we were doing so well, my players had become complacent. A few assertive or aggressive team talks, being more demanding and challenging, and we picked right back up. It might be a similar situation for you. Also, I've never had much success in the game but have heard a lot about teams tightening up when they realise how good you actually are...or at least how well your team is playing. I've just had it happen to me for the first time, and the only way to describe it is brutal...admittedly I've messed up the tactics and need to rework them, but I've gone from winning to the exact scenario you describe overnight. So check your team talk reports, check your tactics, watch games to see how teams are playing against you, see if you can see something new, and maybe even check the fitness of your team and the level of training. I had to lower my training towards the end of last season because we had a run of a lot of games with very little time between them at the end of the season, thanks to games in hand because of the cup.

I have to disagree. I'm the first to admit, I'm absolutely terrible at this game, always have been. But recent posts on T&T have helped me to my best season ever, with 126 goals in 53...there's definitely no bias to the defence. However, it's a known fact that teams do tighten up when they realise you're more of a threat than they thought...believe me, the first 6 games of the season were 'easy' for me, and then it literally fell apart overnight. However, I know it's a tactical issue....as I said earlier, I've messed around with my tactic too much and completely wrecked it. It can be incredibly annoying....I'm still trying to work out how to get back into it after really mucking it up, rage quitting etc, but I know the most important fact....it's not the game, it's me. Accepting it is the next step, then moving forward, re-assessing and if necessary rebuilding your system.

Thanks, David...that's what I feared! Wasn't sure if it would happen to quickly or so brutally. I didn't mean 'nefarious FM Gods'...though I believe in those the same way I believe in ghosts, I'm not entirely convinced they don't exist, but not sure they exist either lol. What I meant was, could it be my players not coping with the speed or pressures of a new league, or becoming complacent after 5 wins, something like that. In hindsight, I've done what I said I would...I've sat back and re-examined my tactics and realised that I've stupidly messed up....I made tiny adjustments for certain matches and situations, and forgot to undo them. Cumulatively, they've wrecked my tactic so that, not only are teams now taking me seriously but my tactic that was so devastating last season has been almost completely compromised and shorn of it's fluency and attacking intent. Luckily that can be easily dealt with...the teams upping their game, not so much. Nor getting back into the game after such a stupid reaction. I hate when I rage quit, but just can't stop myself sometimes. I do it every version, and I confess I never learn. I think what I'm going to do is, make the adjustments I've identified, then go on holiday for those 5 games I rage quit and take whatever I get from those.

Sorry to burst your bubble mate...I'm a IRL Wrexham fan and there's NOTHING new in that result LOL!! Seriously though, well done...that's one of those things you don't think is possible until someone, somehow, goes and does it. Hats off to you!!

I am lousy at Football Manager. I've never had a long term career, and I haven't been able to play a version properly since about 12. However, with FM16, and some brilliant advice on T&T, I found myself enjoying a decent run in FM for the first time in years. Until now. I got my team, Wrexham, promoted from the Vanarama National into League 2. Total shock, we were expected to be mid-table. Now in League 2, my odds are 80-1. Using similar tactics to last season, which effectively destroyed the league, I took the 16 of the first 18 points and am top. As someone said in another thread, it's highly likely that for those 6 matches I was seen as the new boys, the 80-1 relegation candidates you can take it easy against, try new players, etc. I understand that. However, teams have now woken up, it seems. I confess to having now rage quit four times. I've played matches 7-11 five times now. That's 25 matches. And I've won 1. Lost 24. Barely getting a shot on target, losing to the only shot my opponents have. Tried different tactics, different formations, different set ups. I know this isn't the way to do it, I know it's not likely to give me 'accurate results', but it does indicate the sudden emergence of a pattern I've not seen before. In short, everything that drives people insane about this game. I'm not asking for help in my game. I know it's my tactics, I know it's my inability to read the game, and I know some of it is probably down in some way to luck, and I know that the solution is likely staring me in the face. Tomorrow I'll give it one last shot with T&T. But, having never had real success before from which to fall, I'm just wondering if this spectacularly instantaneous collapse is normal for a very low level team when teams start taking you seriously...or is there some other factor at work? It seems to be the...if I'm reading other peoples problems correctly...usual drying up of chances. Players are getting into the box and missing from 2 yards, either into the side netting or across the face of goal...these are players who last season, during the friendlies and the first 5 matches of the season were really prolific. Teams have definitely tightened up, I'm often counting five, six, seven outfield players in and around the area when I'm attacking...but then my 6'4 TM is losing headers right, left and centre so pumping the ball into the box doesn't work. I've watched more goals than I can remember where the opposition have literally passed the ball through my entire team, from their box to mine, without any of my players (who are on tight marking and get stuck in) even attempting a tackle. My players are playing ok...I'm still getting regular 6.8-7.4 performances through the team, it's just that my attack has completely dried up and my defence often simply doesn't, well, defend. Like I said, I'm not seeking tactical help....I'm well used to walking away from FM, and am perfectly happy to do so once again. I'd just be interested to know if what is happening is what I think it is...teams tightening up in defence and simply upping their game in attack. At least knowing my enemy will give me a chance of fixing the issue. Thanks

Terran, I know where you're coming from. I've had a lot of problems like you with various incarnations of FM....practically every one since 12, in fact. I was in exactly the same position with FM15 as you are apparently with this. And I know how utterly bewildering the T&T can be. But believe me, it works. You first need to take a deep breath, sit back and decide how you want to play. From there you can pick and choose the best threads, and pull out the information you need. Unfortunately Football Manager isn't, as you obviously know, the sort of game that has 'a solution'. You don't go into that room, deal with that bad guy, etc. I've found other peoples tactics fail me too...because they're not set up for my team and its situation. And because I'm pretty lousy at the game lol. I spent hours reading various threads on T&T and it resulted in my best season in FM, ever. It just takes time and a little forward thinking. Once you know how you want to play, how other teams might play against you, and the players at your disposal, you can begin to use the information in T&T to develop tactics and ideas. There are a number of incredibly good threads in the 'stickies' and I can't tell you how useful I found 'Lines and Diamonds'. Success won't happen instantly, FM doesn't work like that. But give it time, work through issues....talk to people on here and you'll vastly increase your chances of getting somewhere. Good luck with it.